Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Dan S]

2017-03-24 11:31 GMT+00:00 Andy Mabbett :
> On 24 March 2017 at 00:48, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>> On 19/03/2017 14:57, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>>
>>> "On 19 March 2017 at 13:13, ajt1...@gmail.com  wrote:

 On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
> outrageous.

 No, he was sent this message:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271
>>>
>>> Which opens with the words "brianboru blocked by SomeoneElse"
>
> [Snip long explanation confirming that Brian was indeed blocked]

Andy M, you're being pedantic. The "block" mechanism was used to send
a message to him, with no blocking effect in practice. It's clear as
day.

Dan

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Andy Robinson]

Harry, and everyone else, 
I'm sure Brian will get back to everyone on all of this when he's back in 
circulation. He's not been around since these issues were raised. There is 
obviously a lot to digest and clearly there are some specific points to take on 
board so I'm sure when he's had time to go through everything we can move on.

Cheers and happy mapping.

Andy

-Original Message-
From: Harry Wood [mailto:m...@harrywood.co.uk] 
Sent: 24 March 2017 15:18
To: Andy Townsend; Andy Mabbett
Cc: talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

I've created a wiki page specifically about the tree data import.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data

It would be better if somebody involved in running the import, would do this 
(per the Import Guidelines), but I've drawn together various info I could find 
from Brian's blog posts, and from poking at the data myself.

I didn't poke at the origin data. We could document the complete list of fields 
they provide.
Also is the whole data set is now imported? I count ~43000 nodes, but Brian's 
blog mentions 76,000 trees. How many changesets was that? To what extent has 
the data now been modified after import? What is 'usrn'?

Harry

Andy Townsend wrote:
> If it exists, an actual link would be really useful here.  I'm aware 
> of 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2017-Ma
> rch/002127.html but that is by no means a "well-defined and 
> transparent plan".
...
> It'd be great to be able to move forward here - to identify the parts 
> of the process that were missed, to have a discussion about tags 
> (including answering e.g. Will's questions from 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-March/020058.ht
> ml ).  The replies to this thread make it pretty clear that the West 
> Midlands group has some work to do to persuade the majority of the UK 
> OSM community that the approach taken so far is a good one.

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Harry Wood]

I've created a wiki page specifically about the tree data import.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data

It would be better if somebody involved in running the import, would do this 
(per the Import Guidelines), but I've drawn together various info I could find 
from Brian's blog posts, and from poking at the data myself.

I didn't poke at the origin data. We could document the complete list of fields 
they provide.
Also is the whole data set is now imported? I count ~43000 nodes, but Brian's 
blog mentions 76,000 trees. How many changesets was that? To what extent has 
the data now been modified after import? What is 'usrn'?

Harry

Andy Townsend wrote:
> If it exists, an actual link would be really useful here.  I'm aware of 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2017-March/002127.html
>  
> but that is by no means a "well-defined and transparent plan". 
...
> It'd be great to be able to move forward here - to identify the parts of 
> the process that were missed, to have a discussion about tags (including 
> answering e.g. Will's questions from 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-March/020058.html 
> ).  The replies to this thread make it pretty clear that the West 
> Midlands group has some work to do to persuade the majority of the UK 
> OSM community that the approach taken so far is a good one.

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Andy Allan]

On 20 March 2017 at 12:34, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't
> know about them.

I have emails from Brian discussing imports as far back as 2009. I
find it unlikely that with 8 years of experience he could be
completely unaware of the import guidelines.

> Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a
> worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have
> time to think with a fresh mind.

I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to
ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already".

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Dan S]

2017-03-20 12:17 GMT+00:00 Andy Allan :
> On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't
>> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane
>> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a
>> locally supported project.
>
> We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and
> battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have
> chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could
> have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever
> you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been
> reached.
>
> However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things
> you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of
> our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply
> saddened by the attitude.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy

I'm nervous of joining this painful thread, in which so many people
have said things I object to - but I'm concerned. So I'll try to be
minimalist: I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and
Richard Fairhurst.

Best
Dan

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Andy Allan]

On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't
> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane
> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a
> locally supported project.

We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and
battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have
chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could
have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever
you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been
reached.

However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things
you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of
our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply
saddened by the attitude.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Andy,

Sure. Might have to give us a few days though before we come back to you.

Can you also look at the import guidelines as it feels very heavy handed
(almost police state) currently? I appreciate this is a big ask (I help
SotM WG and understand the pressure WGs can be under) but I wonder whether
having a more supportive process would be better and result in less work
for the DWG in the long run.

For example we could have a place that welcomes people who have third party
data. It would guide them through the process of validating the licence and
the data attributes (e.g. upload a sample for a crack team of OSM
experienced members to review the data and propose sensible tags). This
would be a much nicer experience than the current interrogation approach.
It would also prevent the filibuster type responses you get via
unstructured email.

Best regards,

*Rob*

On 20 March 2017 at 22:39, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 20/03/2017 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
>>
>> Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in
>> a worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we
>> have time to think with a fresh mind.
>>
>
> Thanks Rob.  Looking forward from here, would it be possible to document
> where we are with the "trees" import (i.e. what's been decided so far - was
> it "yes we'll import it, with these tags" or "yes we'll import it, and
> we'll sort out the tagging later" or something else?) and also if possible
> fill in some of the other gaps (e.g. how to handle changes from the source
> dataset in the future)?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/03/2017 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote:


Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be 
in a worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines 
when we have time to think with a fresh mind.


Thanks Rob.  Looking forward from here, would it be possible to document 
where we are with the "trees" import (i.e. what's been decided so far - 
was it "yes we'll import it, with these tags" or "yes we'll import it, 
and we'll sort out the tagging later" or something else?) and also if 
possible fill in some of the other gaps (e.g. how to handle changes from 
the source dataset in the future)?


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Andy,

I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't
know about them.

I'm worn out from many years trying to discuss improvements but getting the
equivalent of a parliamentary filibuster.

I personally think best way to solve this is to allow local communities
(those that are well established) to have greater power to decide
themselves. With a loose set of governing _guidelines_ (not prescriptive
rules).

This came across too negatively yesterday, for which I'm sorry.

Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a
worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have
time to think with a fresh mind.

Rob




On 20 Mar 2017 12:17 p.m., "Andy Allan"  wrote:

On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't
> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane
> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a
> locally supported project.

We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and
battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have
chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could
have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever
you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been
reached.

However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things
you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of
our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply
saddened by the attitude.

Thanks,
Andy
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