Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Adam,

OK - that's great, thanks!

Does the AWS hosting include full shell access? We'll need that to install the 
relevant software.

Let me know if/when the server space is available.

In the meantime I will create a Hetzner server to start experimenting, this 
will be around EUR4/month which I am prepared to meet in the short term, I will 
also give accounts to trusted members of the community on request to work on 
the project should they wish.

Nick





From: OSMUK 
Sent: 13 December 2020 18:36
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Cc: Nick Whitelegg 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

Hey Nick,

This sounds like a great project and so I’m sure OSMUK can help with server 
space. We have just migrated hosting to AWS due to our previous host shutting 
down, so one option is to provide some space on there.

Best,

Adam

--
Adam Hoyle
[m] 07973 428 333
On 11 Dec 2020, 15:02 +, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB , wrote:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend 
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Euro

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[OSMUK via Talk-GB]

Hey Nick,

This sounds like a great project and so I’m sure OSMUK can help with server 
space. We have just migrated hosting to AWS due to our previous host shutting 
down, so one option is to provide some space on there.

Best,

Adam

--
Adam Hoyle
[m] 07973 428 333
On 11 Dec 2020, 15:02 +, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB , wrote:
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> Thanks for this.
>
> My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it 
> going" and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of 
> course) and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model 
> is very flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM 
> before I found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM 
> to the 16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am 
> willing to spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get 
> things going if there's sufficient interest.
>
> I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
> prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
> stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do 
> small​ tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a 
> similar style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. 
> On the other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims 
> of this project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and 
> paths can be clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do 
> this quite easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a 
> simple stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also 
> has some nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and 
> (via A-Frame components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit 
> having a personal like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing 
> onto the client, good in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and 
> mobile, is pretty powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.
>
> I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until 
> it becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best 
> approach is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I 
> do quite rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to 
> reject things mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and 
> resources in a walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs 
> down would be to concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped 
> ones with many ROWs, hills, water features etc.
>
> So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
> server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
> setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style 
> unmodified. My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on 
> the server- and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI 
> map. We'd also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - 
> alas, mine are not so great!
>
> As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
> Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.
>
> Nick
>
>
> Nick Whitelegg
> Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
> Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
> 0YN
> T: 023 8201 3075 | E: nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk | W: solent.ac.uk
>
> Disclaimer
> From: Andy Townsend 
> Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server
>
>
> On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
> >
> > In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
> > most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be 
> > light and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my 
> > hosting (OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but 
> > that is for a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe 
> > rather than just the UK.
> >
> >  https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb
> >
> > The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB 
> > disc space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but 
> > I suspect that would get us going in the early stages.
>
> That'll depending on what you want the server to do, I think.  For an OSM 
> Carto Map style with

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Seán,

Thanks for that, sounds a great idea! Would be a great addition to any UK 
countryside map once you have opened your API.

Nick


From: Seán Lynch 
Sent: 11 December 2020 21:03
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: Andy Townsend ; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 

Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

Hi all,

As people enjoy their walk, we would love if you could consider uploading any 
plastic / litter data into OpenLitterMap<http://openlittermap.com>

Right now the only way to add data is using our platform, but we will open our 
API hopefully next year and allow uploads from other developers.


github.com/openlittermap<http://github.com/openlittermap>

TeamLitterUK is currently in 1st place globally for uploading the most data

Litter mapping has a remarkably low barrier to entry, allowing for potentially 
many more people to get involved with data collection and mapping

Cheers,

Seán

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 15:05, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to 

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Seán Lynch]

Hi all,

As people enjoy their walk, we would love if you could consider uploading
any plastic / litter data into OpenLitterMap <http://openlittermap.com>

Right now the only way to add data is using our platform, but we will open
our API hopefully next year and allow uploads from other developers.


github.com/openlittermap

TeamLitterUK is currently in 1st place globally for uploading the most data

Litter mapping has a remarkably low barrier to entry, allowing for
potentially many more people to get involved with data collection and
mapping

