Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops suspended
If they’re physically still there leave the nodes there but temporarily remove them from the affected route relations? From: Andy Mabbett [mailto:a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk] Sent: 03 October 2017 08:51 To: talk-gb-westmidlands <Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org> Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops suspended For a supposed "trial period" a number of bus stops in Birmingham have bel withdrawn from use: https://www.tfwm.org.uk/news/trial-closure-of-little-used-bus-stops-in-bid-to-speed-up-journey-times/ http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/your-bus-stop-going-axed-13681495 How should they be tagged, given the hope that they will return to service? Has anyone done this yet? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops suspended
For a supposed "trial period" a number of bus stops in Birmingham have bel withdrawn from use: https://www.tfwm.org.uk/news/trial-closure-of-little-used-bus-stops-in-bid-to-speed-up-journey-times/ http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/your-bus-stop-going-axed-13681495 How should they be tagged, given the hope that they will return to service? Has anyone done this yet? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Hi Matthijs I can't see the point of putting Naptan:Street into the name - it will just repeat information that's already there in the street itself. Common name only is what is used I believe in the rest of the UK. I haven't asked the obvious question which is why do this at all? I'm a bit concerned that this might clutter up the transport layer, but I don't know which field is used here You should also be aware that this data is is very old - I think at least 5 years many of the bus stops simply do not exist any longer and many have been created that are not here. We might do better to see if we can get a more up to date set locally from Centro, before spending too much time on this. Or perhaps we should revisit the release of data at a national level? regards Brian On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:42 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, As I mentioned in my previous thread, I would like to populate the name field of bus stops in the West Midlands. I would like to use the following format: - For stops with blue flags, set name=First_line_on_pole/Second_line_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:Street/Naptan:CommonName). - For black poles, set name=Text_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:CommonName). - Set local_ref to the two/three character reference (this normally corresponds to local_ref=YF where Naptan:indicator=Stop YF). I have this also documented on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes . This proposal only describes how we want the name tag and local_ref tag to be set. When I'm ready to do a mechanical edit, I will write a separate proposal to discuss that. For now, I will execute only manual edits (in line with the above proposal) for stops that I have actually surveyed (mainly in the city center). Please let me know if you have any comments. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Hi Brian,
Thank you for your feedback. I will address your points one by one.
On 3 February 2014 19:55, Brian Prangle br...@mappa-mercia.org wrote:
I can't see the point of putting Naptan:Street into the name - it will just
repeat information that's already there in the street itself. Common name
only is what is used I believe in the rest of the UK.
In fact it is fairly common to use the street name as part of the stop
name. Other counties where it is done like that are Wear and Tyne,
Cumbria, West Yorkshire, Kingston upon Hull, South Yorkshire, Greater
Manchester, Merseyside, and Norfolk.
Also take into account that we have a bit of an exceptional situation
in the West Midlands: first, in the West Midlands, both naptan:Street
and naptan:CommonName are displayed on the bus stops, while other
counties (like Warwickshire for example) only display
naptan:CommonName. On the bus stops in Birmingham city centre,
naptan:Street is even the only text being displayed. Second, in the
West Midlands, naptan:CommonName does not uniquely identify a stop:
there might be multiple stops with the same naptan:CommonName.
I haven't asked the obvious question which is why do this at all?
I think there are a couple of advantages of having the name field populated:
- If you are at a bus stop, you can search for the bus stop at the map
(either visually by looking at the map, or with a search function);
- The same holds if you are instructed to find a bus stop with a
particular name;
- If your navigator guides you to a particular bus stop, you can
visually check if you have found the right one;
- If you don't have GPS signal in the bus, you can check from inside
the bus where you are at the map by looking outside and reading the
bus stop names;
- Public transport planners can generate a list of all stops of a
particular route.
That's what I can think of now, but there are probably many more uses.
