Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
2009/8/26 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: On 26 Aug 2009, at 10:08, Chris Hill wrote: The orange (maybe brownish) roads can be secondary, tertiary or unclassified. I've compared the NPE roads to some roads that I know well and they cover what I would say are secondary, tertiary or unclassified. Secondary have reference numbers. I guess its back to the beer method I can find about 9 roads in Gravesend alone that I think ought to be re-classified on OSM I need to do some ground work before going ahead, as I'm sure some of them have (or should have) B numbers Its becoming to feel like Highways have given up handing out new roads numbers (and removing old unnecessary ones) From what I can work out the Use of Green Signs on A roads has nothing to do with classification and more to do with who put it up and who maintains the road. (Highways or Local Council) A similar line being used with B Roads. I mean if you look at the A2 it looks and feels like a Motor Way (Hard Shoulder, Slipways, 70MPH) all the way till Wilmington it just happens that Tractors and Learners are aloud to use it (I would not advise it however). Many bits of the M2 beyond Gillingham are actually smaller (Only two lanes). Oh and the Blackwall Tunnel is the A102(M) so needs a reclassification as well (By the other set of rules), Which is just plain silly Peter. Oh and what do I do about the fact that the M20 is also the E15 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 27/08/09 10:31, Peter Childs wrote: From what I can work out the Use of Green Signs on A roads has nothing to do with classification and more to do with who put it up and who maintains the road. (Highways or Local Council) A similar line being used with B Roads. Not true at all. Green signs are used for roads which are part of the Primary Route Network as designated by the DfT. We actually got a list of all the roads which make up the PRN from the DfT a year or two back using an FOI request. See wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_road_numbering_scheme#Trunk_roads_and_primary_routes I mean if you look at the A2 it looks and feels like a Motor Way (Hard Shoulder, Slipways, 70MPH) all the way till Wilmington it just happens that Tractors and Learners are aloud to use it (I would not advise it however). Many bits of the M2 beyond Gillingham are actually smaller (Only two lanes). Oh and the Blackwall Tunnel is the A102(M) so needs a reclassification as well (By the other set of rules), Which is just plain silly Are you sure it doesn't lose the (M) through the tunnel? Many tunnels and bridges deliberately lose the motorway classification of the road which passes through them in order to allow otherwise prohibited traffic to use them. Hence why the QE2 bridge and Dartford tunnels are designated as the A282 and not the M25. In fact I can't find any map which shows either the tunnel or the approach roads as the A102(M) - they all shown as the A102 for the whole length from the junction with the A12/A13 to the north to the junction with the A2 to the south. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 27/08/2009 10:31, Peter Childs wrote: I mean if you look at the A2 it looks and feels like a Motor Way (Hard Shoulder, Slipways, 70MPH) all the way till Wilmington it just happens that Tractors and Learners are aloud to use it (I would not advise it however). and cyclists (ditto) which is exactly why you should tag it as the trunk road that it is, not a motorway. Motorways have different rules as well as different construction standards - and, in terms of someone using the map to navigate, they have different signs. Many bits of the M2 beyond Gillingham are actually smaller (Only two lanes). So say so: lanes=2 David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 27/08/09 11:05, Tom Hughes wrote: In fact I can't find any map which shows either the tunnel or the approach roads as the A102(M) - they all shown as the A102 for the whole length from the junction with the A12/A13 to the north to the junction with the A2 to the south. I have now found these: http://pathetic.org.uk/former/a102m_blackwall_tunnel_southern_approach/ http://math.colorado.edu/~rmg/roads/a102m.html So it was de-motorwayed in 1999 but was always a bit of an oddity as the southern approach from the Sun in the Sands roundabout to the tunnel was a motorway but the tunnel and northern approach weren't. Any remaining signs for the A102(M) are erroneous. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 27 Aug 2009, at 11:12, Tom Hughes wrote: On 27/08/09 11:05, Tom Hughes wrote: In fact I can't find any map which shows either the tunnel or the approach roads as the A102(M) - they all shown as the A102 for the whole length from the junction with the A12/A13 to the north to the junction with the A2 to the south. I have now found these: http://pathetic.org.uk/former/a102m_blackwall_tunnel_southern_approach/ http://math.colorado.edu/~rmg/roads/a102m.html So it was de-motorwayed in 1999 but was always a bit of an oddity as the southern approach from the Sun in the Sands roundabout to the tunnel was a motorway but the tunnel and northern approach weren't. Any remaining signs for the A102(M) are erroneous. Would it be useful to validate our classification and labelling of roads in OSM against the relevant WIkipedia article[2]. If the Wikipedia article is wrong or the information isn't sourced then it would be helpful to update the WIkipedia article. It would be useful to create a relation for the road and link it to the Wikipedia article using the 'wikipedia' tag. See 'External references'[1] This should ensure that the tagging in OSM doesn't regress for lack of proper references for the tagging and Wikipedia provides a much richer ways of providing references than OSM. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/External_links [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A102_road Regards, Peter Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
I mean if you look at the A2 it looks and feels like a Motor Way (Hard Shoulder, Slipways, 70MPH) all the way till Wilmington it just happens that Tractors and Learners are aloud to use it (I would not advise it however). Many bits of the M2 beyond Gillingham are actually smaller (Only two lanes). With the A2 it might be like some of the A1(M), by calling it a 'A' road it means that they can put in traffic lights and roundabouts. If it was to be a motorway then they would have to change junctions etc. Jack Stringer ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
