Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
John, You might clarify what HA means by Plans. Typically major road projects will be designed by one of the big UK or international Engineering firms (AECOM, Atkins, Jacobs etc etc) who produce drawings of the project that are used at various stages from planning through to construction. The HA almost certainly have these drawings (Plans), especially those that are used at planning and consultation stages. They may well also have them as electronic CAD files which may or may not be loaded into some HA GIS system, I don't know. Once a project is built the Contractor hands over as-built data/drawings which then go into the record files of the HA, local authority etc. The Ordnance Survey reference these for their mapping but at some point will also re-survey (air or manual). Anyway, regardless of the format the base for all these drawings and electronic files is a mix of Ordnance Survey Mastermap data with additional data gathered during a topographical survey by the Engineering Firm during the planning and design process. Copyrights for data gathered by the Engineering firm normally get transferred to the client who pays for the work, so in theory the copyright will be a mix of OS and HA or whoever the ultimate client is. At the end of the day, as mappers knowing when a new road is being built is useful enough for our needs. The HA only builds a proportion of our new infrastructure and feeds from Local Authorities are just as useful for spotting new development (In Birmingham we follow planning application notices to get a heads up). Knowing exactly the alignment of a new road is less important because we can map it to the same degree of accuracy as every other road OSM has from GPS, and eventually aerial imagery. I don't see the earlier responses to this thread as a sign of negativity. Obviously a dialogue with the HA would be very beneficial and could lead to useful data being made available to us under terms that are acceptable. However it is wrong to think that all the data big organisations hold is useful to OSM, in my experience its often not, either because of licence issues, or because of reliability and verifiability of the data itself. Unfortunately our institutions and government bodies hold an awful lot of poor quality data, its one of the reasons they are interested in working with OSM. The DfT NapTAN dataset being a very good example. Best of luck with the further discussions. Cheers Andy From: John Baker [mailto:rovas...@hotmail.com] Sent: 06 July 2014 00:57 To: Rob Nickerson; Talk-GB Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM Rob, To be fair when I did post that there had been a lack of interest. I asked could we use the OS maps we currently use and nothing. I asked what people do currently and nothing. You are the first to say that this could/should be ok. I am glad to see that someone is using this approach currently. This is about getting a process in place so they use the correct data. They have many types of data and we just need them to use the correct one (i.e Opendata) so we can map with confidence. There was a desire to get the correct data so we can use it. He didn't really understand and thought everything was ok (it is PD..., etc) I said I need to check as we cannot use all different types of copyright material some OS stuff could/should be ok. They have hundreds of different plans hopefully it shouldn't be too much of an issue to use/create another one. I will speak to them next week to see what I can sort out. John _ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 21:19:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM From: rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com To: rovas...@hotmail.com; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org On 5 July 2014 19:20, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: snip I'll let them them know about the copyright situation (which I was fully aware from day one was a concern) and there is no real interest from the OSM community for establishing this. John, Please don't tell the Highways Agency that as it is *not* the case. The blame lies with the Ordnance Survey and their reluctance to make it easy for public sector bodies to release map data based on their products. I would rather you highlight that to Highways Agency so that they know where the real blame lies. And yes, if they have maps that are based on OS OpenData (for example the OS StreetView maps) then I would love to see them. This is how we are working with Birmingham City Council to get maps of their proposed 20mph zones. Perhaps step one is to find out what they have. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
On 05/07/14 22:09, Philip Barnes wrote: Proposed highways should certainly not render, for example I drove through Uttoxeter with osmand running and the proposed highways make the map pretty confusing. But we should be able to adjust the way osmand renders the data? As long as it is tagged properly. But I've yet to get my own copy to even route properly yet via B and 'C' roads. It takes me on a 9 mile detour going north from here :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Another option to the GPS data, would be to use Mapillary to provide the latest images of the roads, and automatically a GPS trace is included too. This would mean that the images could be used for us to map alongside a feed of the changes that are known. This also has the advantage in that other surrounding things can be mapped too, and gets around any derived copyright issues in the maps that are created based on OS data. Shaun On 5 Jul 