Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Dan S]

Op ma 3 sep. 2018 om 19:06 schreef Toby Speight :
>
> >> Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
> >> Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!
>
> 0> In article ,
> 0> Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com> ("Martin") wrote:
>
> Martin> Northern Ireland is part of the UK but it's not part of GB.
>
> But UK is just an informal name for GB - The United Kingdom of Great
> Britain and Northern Ireland.  It even has "Northern Ireland" in the
> name.  GB without Northern Ireland would just be England, Scotland and
> Wales or the island of Britain.

Please allow me to differ: "UK is an informal name for GB" is not
completely correct. The naming of these islands is utterly confusing -
I blame history! This wikipedia page and the Venn diagram are useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles
So. The official name of the state is "The United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland". Often abbreviated to "UK". "Great
Britain", often abbreviated to "GB", is the name for that biggest
island within that state. HOWEVER, that doesn't settle the matter,
because "GB" is also used officially to refer to the UK (in
particular, via ISO3166).
So if we see the initials "GB" without any context, we can't work out
if the intention is to include NI or not - but in practice, people are
usually referring to the whole state, and often don't know there's any
difference.

Of course, all this terminological back-and-forth is pedantic and I'm
sorry to extend it, since the original issues are more important for
us. I repeat my call for the "talk-gb" moderators to update the
description on https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb to
explicitly say it's for all of the UK, if indeed it is. That way, we
have an anchoring point that could settle these discussions nicely...

Best
Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Toby Speight]

>> Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
>> Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!

0> In article ,
0> Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com> ("Martin") wrote:

Martin> Northern Ireland is part of the UK but it's not part of GB.

But UK is just an informal name for GB - The United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland.  It even has "Northern Ireland" in the
name.  GB without Northern Ireland would just be England, Scotland and
Wales or the island of Britain.

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Andrew Hain]

Although Dave’s edits left out Northern Ireland, 
(https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-gb@openstreetmap.org/msg16162.html) the 
question of whether similar edits should take place there was left open.

--
Andrew

From: Brian Prangle 
Sent: 29 August 2018 13:20
To: Dave F; Talk GB; Killyfole and District Development Association
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

 I thought that you said  c roads would remain in NI but judging by Clive's 
reaction I thought something must have changed. He's obviously not convinced 
that c roads are going to remain in NI so perhaps you should  make it even more 
abundantly and explicitly clear that this is the case and have it documented 
clearly in all the right places. Can I suggest that perhaps you might also 
benefit from your own advice when making  future country-wide automatic edits

Regards

Brian

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 21:42, Dave F 
mailto:davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>> wrote:


On 28/08/2018 20:24, Brian Prangle wrote:
>  I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI.
>

I wish people would read before putting their hands anywhere near a
keyboard.

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Adam Snape]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 22:26 Martin Wynne,  wrote:

>
> > Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
> > Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!
>
> Hi Toby,
>
> Northern Ireland is part of the UK but it's not part of GB.
>
> GB is England, Scotland and Wales.
>
> The official title of this country is "The United Kingdom of Great
> Britain and Northern Ireland".
>
> regards,
>
> Martin.
>
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Referring to Great Britain that's entirely correct. However as a country
code, GB is often used to refer to the whole UK, egs. Car plates, Team GB,
and, of course this very list Talk-GB which very definitely does include NI.

Fwiw, I don't think it's unreasonable to request that the discussion of NI
specific issues is done separately from the discussion of a non-NI
changeset. Nor does the fact that someone took umbrage at that request
necessarily mean that the request itself was insensitive.

Regards,

Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Dave F]

On 29/08/2018 20:35, Toby Speight wrote:

Wou> ... GB doesn't include Northern Ireland, ...

Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!

Sorry Toby, but it's you who's been misinformed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Martin Wynne]

Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!


Hi Toby,

Northern Ireland is part of the UK but it's not part of GB.

GB is England, Scotland and Wales.

The official title of this country is "The United Kingdom of Great 
Britain and Northern Ireland".


regards,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Toby Speight]

0> In article 
,
0> Dan S. mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com> ("Dan") wrote:

Dan> The documentation happened after-the-fact rather than in advance,
Dan> as the AECoC demands.

