Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 25 October 2014 10:44, Ian Caldwell ian1caldwell+...@googlemail.com wrote: You say we manually exclude bus stops (highway=bus_stop) I would have thought you should only be changing where there is a shop tag. If not your Cotswold - Cotswold Outdoor would change http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146053979. Some shops are missing a shop tag, and I think for example a large building on a retail park named ASDA will be save to change, even if the shop tag is missing. However, you are right, doing this purely mechanical would probably create lots of issues like this. To prevent this, I will manually check (for objects without relevant shop tag) if changing the object name makes sense, based on tags and location, erring towards the side of caution. I updated the proposal to take this into account. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Hi all, Coincidentally, I noticed this online project to maintain a list of canonical names. It's used for auto-suggest in iD, not for mechanical-edit: https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index I've checked the list against Matthijs' proposal, and I've proposed a few of his suggestions to go on their list too: https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/12/files Best Dan 2014-10-24 14:44 GMT+01:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: Dear all, I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
You say we manually exclude bus stops (highway=bus_stop) I would have thought you should only be changing where there is a shop tag. If not your Cotswold - Cotswold Outdoor would change http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146053979. Ian On 24 October 2014 20:39, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: On 24 October 2014 14:44, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names . Thank you for all comments so far. Based on the comments, I made the following changes: - I removed most changes to the co-operative stores, as their inconsistent signs means that they require a local visit. - Majestic (Wine (Warehouse)) is a difficult case because they're very inconsistent in the way they use their brand. I decided to go with Majestic Wine Warehouse, which is the current most popular name. - I dropped the Nisa change. - Marks Spencer Simply Food is now changed to MS Simply Food, instead of the other way around. People mentioned the Wilkinsons to Wilko change, but please note that I never proposed to automatically change this. As not all shops have been changed, we cannot handle this in an automated way. The brand tag, as well as moving location information into a different tag, would be worth looking at to, but I consider it out of scope of the current changes. Please let me know if there are more changes that need to be made to the proposed list. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Dear all, I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24/10/14 14:44, Matthijs Melissen wrote: I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Note that by propose what Matthijs means is have already started doing if the number of Correct tagging of XXX shops changesets by him in the last 24 hours are anything to do by: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Math1985/history Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24/10/2014 15:13, Dan S wrote: Co-operative - not clear to me why you choose to drop The from this one, since it's included in the branding? You choose to keep it for The Co-operative Food. +1: see http://www.co-operative.coop/about-us/ -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24 October 2014 15:24, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Note that by propose what Matthijs means is have already started doing if the number of Correct tagging of XXX shops changesets by him in the last 24 hours are anything to do by: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Math1985/history Hi Tom, No, your presumption (which you phrased in a way to make it sound like a statement rather than an presumption, by the way) is not true. I have not started with any of the proposed changes here. The proposed changes in this thread involve changes to name tags of shops, while my changeset involves the shop tag - and that only involving small numbers of shops, in cases where a clear community consensus already exist. If there are any particular of my change sets, or even all of them, you have a problem with, please let me know and I will gladly revert them. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 2014-10-24 15:35, Steve Doerr wrote: On 24/10/2014 15:13, Dan S wrote: Co-operative - not clear to me why you choose to drop The from this one, since it's included in the branding? You choose to keep it for The Co-operative Food. +1: see http://www.co-operative.coop/about-us/ Also note there are a number of co-ops which are not part of The Co-operative Group (eg Scotmid). Some of these might have stores branded as Co-op or The Co-op or Co-operative etc. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24/10/14 14:44, Matthijs Melissen wrote: please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Nisa use at least two brands, Nisa Local and Nisa Loco (the logo makes the last o appear to have an accute accent but they don't use it in the text). Whilst I can't work out the branding concept difference between them, they are different brands. I think they tend not to include the Nisa when they are using the Loco brand. Also it is a franchise. Actually a lot of shops are really franchises. Some Nisa stores seem to retain branding that reflects their ownership, and shouldn't be fixed. I see someone has already mentioned the re-branding of Wilkinsons to Wilko. My feeling is that you need to split this up into obvious mistakes and possible branding variations. Sainsburys for Sainsbury's is a mistake. Most variations on Co-op probably need verifying on the ground. What I would more like, though is moving location information into a branch tag, e.g. some people seem to want to have a Macdonalds Snowdon Summit entry rather than just having it as Macdonalds (I assume that doesn't really exist). Also watch out for people going close to the edge on trade mark violations. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24/10/14 17:20, David Woolley wrote: Whilst I can't work out the branding concept difference between them, they are different brands. I think they tend not to include the Nisa when they are using the Loco brand. Nisa Local is for medium sized stores. Loco is for small ones. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:44:17 +0100 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. A few thoughts: * The co-operative - Co-operative - As others have said, we should keep the definitive article. * Cotswold Outdoor - Cotswold - My local store and their website refer to the company as Cotswold Outdoor so it would be wrong to change it. * Would it be worthwhile expanding this proposal to also cover the brand tag? -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Dear Matthijs, As Will has objected to these edits, I do too. I agree with him that it is far too premature to even consider doing this. AFAIK the Nottingham area is the only place in the UK, and one of the very few places in the world, where there has been a systematic approach to mapping shops (by Paul Williams, Kev Swindells, Will Phillips and myself). The tags chosen have been chosen with care and represent a very valuable data set for evaluating how one might develop the tagging scheme for shops in the future. Altering these tags to some view of what they should be creates the following problems: - It destroys the utility of the OSM-Nottingham http://osm-nottingham.org.uk/ site which is a show case for OSM in our local area. This already has a categorisation of retail tags which we know works really well (created by Will Phillips, but pretty much in accord with my own ideas of classification set out in my slides at SotM-Baltics. (OSM Nottingham demonstrates incidentally that consuming such data, as I have said before, is not a major point of development complexity. - It destroys a highly useful data set for evaluating how things might be tagged by mappers in the field. It also shows a massive amount of disrespect for other OpenStreetMap contributors in a multitude of areas their mapping styles, their hard work, and their local knowledge. I would ask you to revert edits made in the UK over the past few days, and for you to abstain from further mechanical edits in the area. Should you not do this I may feel a need to refer your actions to the Data Working Group. Regards, Jerry Clough On 24 October 2014 14:44, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names . Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Dear Matthjis, Apparently you have chosen to change names of shops which have been surveyed in the field. Please do not assume that your armchair knowledge is somehow more valuable than someone who lives in the area and actually goes out and looks what it says on the front of the shops. I could have done many of these changes, but strangely decided not too. I even did some work on stores in the co-operative movement, where someone else had already erroneously changed names. Your actions however well-intentioned are far too hasty, and do not appear to respect the clear guidelines set out in the Mechanical edit policy. Regards, Jerry Clough On 24 October 2014 15:44, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: On 24 October 2014 15:24, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Note that by propose what Matthijs means is have already started doing if the number of Correct tagging of XXX shops changesets by him in the last 24 hours are anything to do by: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Math1985/history Hi Tom, No, your presumption (which you phrased in a way to make it sound like a statement rather than an presumption, by the way) is not true. I have not started with any of the proposed changes here. The proposed changes in this thread involve changes to name tags of shops, while my changeset involves the shop tag - and that only involving small numbers of shops, in cases where a clear community consensus already exist. If there are any particular of my change sets, or even all of them, you have a problem with, please let me know and I will gladly revert them. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
I'd also say the same about the Wilkinson-Wilko rebranding. Most store chains roll out re-brands over a number of months because they are expensive and creating and fitting new signage externally internally involves a range of skills which may take time to assemble. At present I suspect we are a bit slow at spotting and dealing with these things. The ideal would be to encourage local mappers to check. We all know that checking a minor change in an area often results in a flurry of other edits because it's a while since someone was in that area. It's another problem of editing them en masse: by doing so you remove one of the incentives to get mappers to revisit places in their local area. As we acquire more mappers better messages about what needs checking is far more likely to result in a good map than doing mass updates. If we want to keep a data set with what we believe to be absolutely current branding this can be done as a post-processing step (a typical data warehouse cleansing process). The logic is essentially the same and has the advantage of that it does nothing to antagonise mappers who contributed the data in the first place. Furthermore post-processed data sets can be changed so that global changes are easier to apply through use of more normalised schemas. Jerry On 24 October 2014 18:18, Will Phillips wp4...@gmail.com wrote: I think the name tag should show what is written on the shop sign. Some of your suggested changes do this. For example, as far as I know Waterstones never has an apostrophe. However, some of the proposed changes look like doing the opposite: e.g. the signs do say MS Simply Food not Marks Spencer Simply Food (if my memory is correct). The changes to Co-op names look problematic, because they vary around the country (unless they've been standardised very recently). Locally the one in my home town (Stapleford, Nottingham) is 'The Co-operative Food', another a few miles down the road in Castle Donington for a long time just said 'Co-op', until it changed to 'The Co-operative Food' in the last year or two ago. Unless you have strong evidence they have all been standardised recently, I don't think they should be changed. Cheers, Will On 24/10/2014 14:44, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/ Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 24 October 2014 14:44, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Thank you for all comments so far. Based on the comments, I made the following changes: - I removed most changes to the co-operative stores, as their inconsistent signs means that they require a local visit. - Majestic (Wine (Warehouse)) is a difficult case because they're very inconsistent in the way they use their brand. I decided to go with Majestic Wine Warehouse, which is the current most popular name. - I dropped the Nisa change. - Marks Spencer Simply Food is now changed to MS Simply Food, instead of the other way around. People mentioned the Wilkinsons to Wilko change, but please note that I never proposed to automatically change this. As not all shops have been changed, we cannot handle this in an automated way. The brand tag, as well as moving location information into a different tag, would be worth looking at to, but I consider it out of scope of the current changes. Please let me know if there are more changes that need to be made to the proposed list. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