Cheers,

Seán

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 15:05, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Hello Andy,
>
> Thanks for this.
>
> My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it
> going" and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of
> course) and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's
> model is very flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB
> RAM VM before I found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded
> the same VM to the 16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too).
> For now I am willing to spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month
> or two to get things going if there's sufficient interest.
>
> I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I
> would prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current
> Mapnik stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy
> to do *small*​ tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations
> appear in a similar style to Landranger which might be an idea for
> familiarity purposes. On the other hand, vector rendering would have some
> advantages for the aims of this project - an interactive map of the
> countryside in which POIs and paths can be clicked to add/retrieve
> information. I believe Tangram can do this quite easily; I have dabbled in
> Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple stylesheet though haven't
> tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some nice things like
> being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame components,
> https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal like for
> the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good in a
> world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty
> powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.
>
> I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates
> until it becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the
> best approach is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own
> projects I do quite rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating
> the DB, to reject things mostly of interest to urban areas which only use
> up space and resources in a walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping
> initial costs down would be to concentrate on one or a few counties,
> ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, hills, water features etc.
>
> So I'd be quite happy - *if*​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper
> Hetzner server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to
> do a basic setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your
> style unmodified. My main personal contribution to the project would be to
> work on the server- and client-side scripting necessary to develop an
> interactive POI map. We'd also of course need people with strong web design
> and UX skills - alas, mine are not so great!
>
> As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's
> Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.
>
> Nick
>
>
> *Nick Whitelegg*
> *Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)*  *|* School of Media Arts and
> Technology
> Southampton Solent University  *|* RM424 *|* East Park Terrace *|* Southampton
> SO14 0YN
> T: 023 8201 3075 *|* E: nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk *|* W: solent.ac.uk
> <http://www.solent.ac.uk/>
>
> Disclaimer <http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>
> --
> *From:* Andy Townsend 
> *Sent:* 11 December 2020 13:40
> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -&
> server
>
>
>
> On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
> In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware,
> like most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would
> be light and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my
> hosting (OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but
> that is for a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe
> r

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend 
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe rather than just the 
UK.

 https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb

The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB disc 
space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but I 
suspect that would get us going in the early stages.


That'll depending on what you want the server to do, I think.  For an OSM Carto 
Map style with automatic updates and reasonable performance you'll probably 
need > 6Gb memory for the whole of the UK these days.  Maybe a CX31 at €11 per 
month (i.e. about the price of a couple of pints and a "substantial" pork pie 
for those in tier 2)?  https://map.atownsend.org.uk is a CX41 I believe, and 
renders Mapnik / Carto CSS map tiles that cover UK and Ireland.  It could 
probably include another "medium sized OSM country" in the same map style as 
well without too many problems.


On the question of "could we show feature X" (e.g. "cycleways with foot=yes" 
different to "cycl

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Andy Townsend]

On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:



In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, 
like most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage 
would be light and limited to those in the OSM community. I use 
Hetzner for my hosting (OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay 
around EUR 19/month but that is for a larger system that has to deal 
with the whole of Europe rather than just the UK.


https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb 



The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 
40GB disc space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long 
term, but I suspect that would get us going in the early stages.



That'll depending on what you want the server to do, I think. For an OSM 
Carto Map style with automatic updates and reasonable performance you'll 
probably need > 6Gb memory for the whole of the UK these days.  Maybe a 
CX31 at €11 per month (i.e. about the price of a couple of pints and a 
"substantial" pork pie for those in tier 2)?  
https://map.atownsend.org.uk is a CX41 I believe, and renders Mapnik / 
Carto CSS map tiles that cover UK and Ireland. It could probably include 
another "medium sized OSM country" in the same map style as well without 
too many problems.



On the question of "could we show feature X" (e.g. "cycleways with 
foot=yes" different to "cycleways with foot=no) the answer is 
technically yes, but you need to decide which subset of features you 
want to show because there simply aren't enough ways of visually 
distinguishing things that users can actually tell apart, especially 
when combined with other features.



As an example, have a look at the legend at 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=-24.98988=135.10862 
.  That shows:


 * designation (public footpath / bridleway / retricted byway / BOAT /
   UCR / none)
 * width - either "narrow" (not wide enough for a 4 wheeled vehicle) or
   "wide" (wide enough)
 * trail_visibility
 * some surface information (unclassified unpaved roads rendered
   differently to paved roads)
 * tunnel yes/no
 * long ford yes/no
 * bridge yes/no
 * embankment yes/no
 * long distance foot / bicycle / horse riding routes
 * access=destination and =private viewed from a pedestrian perspective

and of course combinations of the above.


It does not show:

 * explicit OSM keys (e.g. footway/cycleway/path/bridleway)
 * explicit OSM access tags (e.g. "foot=yes or no on a cycleway")
 * undesignated cycleways differently from other undesignated paths

In order to one of those (for example just "displaying cycleways as 
cycleways") you'd need to remove something else that's already rendered, 
otherwise users won't be able to tell features apart.



Assuming that people are planning to go down the mod_tile / Mapnik / 
Carto CSS route, I'd suggest:


1. decide what zoom levels you want, which will influence exactly which
   software to use
2. deciding where to start from (e.g OSM's Standard style, mine, or a
   different one altogether)
3. deciding exactly what you want to change
4. make those changes,
5. see what "unintended consequences" have occurred
6. fix those and iterate round until happy

Assuming you can deal a couple of hours overnight downtime while the 
database reloads I'd suggest doing most of the "deciding what to show as 
different things" work in lua and the "deciding what to show it as" in 
Carto CSS.  It's much easier to understand and to maintain.



With regard to the "boring bit" (scripts to load databases, keep 
databases up to date etc.) most of the stuff used by 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk is public (links to everything are at the 
top of the changelog).  Much of the rest (e.g. automatic https 
certificate renewal) is standard and is documented in 1000s of other 
places around the internet.  If anyone wants any help or advice with any 
of the above please just ask.