There's still no documentation on the tag wiki at [1] or [2].
Interestingly, there is a mention of "unsigned_ref" [3] that's close to
what's proposed.  Perhaps that could be a way forward?

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref >
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway_authority_ref >
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:unsigned_ref >

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Toby Speight]

0> In article <6591308.YUxS5xHkjF@solus>,
0> WebMaster@Killyfole org uk mailto:webmas...@killyfole.org.uk> ("Wou") 
wrote:

Wou> ... GB doesn't include Northern Ireland, ...

Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Brian Prangle]

Thanks for your polite request Richard. I stand by my assessment, based not
on your intentions or character but based on the result. Regards  Brian

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 21:40, Richard Fairhurst 
wrote:

> Brian Prangle wrote:
> > I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI.
>
> The edit did not take place in Northern Ireland, as Dave stated
> unequivocally in his original mail: "Note I didn't include Northern
> Ireland"
> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2018-August/021690.html
> )
>
> > The last time I checked NI was still in a union with the UK and therefore
> > suggesting that NI OSMers form a separate discussion  is very
> insensitive.
>
> I suggested the separate discussion on this topic _because_ Northern
> Ireland, as Dave had explained (and as I had reiterated to KDDA one minute
> previously), was not included in this edit; and therefore was not germane
> to
> the discussion of this edit. I'd therefore ask that you please withdraw
> your
> accusation of being insensitive.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Brian Prangle]

 I thought that you said  c roads would remain in NI but judging by Clive's
reaction I thought something must have changed. He's obviously not
convinced that c roads are going to remain in NI so perhaps you should
make it even more abundantly and explicitly clear that this is the case and
have it documented clearly in all the right places. Can I suggest that
perhaps you might also benefit from your own advice when making  future
country-wide automatic edits

Regards

Brian

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 21:42, Dave F  wrote:

>
>
> On 28/08/2018 20:24, Brian Prangle wrote:
> >  I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI.
> >
>
> I wish people would read before putting their hands anywhere near a
> keyboard.
>
> DaveF
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Dave F]

On 28/08/2018 20:24, Brian Prangle wrote:

 I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI.



I wish people would read before putting their hands anywhere near a 
keyboard.


DaveF


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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Richard Fairhurst]

Brian Prangle wrote:
> I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI.

The edit did not take place in Northern Ireland, as Dave stated
unequivocally in his original mail: "Note I didn't include Northern Ireland"
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2018-August/021690.html)

> The last time I checked NI was still in a union with the UK and therefore
> suggesting that NI OSMers form a separate discussion  is very insensitive.

I suggested the separate discussion on this topic _because_ Northern
Ireland, as Dave had explained (and as I had reiterated to KDDA one minute
previously), was not included in this edit; and therefore was not germane to
the discussion of this edit. I'd therefore ask that you please withdraw your
accusation of being insensitive.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Dan S]

For reference, here's DaveF's email where he documents his mechanical
edit: 
.
(Note also that it includes a note about Northern Ireland.)

Comparing that email against the OSM policy which Brian links to (the
Automated Edits Code of Conduct): This talk-gb seems indeed the
correct forum. The documentation happened after-the-fact rather than
in advance, as the AECoC demands. It seems relatively innocent in this
case given the consensus implied by previous threads (eg the ones
listed in DaveF's email), and I guess he took that as sufficient for
the "discussion period" - however, I agree it'd be much better to have
followed the automated-edits rules more closely, and given prior
notice of the actual edit with at least a few days' pause for
discussion. I'd have hoped the dissenters could have joined that
discussion (could we have notified them directly of the chance to join
in, just to be sure?).

I did an automated edit once, and although I was impatient at the lag
created by following the AECoC, the resulting clarity was a definite
good thing.