2014, at 17:47, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John, The negativity, or least lack of enthusiasm, is partly due to the complexity of the issue. We'd love to have Highways Agency data as open data but if the data is based upon Ordnance Survey data this becomes a quite tricky. Normally you would have the data holder apply for a Exemption under the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA). Even then there's not much consensus in the GB community as to whether we can actually use the data. As suggested, a better idea would be to have the Highways Agency provide us a list of upcoming projects and dates that they are expected to complete. If they have any GPS data we would be able to use that too :-) Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Hi John, The negativity, or least lack of enthusiasm, is partly due to the complexity of the issue. We'd love to have Highways Agency data as open data but if the data is based upon Ordnance Survey data this becomes a quite tricky. Normally you would have the data holder apply for a Exemption under the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA). Even then there's not much consensus in the GB community as to whether we can actually use the data. As suggested, a better idea would be to have the Highways Agency provide us a list of upcoming projects and dates that they are expected to complete. If they have any GPS data we would be able to use that too :-) Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Thanks Phil, I agree that proposed highways should only be added (and tagged as proposed) when they are certain to get built, however, we're not talking about proposed highways here. We are talking about working with the HA to get dates of road completions. Rob p.s. OSMand rendering is a matter for OSMAnd to decide. I suggest raising it with them :-) On 5 July 2014 18:11, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I am not convinced proposed highways are especially useful in OSM, until construction starts they are just ideas and break the map what we see rule. Proposed highways should certainly not render, for example I drove through Uttoxeter with osmand running and the proposed highways make the map pretty confusing. Phik (trigpoint ) On Sat Jul 05 2014 17:47:39 GMT+0100 (BST), Rob Nickerson wrote: Hi John, The negativity, or least lack of enthusiasm, is partly due to the complexity of the issue. We'd love to have Highways Agency data as open data but if the data is based upon Ordnance Survey data this becomes a quite tricky. Normally you would have the data holder apply for a Exemption under the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA). Even then there's not much consensus in the GB community as to whether we can actually use the data. As suggested, a better idea would be to have the Highways Agency provide us a list of upcoming projects and dates that they are expected to complete. If they have any GPS data we would be able to use that too :-) Rob -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
My simple non-legal logic was we could use the same OS map we are allowed to use for tracing/information. If they based them on that and released maybe that would be ok. They did say they had hundreds of maps of the ongoing works and I hoped it was the case of just selecting the right one. Well it seem no-one knows or cares if that is possible. It would have been nice to know what we can/cannot do with other data. Maybe if successful it could have been used for a blueprint for future opening up of data. I'll let them them know about the copyright situation (which I was fully aware from day one was a concern) and there is no real interest from the OSM community for establishing this. The highway agency already provides ongoing and upcoming projects on their website and have done for years. I see no value in them just sending me another list of these that I can share again. Oh well the do-ocracy system of OSM once again descends into no-ocracy. Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 17:47:39 +0100 From: rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM Hi John, The negativity, or least lack of enthusiasm, is partly due to the complexity of the issue. We'd love to have Highways Agency data as open data but if the data is based upon Ordnance Survey data this becomes a quite tricky. Normally you would have the data holder apply for a Exemption under the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA). Even then there's not much consensus in the GB community as to whether we can actually use the data. As suggested, a better idea would be to have the Highways Agency provide us a list of upcoming projects and dates that they are expected to complete. If they have any GPS data we would be able to use that too :-) Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
On 5 July 2014 19:20, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: snip I'll let them them know about the copyright situation (which I was fully aware from day one was a concern) and there is no real interest from the OSM community for establishing this. John, Please don't tell the Highways Agency that as it is *not* the case. The blame lies with the Ordnance Survey and their reluctance to make it easy for public sector bodies to release map data based on their products. I would rather you highlight that to Highways Agency so that they know where the real blame lies. And yes, if they have maps that are based on OS OpenData (for example the OS StreetView maps) then I would love to see them. This is how we are working with Birmingham City Council to get maps of their proposed 20mph zones. Perhaps step one is to find out what they have. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