There may be a temptation to think "the end goal is a phone app , so 
actually we probably want to look at $some_other_technology instead".  I 
would strongly suggest following a well-trodden path first while so that 
the things that are new to whoever is doing this are have 
well-documented solutions.  I haven't yet found a vector tile stack that 
is (a) well documented and (b) free of vendor lock-in that could go on 
https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ yet, for example.  Once whoever is 
doing this is familiar with things, trying something a bit more 
off-the-wall will be more likely to work without everything breaking.



The biggest requirement is for someone to actually commit to doing the 
work to set something up - nothing will happen without this.  If OSM UK 
are happy to fund a server, and for it to fit in their DNS somewhere 
then that's one less expense to worry about - but someone still needs to 
do the work.



Best Regards,


Andy




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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

>Hi


Hello Tony,


>I like the idea.

>Can it be extended to be a UK based map which is has greater prominence to 
>aspects such as the >recent discussion about cyclists and paths?


Potentially, yes - I don't see why not.

I have to admit I personally haven't had much experience in recent years with 
creating mapnik stylesheets (I've been working with client-side renderers such 
as Kothic and have played with Tangram), hence my suggestion earlier of 
starting with Andy Townsend's style.


>Does anyone have an idea of how it could be made to happen - could we (OSM UK) 
>fund and >maintain it with commitment for say 2 years? Using volunteers or 
>donated equipment or personal >funding commitments? Do we know the size of 
>server required to support a given load? Can we >manage the required 
>operations and security?

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe rather than just the 
UK.

 https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb

The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB disc 
space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but I 
suspect that would get us going in the early stages.

I'm quite happy to create the server and pay the initial costs, but it would be 
good if funds could be found from OSMUK longer term if possible.

I'm also happy to do some dev work (client and server side). I can tweak the 
cartography and add contours (I have experience doing this) but I'll leave it 
up to others to do serious cartography work, and of course web design.

Or, we could even use client-side rendering, Tangram is pretty powerful, have 
had a play with it.

Would be a great project for the community to work on.

Nick



From: Tony Shield 
Sent: 10 December 2020 17:36
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server


Hi

I like the idea.

Can it be extended to be a UK based map which is has greater prominence to 
aspects such as the recent discussion about cyclists and paths?


Does anyone have an idea of how it could be made to happen - could we (OSM UK) 
fund and maintain it with commitment for say 2 years? Using volunteers or 
donated equipment or personal funding commitments? Do we know the size of 
server required to support a given load? Can we manage the required operations 
and security?


Tony Shield - TonyS999




On 04/12/2020 15:40, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.

This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the Ramblers' 
Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx)
 allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, historical sites 
and so on. It could also provide info such as train or bus times (by clicking 
on a rail station), beers served (for a pub), routing via public transport to a 
given countryside location, and so on.

Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which could be 
used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data available to us via 
rowmaps.com  - the right of way reference could be sourced from this if it's 
not in OSM already.

For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, maybe 
tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively maintained of all the 
England and Wales renderings. This could be setup on our own server, I seem to 
remember experimenting with this a couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was 
first floated, on a server which had been loaned to the community (I need to 
re-check my emails, and indeed check if this server is still open for us to 
use!)

I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. Freemap 
(free-map.org.uk) once had the facility to add path problems, but now we have 
the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a semi-official OSMUK walkers' map 
with added functionality would have greater traction and it's something that 
could be launched as a project on GitHub?

Thanks,
Nick



Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>



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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Tony Shield]

Hi

I like the idea.

Can it be extended to be a UK based map which is has greater prominence 
to aspects such as the recent discussion about cyclists and paths?



Does anyone have an idea of how it could be made to happen - could we 
(OSM UK) fund and maintain it with commitment for say 2 years? Using 
volunteers or donated equipment or personal funding commitments? Do we 
know the size of server required to support a given load? Can we manage 
the required operations and security?



Tony Shield - TonyS999




On 04/12/2020 15:40, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.


This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the 
Ramblers' Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx) 
allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, 
historical sites and so on. It could also provide info such as train 
or bus times (by clicking on a rail station), beers served (for a 
pub), routing via public transport to a given countryside location, 
and so on.


Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which 
could be used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data 
available to us via rowmaps.com  - the right of way reference could be 
sourced from this if it's not in OSM already.


For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, 
maybe tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively 
maintained of all the England and Wales renderings. This could be 
setup on our own server, I seem to remember experimenting with this a 
couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was first floated, on a server 
which had been loaned to the community (I need to re-check my emails, 
and indeed check if this server is still open for us to use!)


I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. 
Freemap (free-map.org.uk) once had the facility to add path problems, 
but now we have the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a 
semi-official OSMUK walkers' map with added functionality would have 
greater traction and it's something that could be launched as a 
project on GitHub?


Thanks,
Nick



Disclaimer 

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