Would it be useful to validate our classification and labelling of roads in OSM against the relevant WIkipedia article[2]. Yes, But I'm still a little unclear from is as to what makes a trunk road trunk. I'm wondering if a render that ignores the classification but takes notice of lanes=? and dual carriage ways would help, sort out problems, maybe including some ranking as to where the roads connect Is there a way to tag the existence of a hard shoulder? eg lanes=3, hardshoulder=no for some sections of the M25 Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 27/08/09 11:48, Peter Childs wrote: Would it be useful to validate our classification and labelling of roads in OSM against the relevant WIkipedia article[2]. Yes, But I'm still a little unclear from is as to what makes a trunk road trunk. That depends on what you mean... The definition of trunk used by the DfT is those roads which are centrally maintained (by the Highways Agency or a commercial entity under contract to HA) but are not Motorways. These days that is quite a small set as many former trunk roads have been returned to the county highway departments. The OSM definition of trunk (ie the roads to be tagged as highway=trunk) is wider and includes everything which is part of the Primary Route Network, ie all green signed A roads. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
Peter Childs wrote: 2009/8/26 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: On 26 Aug 2009, at 10:08, Chris Hill wrote: The orange (maybe brownish) roads can be secondary, tertiary or unclassified. I've compared the NPE roads to some roads that I know well and they cover what I would say are secondary, tertiary or unclassified. Secondary have reference numbers. I guess its back to the beer method I can find about 9 roads in Gravesend alone that I think ought to be re-classified on OSM I need to do some ground work before going ahead, as I'm sure some of them have (or should have) B numbers Ground work is the only sure way to find what's really there with the roads. Its becoming to feel like Highways have given up handing out new roads numbers (and removing old unnecessary ones) From what I can work out the Use of Green Signs on A roads has nothing to do with classification and more to do with who put it up and who maintains the road. (Highways or Local Council) A similar line being used with B Roads. I mean if you look at the A2 it looks and feels like a Motor Way (Hard Shoulder, Slipways, 70MPH) all the way till Wilmington it just happens that Tractors and Learners are aloud to use it (I would not advise it however). Many bits of the M2 beyond Gillingham are actually smaller (Only two lanes). I just tag what I find - I can't second-guess the planners :-) Oh and the Blackwall Tunnel is the A102(M) so needs a reclassification as well (By the other set of rules), Which is just plain silly Peter. Oh and what do I do about the fact that the M20 is also the E15 E-routes get marked with a relation, so ref=M20, and add the road to the E15 relation: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/103222 Cheers, Chris ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
On 26 Aug 2009, at 10:08, Chris Hill wrote: The orange (maybe brownish) roads can be secondary, tertiary or unclassified. I've compared the NPE roads to some roads that I know well and they cover what I would say are secondary, tertiary or unclassified. Secondary have reference numbers. The NPE maps are available as a background to Potlatch and you can zoom in a little further and trace directly over them. For your information When I copied from NPE in Suffolk and Essex I always used the highway=road;source=NPE tagging to indicate where it came from and that it needed a local review. I wouldn't copy references for roads (reference and classification changes) and where the join a road that didn't exist on NPE I leave a gap between the NPE traced road and the new road to avoid guessing if the road does or does not join to the bypass or whatever. Others then review the road classification and references based on their local knowledge and change the tagging to tertiary etc. Basically the only assumption I was making was that if there was a road there in 1945 there is probably a road there now and it geometry does not need to be resurveyed but everything else does need a review. Possibly adding the review=no tag would be helpful. Regards, Peter Cheers, Chris Peter Childs wrote: I was trying to fill in a few gaps in what I thought was where by looking at the Out Of Copyright OS Maps at http://www.npemap.org.uk Would it be right to suggest that all Orange Roads on this old map (should they still exist) including any obvious diversions are either Secondary (and should have numbers), or Tertrary Roads. and should be on OSM as such. Scales is far too small to trace but it might be useful for checking classification, and finding a few missing roads Did not find what I wanted as it was not there back in 1940, So I'm going to have to get out and do it on the ground instead :) (Does the Village on the map between Meopham, Sole Street, A2 and Southfleet and Sole Street have a name?) If this is a silly idea you can all shout at once. Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
I was trying to fill in a few gaps in what I thought was where by looking at the Out Of Copyright OS Maps at http://www.npemap.org.uk Would it be right to suggest that all Orange Roads on this old map (should they still exist) including any obvious diversions are either Secondary (and should have numbers), or Tertrary Roads. and should be on OSM as such. Scales is far too small to trace but it might be useful for checking classification, and finding a few missing roads Did not find what I wanted as it was not there back in 1940, So I'm going to have to get out and do it on the ground instead :) (Does the Village on the map between Meopham, Sole Street, A2 and Southfleet and Sole Street have a name?) If this is a silly idea you can all shout at once. Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Uk Missing Major Roads.
Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org schrieb: snip (Does the Village on the map between Meopham, Sole Street, A2 and Southfleet and Sole Street have a name?) I recently created a map overlay with localities from the National Public Transport Gazetteer (part of the NaPTAN import). The NPTG data should have the name of the village. You can find the overlay on: http://www.mappa-mercia.org/nptg-viewer/ Hope that helps! Christoph ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