I am not convinced proposed highways are especially useful in OSM, until construction starts they are just ideas and break the map what we see rule. Proposed highways should certainly not render, for example I drove through Uttoxeter with osmand running and the proposed highways make the map pretty confusing. Phil (trigpoint ) On Sat, 2014-07-05 at 17:47 +0100, Rob Nickerson wrote: Hi John, The negativity, or least lack of enthusiasm, is partly due to the complexity of the issue. We'd love to have Highways Agency data as open data but if the data is based upon Ordnance Survey data this becomes a quite tricky. Normally you would have the data holder apply for a Exemption under the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA). Even then there's not much consensus in the GB community as to whether we can actually use the data. As suggested, a better idea would be to have the Highways Agency provide us a list of upcoming projects and dates that they are expected to complete. If they have any GPS data we would be able to use that too :-) Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
I totally agree with Rob, we are tied by the law. The OS need to realise that the data they hold was paid for by us and to restrict its use by Govt is plain wrong. The HA should understand this so they can pressure their Ministers to open things up. http://bigfatfrog67.me On 05/07/2014 21:19, Rob Nickerson wrote: On 5 July 2014 19:20, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com mailto:rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: snip I'll let them them know about the copyright situation (which I was fully aware from day one was a concern) and there is no real interest from the OSM community for establishing this. John, Please don't tell the Highways Agency that as it is *not* the case. The blame lies with the Ordnance Survey and their reluctance to make it easy for public sector bodies to release map data based on their products. I would rather you highlight that to Highways Agency so that they know where the real blame lies. And yes, if they have maps that are based on OS OpenData (for example the OS StreetView maps) then I would love to see them. This is how we are working with Birmingham City Council to get maps of their proposed 20mph zones. Perhaps step one is to find out what they have. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Rob, To be fair when I did post that there had been a lack of interest. I asked could we use the OS maps we currently use and nothing. I asked what people do currently and nothing. You are the first to say that this could/should be ok. I am glad to see that someone is using this approach currently. This is about getting a process in place so they use the correct data. They have many types of data and we just need them to use the correct one (i.e Opendata) so we can map with confidence. There was a desire to get the correct data so we can use it. He didn't really understand and thought everything was ok (it is PD..., etc) I said I need to check as we cannot use all different types of copyright material some OS stuff could/should be ok. They have hundreds of different plans hopefully it shouldn't be too much of an issue to use/create another one. I will speak to them next week to see what I can sort out. John Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 21:19:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM From: rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com To: rovas...@hotmail.com; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org On 5 July 2014 19:20, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: snip I'll let them them know about the copyright situation (which I was fully aware from day one was a concern) and there is no real interest from the OSM community for establishing this. John, Please don't tell the Highways Agency that as it is *not* the case. The blame lies with the Ordnance Survey and their reluctance to make it easy for public sector bodies to release map data based on their products. I would rather you highlight that to Highways Agency so that they know where the real blame lies. And yes, if they have maps that are based on OS OpenData (for example the OS StreetView maps) then I would love to see them. This is how we are working with Birmingham City Council to get maps of their proposed 20mph zones. Perhaps step one is to find out what they have. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
On 3 July 2014 17:51, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: Once the legal hurdle has been overcome the idea is to setup a process stream so they can let me/us know what is happening (a simple spreadsheet or something) and get it added to OSM quickly. A better approach would be to get them to publish details of the new works as open data, so that anyone may reuse it, including but not only OSM. The Open Data User Group can advise: https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/open-data-user-group -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Hi, I have been talking to the Highways Agency who are keen to get more recent changes on OSM. They want to get all the new roads added and therefore added to the routers. (the initial contact was http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=25553 if you want a little background) Things like: http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/A23-Handcross-to-Warninglid As contact has been made I have been discussing how best to get the plans of the works