Dan


Op di 28 aug. 2018 om 20:25 schreef Brian Prangle :
>
> The last time I checked NI was still in a union with the UK and therefore 
> suggesting that NI OSMers form a separate discussion  is very insensitive. As 
> the community there is very upset and has not agreed to this change, having 
> demonstrated very specific needs and separate treatment of these roads I 
> suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI. Can I also 
> suggest that all future mechanical edits that affect the WHOLE UK  (including 
> NI) are discussed beforehand as required by  OSM policy before being 
> unilaterally applied so that we can avoid situations like this
>
> Brian Prangle
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 13:05, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern
>> Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.  So having left the IRC
>> channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.
>>
>> I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing in
>> December 2018.  I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the Talk 
>> IE
>> mailing list.
>>
>> Thanks to all who have helped me over the years,
>>
>> Clive aka KDDA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Brian Prangle]

The last time I checked NI was still in a union with the UK and therefore
suggesting that NI OSMers form a separate discussion  is very insensitive.
As the community there is very upset and has not agreed to this change,
having demonstrated very specific needs and separate treatment of these
roads I suggest at the very least that the change is reverted for NI. Can I
also suggest that all future mechanical edits that affect the WHOLE UK
(including NI) are discussed beforehand as required by  OSM policy

before being unilaterally applied so that we can avoid situations like this

Brian Prangle

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 13:05, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk <
webmas...@killyfole.org.uk> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern
> Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.  So having left the IRC
> channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.
>
> I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing
> in
> December 2018.  I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the
> Talk IE
> mailing list.
>
> Thanks to all who have helped me over the years,
>
> Clive aka KDDA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Dan S]

As an aside - if ISO3166 meaning of "GB" is indeed intended (i.e.
UKoGBaNI), I wonder if someone could update the info on
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb> to clarify that?
Currently says "General discussion for users in Great Britain"

Best
Dan
Op di 28 aug. 2018 om 13:15 schreef Andrew Hain :
>
> Imposing strict boundaries on OSM communication channels (in this case a 
> non-ISO3166 meaning for a talk list) is out of order and is not a proper 
> response to any disagreement anyone may have about tagging.
>
> --
> Andrew 
> From: webmas...@killyfole.org.uk 
> Sent: 28 August 2018 13:04:20
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland
>
> Hi folks,
>
> As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern
> Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.  So having left the IRC
> channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.
>
> I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing in
> December 2018.  I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the Talk IE
> mailing list.
>
> Thanks to all who have helped me over the years,
>
> Clive aka KDDA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Frederik Ramm]

Clive,

On 28.08.2018 14:04, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk wrote:
> As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern 
> Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself. So having left the IRC 
> channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.

If even Germans don't keep their opinions to themselves on this list,
then why should people from Northern Ireland ;)

I'd urge you to reconsider. If someone seriously took the bigoted
approach to "othering" you on IRC just because the list was called
talk-gb then I'm sure the community will stand behind you and not behind
whoever said that, and an apology is in order.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Richard Fairhurst]

webmas...@killyfole.org.uk wrote:
> As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include 
> Northern Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.

No-one told you to keep your opinions to yourself; I simply suggested you
start a separate Northern Ireland-centric discussion (beginning with
comments on any offending changesets) if edits were being made contrary to
the wishes of the community there, rather than derailing a discussion about
a tag change in Great Britain.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Andrew Hain]

Imposing strict boundaries on OSM communication channels (in this case a 
non-ISO3166 meaning for a talk list) is out of order and is not a proper 
response to any disagreement anyone may have about tagging.

--
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From: webmas...@killyfole.org.uk 
Sent: 28 August 2018 13:04:20
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

Hi folks,

As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern
Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.  So having left the IRC
channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.

I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing in
December 2018.  I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the Talk IE
mailing list.

Thanks to all who have helped me over the years,

Clive aka KDDA







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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[webmas...@killyfole.org.uk]

Hi folks,

As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern 
Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself.  So having left the IRC 
channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well.

I will also be canceling my OSMUK membership or failing that, not renewing in 
December 2018.  I can still be reached via OSM username:KDDA or on the Talk IE 
mailing list.

Thanks to all who have helped me over the years,

Clive aka KDDA







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