Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland
Hi folks, As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself. So having left the IRC channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well. I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing in December 2018. I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the Talk IE mailing list. Thanks to all who have helped me over the years, Clive aka KDDA ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
Hi, I am a bit surprised that an editing war or even a block would even be considered in this case! This user has been editing from 2009 and has 11k edits under their belt. They are obviously very passionate and dedicated to OSM and have gone to a lot of trouble and spent a lot of time to research the road reference numbers. I really do believe you are going to hit a lot more resistance to this bulk/ mass edit and are quite frankly going to really annoy a lot of long time contributors in the process. I also know for a fact if you made this edit in N. Ireland, I would be doing the same thing as tms13 is doing. How can this issue be resolved without alienating and driving away long time contributors to OSM? With kind regards, KDDA On Thursday, 16 August 2018 14:24:11 IST Dave F wrote: > Hi > > A contributor has been reverting my changesets over the past few days: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tms13/history#map=7/56.741/-4.252 > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/61655207 > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/61623830#map=11/56.4828/-3.2425 > > As I don't wish to get into an edit war & believe blocking is a last > resort, would it be possible if a couple of others attempt to help him > understand the reasons. > > Cheers > DaveF > > On 04/08/2018 00:47, Dave F wrote: > > Hi > > > > After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' > > class roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in > > the database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On Saturday, 4 August 2018 10:56:19 IST Dave F wrote: > > In my particular area I have people "helicopting in" to remove the C and U > > numbers off the roads, just because they don't like the way it renders! > > But the fact is that none of the rural roads have signs giving the name, > > so just because my local council can't agree on putting up signs on the > > road I live on, it shouldn't have a name on OSM? > > The 'refs' are numerical numbers not the name. They aren't being removed > from the database. The general belief is if they're not signed on the > ground they shouldn't be rendered on the 'standard' map. > > It should be noted 'your' area does not have an air exclusion zone. > > DaveF And what I'm saying is that the names are also not signed on the ground. So in this case,are you saying these also shouldn't be rendered on the "standard" map either? No, my area doesn't have an air exclusion zone, but I personally have put in considerable time and effort gathering the data to add into the database, and I don't appreciate it being removed by people who have absolutely no understanding of the situation "on the ground" here in Fermanagh. I have also put a lot of effort into convincing local businesses and organisations to use OSM based on having the very features this thread proposes to remove! The information has also helped prevent tourists/cyclists from getting lost in the area due to the lack of signposts. A map with clearly marked C roads allows better route planning and also an indication of the road conditions likely to be encountered. In general a C road indicates a road wide enough for two vehicles to pass by (mostly), compared to an unclassified road which are narrow, overgrown and basically should only be used for local access only. Ok, let me give you an example of the lack of roadsigns here, this is a local crossroads. All roads here have reference numbers and names. Apologies for using Streetview, I am only using it to show you what is actually on the ground. All OSM data in the area was sourced by survey, local study, Bing or out-of-copyright maps obtained via OSMIE. https://goo.gl/maps/7amxE7w17Fq So I hear a urgent traffic update on the radio that there was a forest fire on the C425 Eshnadarragh Road and that the Fire Service have closed the road due to the pumping equipment needed to fight the fire. Unfortunately, this is also the road I planned on taking to get to my B I'm staying at. Using the signposts seen "on the ground", which road is closed? This is the area on OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/54.29138/-7.27969 Now there are lots of ways around this road closure, but the most logical one would be via an unclassified road. But due to other road users also taking this U road, it would be an absolute nightmare if you kept meeting people on this type of road. You want to easily plot an alternative route, using C or better roads. Here is an example of how local media give the data - http:// www.impartialreporter.com/news/14181974.Fermanagh_Flooding__Road_Closures/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On Saturday, 4 August 2018 14:48:56 IST Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Killyfole and District Development Association wrote: > > Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? > > Right. C road numbers are not on the ground. (With the exception of the 20 > or so listed here: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/photo/c-roads .) What do you define as on the ground? The road is there, it has a classification and name set by the local authority. Hence setting the ref= and name= tags. In County Fermanagh, none of the rural roads have signs like they do in other parts of the UK. So you are basically saying that because the names aren't on a sign, they shouldn't have name tags in OSM? How do you suggest they are tagged then? All the local media use the road reference numbers when talking about diversions and road closures. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
I don't understand the logic of doing this?
Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? If a road
has a reference number or a name, surely it is up to the render if it should
show that information or not, not how we tag it in the database?
In my particular area I have people "helicopting in" to remove the C and U
numbers off the roads, just because they don't like the way it renders! But
the fact is that none of the rural roads have signs giving the name, so just
because my local council can't agree on putting up signs on the road I live
on, it shouldn't have a name on OSM?
Again in my area this is the reason OpenStreetMap is gaining a lot of ground
compared to other maps, because it shows the road names and reference numbers
which are useful for locals and people trying to find their way around. For
example, the local media will give a list of road names and reference numbers
during times of flood to indicate what roads locals should avoid. There are
no other comparable maps which show this information, only OSM and a lot of
people now use OSM because of that.
Just because a local authority doesn't signpost something, does not mean it
doesn't exist or isn't useful to local people.
Just my two cents on the this, and I would very strongly object to this being
carried out in County Fermanagh.
KDDA
On Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:47:20 IST Dave F wrote:
> Hi
>
> After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' class
> roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the
> database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered.
>
> This is a list of the discussions (there maybe others):
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-May/011632.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-March/014555.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-April/014788.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-August/016392.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-May/017390.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-May/017414.html
>
> However this task was never undertaken. I decided to grab the bull by
> the horns.
>
> I used variations of this Overpass query within JOSM to find the
> numerous 'C' refs keys (listed below) tagged to the different road
> classification.
> I uploaded in batches split by geography &/or tag values to make it
> easier for me to verify
> I used detailed changeset descriptions to make it easier to rectify if
> needed. If you spot any errors please let me know.
>
> [maxsize:2073741824];
> area(id:3600058447,3600058437,3600058446); // England, Wales, Scotland
> //[bbox:{{bbox}}];
>way[highway=*highway classification"][~ref~"^C[0-9]{1,4}$"] (area);
> //out tags;
> //out center;
> (._;>;); out meta;
>
> *Various keys used for 'C' refs:
> (listed most popular down)
> * ref
> official_ref
> admin_ref
> admin:ref
> wcc_ref
> highway_ref
> designation
> offical_ref
> int_ref
> unsigned_ref
> reference
> local_ref
>
> *Highway classes with 'C' refs:*
> **(listed most popular down)**
> tertiary (+_link)
> unclassified
> trunk (+_link)
> residential (error?)
> service (error?)
> pedestrian (error? Roads converted to pedestrian, but still classified?)
> track (error/prow_ref?)
> secondary (+_link)
> primary
>
> I've amended them to *'highway_authority_ref*'. It was discussed in the
> May '15 thread where it was felt official_ref or admin_ref wasn't
> specific enough. Feel free to discuss here if you have strong objections
> to it. If there's a consensus to change it's quite easy now they're all
> under a single tag.
>
> Note I didn't include Northern Ireland as I'm unsure whether they're
> signed on the ground or not. Is anyone able to verify?
>
> These are the trunk, primary & secondary roads which previously either
> had a ref or highway_authority_ref:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/AM7
>
> Similarly these are the pedestrian, service, residential & track
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/AM8
>
> These still have 'ref' tags: proposed, abandoned, construction, path,
> footway & cycleway; possibly copy paste errors or should be prow_ref?:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/AMc
>
> Please amend if you have local knowledge & believe any of the above are
> an error.
>
> Cheers
> DaveF
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