and the proper dialogue for the relevant changes (e.g. more interested in new roads rather than minor works/roadworks and road widening) and a timeline (project under construction now, project 2 completed, etc) I was hoping to upload these plans somewhere so they could be traced by people. The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. Now they apparently have hundreds of plans. And only choose to release 1 on the website (if at all) these can be http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications/a23-handcross-to-warninglid-plan-of-approved-scheme/ http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications/a45a46-tollbar-end-improvement-proposed-scheme-plan/ We could in theory get access to other plans of the works. Does anyone know what legally I can use (really so I/we can republish/upload it so we can use them as imagery)? Would plan derived from the current OS map we can use be ok? Are those more detailed ones ok? I know legal stuff is a minefield but I am hoping someone can point me in the correct direction. Once the legal hurdle has been overcome the idea is to setup a process stream so they can let me/us know what is happening (a simple spreadsheet or something) and get it added to OSM quickly. I have never dealt with any organisation before for getting things into OSM so I am a little lost on the best way to proceed so any advice/help will be useful. Cheers, John ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
On 3 July 2014 17:51, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. Public Domain (British English, especially Government and in the Courts): Information known by the public, could be under any kind of copyright Public Domain (US English): Information available for unrestricted reuse. So you could say The contents of all the Harry Potter books are in the Public Domain and in the UK that just means the general public knows what's in the books, rather than anyone having permission to upload them to Project Gutenberg :-) Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos to add such works to OSM, which is usually what happens as soon as a new road gets opened. I'd be interested if the Highway's Agency have opened new roads and they are not included in OSM very soon after. That seems to me to be something we are pretty good at. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Yeah I know he probably didn't understand the implications/view points on it. I should have explained that better, rather than just ... Anyway he was talking about open source, etc and he meant it in the (modern) open source style of public domain. But the point was I didn't believe him that we could just republish it. So I am wanting to know what we can use. (actually the guy I spoke to didn't sound like he was even from the UK... - Australian maybe but that is whole different story) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:05:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM From: gravityst...@gmail.com To: rovas...@hotmail.com CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org On 3 July 2014 17:51, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. Public Domain (British English, especially Government and in the Courts): Information known by the public, could be under any kind of copyright Public Domain (US English): Information available for unrestricted reuse. So you could say The contents of all the Harry Potter books are in the Public Domain and in the UK that just means the general public knows what's in the books, rather than anyone having permission to upload them to Project Gutenberg :-) Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Yeah I know we are pretty good at adding them. But this discussion started with the HA because there were roads that were not on OSM. It was this project that he was working on. http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a23-handcross-to-warninglid/ So I personally added this in a rough way based on the descriptions from him who was on site at the time and the plans that were there (I didn't trace them just looked at them). I don't (for a change) want to get into conversation about tracing imagery vs. doing it by hand. The point is what can we use. My thought were that if there plans were based on the OS streetview (rather than the more detailed ones) then we could use them. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:23:34 +0100 From: o...@raggedred.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos to add such works to OSM, which is usually what happens as soon as a new road gets opened. I'd be interested if the Highway's Agency have opened new roads and they are not included in OSM very soon after. That seems to me to be something we are pretty good at. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
You know, rather than thinking about automatically importing any of their data into OSM, my intuition is that given the concerns about OS copyright, plus how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features, I'd suggest using their data to create a web feed of Hot new roads for mappers to go and survey! - I bet they'd all be mapped within a week ;) Dan 2014-07-03 18:41 GMT+01:00 John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com: Yeah I know we are pretty good at adding them. But this discussion started with the HA because there were roads that were not on OSM. It was this project that he was working on. http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a23-handcross-to-warninglid/ So I personally added this in a rough way based on the descriptions from him who was on site at the time and the plans that were there (I didn't trace them just looked at them). I don't (for a change) want to get into conversation about tracing imagery vs. doing it by hand. The point is what can we use. My thought were that if there plans were based on the OS streetview (rather than the more detailed ones) then we could use them. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:23:34 +0100 From: o...@raggedred.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos to add such works to OSM, which is usually what happens as soon as a new road gets opened. I'd be interested if the Highway's Agency have opened new roads and they are not included in OSM very soon after. That seems to me to be something we are pretty good at. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
Maybe a simple method is to use the OSM notes system, which is what the feature was designed for? Shaun On 3 Jul 2014, at 19:10, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: You know, rather than thinking about automatically importing any of their data into OSM, my intuition is that given the concerns about OS copyright, plus how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features, I'd suggest using their data to create a web feed of Hot new roads for mappers to go and survey! - I bet they'd all be mapped within a week ;) Dan 2014-07-03 18:41 GMT+01:00 John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com: Yeah I know we are pretty good at adding them. But this discussion started with the HA because there were roads that were not on OSM. It was this project that he was working on. http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a23-handcross-to-warninglid/ So I personally added this in a rough way based on the descriptions from him who was on site at the time and the plans that were there (I didn't trace them just looked at them). I don't (for a change) want to get into conversation about tracing imagery vs. doing it by hand. The point is what can we use. My thought were that if there plans were based on the OS streetview (rather than the more detailed ones) then we could use them. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:23:34 +0100 From: o...@raggedred.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos to add such works to OSM, which is usually what happens as soon as a new road gets opened. I'd be interested if the Highway's Agency have opened new roads and they are not included in OSM very soon after. That seems to me to be something we are pretty good at. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
I am a little surprised at the negativity. I would have thought it would be welcomed that the highway agency want to engage with OSM to help get the most up-to-date map available. I thought we prided ourselves of having the most up-to-date map. We currently have roads under construction (and proposed but I have avoided adding these with my chats with the HA as things can change) in OSM. I am confused as how you think people get these into OSM in the first place. Often they already use sources (I see it in the source tags often and I have been looking over the last few weeks at many of these proposed and constructed roads to get a feel about what the data is like) like the highway agency for England for the major roads. What I want to do is streamline and improve this process as mappers in the UK (it might not be you) do use these resources already. And often they guess from the information available if proper detailed aligned detailed plans existed that would be much better and easier too. Maybe these mappers are not on this list. *shrug* If there was a system/process in place that had accurate plans (allowed copyright) and timelines from an authorised source when construction began, when the road is opened, etc. We could use this. How we use it is a different matter - maybe someone wants to survey it, maybe someone wants to trace it. I have visions of mappers jumping fences and running under the cover of darkness down half built roads with their expensive GPS devices just to get the info in OSM. Personally I think already showing on the map a road under construction is way more informative that simply adding a note. Once it opens then someone can make it 'live'. I am not automatically importing anything here. It is not about that. Maybe it is just down to how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features in their area. From: sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:30:15 +0100 To: danstowell+...@gmail.com CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM Maybe a simple method is to use the OSM notes system, which is what the feature was designed for? Shaun On 3 Jul 2014, at 19:10, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: You know, rather than thinking about automatically importing any of their data into OSM, my intuition is that given the concerns about OS copyright, plus how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features, I'd suggest using their data to create a web feed of Hot new roads for mappers to go and survey! - I bet they'd all be mapped within a week ;) Dan 2014-07-03 18:41 GMT+01:00 John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com: Yeah I know we are pretty good at adding them. But this discussion started with the HA because there were roads that were not on OSM. It was this project that he was working on. http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a23-handcross-to-warninglid/ So I personally added this in a rough way based on the descriptions from him who was on site at the time and the plans that were there (I didn't trace them just looked at them). I don't (for a change) want to get into conversation about tracing imagery vs. doing it by hand. The point is what can we use. My thought were that if there plans were based on the OS streetview (rather than the more detailed ones) then we could use them. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:23:34 +0100 From: o...@raggedred.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos to add such works to OSM, which is usually what happens as soon as a new road gets opened. I'd be interested if the Highway's Agency have opened new roads and they are not included in OSM very soon after. That seems to me to be something we are pretty good at. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https
Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM
OK sorry, I shouldn't have said automatically importing, that was a misrepresentation. But I didn't intend negativity, I thought I was offering a positive suggestion of how to work with their data! Yes of course the news in your email was great to see, it would definitely be lovely to have their plans as an imagery layer. And good point about the under-construction roads. Dan 2014-07-03 21:36 GMT+01:00 John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com: I am a little surprised at the negativity. I would have thought it would be welcomed that the highway agency want to engage with OSM to help get the most up-to-date map available. I thought we prided ourselves of having the most up-to-date map. We currently have roads under construction (and proposed but I have avoided adding these with my chats with the HA as things can change) in OSM. I am confused as how you think people get these into OSM in the first place. Often they already use sources (I see it in the source tags often and I have been looking over the last few weeks at many of these proposed and constructed roads to get a feel about what the data is like) like the highway agency for England for the major roads. What I want to do is streamline and improve this process as mappers in the UK (it might not be you) do use these resources already. And often they guess from the information available if proper detailed aligned detailed plans existed that would be much better and easier too. Maybe these mappers are not on this list. *shrug* If there was a system/process in place that had accurate plans (allowed copyright) and timelines from an authorised source when construction began, when the road is opened, etc. We could use this. How we use it is a different matter - maybe someone wants to survey it, maybe someone wants to trace it. I have visions of mappers jumping fences and running under the cover of darkness down half built roads with their expensive GPS devices just to get the info in OSM. Personally I think already showing on the map a road under construction is way more informative that simply adding a note. Once it opens then someone can make it 'live'. I am not automatically importing anything here. It is not about that. Maybe it is just down to how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features in their area. From: sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:30:15 +0100 To: danstowell+...@gmail.com CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM Maybe a simple method is to use the OSM notes system, which is what the feature was designed for? Shaun On 3 Jul 2014, at 19:10, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: You know, rather than thinking about automatically importing any of their data into OSM, my intuition is that given the concerns about OS copyright, plus how much OSMers enjoy mapping new features, I'd suggest using their data to create a web feed of Hot new roads for mappers to go and survey! - I bet they'd all be mapped within a week ;) Dan 2014-07-03 18:41 GMT+01:00 John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com: Yeah I know we are pretty good at adding them. But this discussion started with the HA because there were roads that were not on OSM. It was this project that he was working on. http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/a23-handcross-to-warninglid/ So I personally added this in a rough way based on the descriptions from him who was on site at the time and the plans that were there (I didn't trace them just looked at them). I don't (for a change) want to get into conversation about tracing imagery vs. doing it by hand. The point is what can we use. My thought were that if there plans were based on the OS streetview (rather than the more detailed ones) then we could use them. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:23:34 +0100 From: o...@raggedred.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Getting Highway Agency information into OSM On 03/07/14 17:51, John Baker wrote: The first thing I am worried about is the copyright of the various plans. Some/many seem to be derived from OS maps. A legitimate concern. Now I am no expert on the copyright situation here and dialogue is difficult they know little about OSM really. He just said we release the plans and they are public domain. There is no mechanism in the UK for a body like the Highways Agency to release data as PD. That is a mechanism used in countries like the US. In the UK the info would have to be licensed using a specific licence, such as the Open Government Licence. If the plans are based on OS maps then OS would have to agree to release this, according to OS's interpretation of copyright law. OS probably will not agree to this, but it is worth asking :-). Without a suitably agreed licence we cannot trace such plans into OSM. You could visit the site and get GPS traces photos