I'm a bit concerned that this might clutter up the transport layer, but I
don't know which field is used here
The transport layer uses both name (as text next to the stop) and
indicator (in the circle). Do you think Manchester or Liverpool look
currently cluttered? They use the same scheme. In any case, the
argument is not really relevant, I think: clutter is for the renders
to solve, we as mappers should only be concerned with mapping as
accurately as possible ('don't tag for the renderer').
You should also be aware that this data is is very old - I think at least 5
years many of the bus stops simply do not exist any longer and many have
been created that are not here. We might do better to see if we can get a
more up to date set locally from Centro, before spending too much time on
this.
I have the impression that most Naptan data is still fine, except for
a couple of areas where large changes have occurred. One of them is
the new Elizabeth hospital, where I have manually added the new bus
stops, and another is the city centre, which you have dealt with.
Probably there are more of such areas, but I did some checks on buses
I took, and the majority of the bus stops are still fine.
I would be hesitant to do a new import, because local mappers have
changed the initially imported data quite a lot, like putting bus
stops on the correct place, and it would be a shame to revert their
work by doing a new naptan import. I think it would be more useful to
have more local mappers surveying bus stops. I also think that if we
have the names visible on the Transport layer then it will be easier
for mappers to spot outdated or incorrect data.
Or perhaps we should revisit the release of data at a national level?
Populating the name field cannot be done on a national level, because
not in all counties is it desirable that the Street field is included
in the name field.
Please let me know if you have any more questions. I will halt my
edits for at least a week or whatever more time we need to discuss
this.
-- Matthijs
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[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Dear all, As I mentioned in my previous thread, I would like to populate the name field of bus stops in the West Midlands. I would like to use the following format: - For stops with blue flags, set name=First_line_on_pole/Second_line_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:Street/Naptan:CommonName). - For black poles, set name=Text_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:CommonName). - Set local_ref to the two/three character reference (this normally corresponds to local_ref=YF where Naptan:indicator=Stop YF). I have this also documented on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes . This proposal only describes how we want the name tag and local_ref tag to be set. When I'm ready to do a mechanical edit, I will write a separate proposal to discuss that. For now, I will execute only manual edits (in line with the above proposal) for stops that I have actually surveyed (mainly in the city center). Please let me know if you have any comments. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Matthijs Please don't alter anything in the City Centre without a ground survey. I spent a lot of time surveying and reworking all this when the new bus routing system for the City Centre Interchange was reconfigured about a year ago. As far as I am aware all names in OSM in the City Centre correspond to ground truth. NapTAN data for the City Centre is way out of date and should not be used. You might find some old NapTAN nodes that I didn't get round to deleting - they can be ignnored as they no longer exist - I think I kept some of them from nostalgia- having spent lots of my life waiting for buses there! Regards Brian Regards Brian On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: On 17 November 2013 23:19, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: My main concern is that I'm not convinced that bus stops even have a name in the UK. There seems to be indeed some variation in what name is being used. But there is some logic. For example, one I just looked at in Coventry has the words Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common on the sign, but on the National Express Coventry website it is referred to as Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH. Perhaps we should ask Centro what they consider the name to be. You picked a tricky example, because there is both a stop called 'Earlsdon Avenue North' on the street 'Hearsall Common' and a stop called 'Hearsall Common' on the street 'Earlsdon Avenue North'. To make it even trickier, line 12 uses one of these in one direction, and the other in the other direction. Let's focus for now on the stop on Earlsdon Ave North. Here is the naptan data: http://transport.data.gov.uk/doc/stop-point/43001052002 In other words, we have: - name: Hearsall Common - indicator: adj - street: EARLSDON AVE NTH - nptg locality: Earlsdon - town: COVENTRY I have seen the following names being used: - Name on bus stop: Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common - National Express: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, in time tables: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common - Network West Midlands, in planner: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common 1 - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map: Hearsall Common at EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map when displaying time tables: Hearsall Common - NetNav (Android app): Earlsdon, Hearsall Common 1 - Network WM (Android app), on map: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network WM (Android app), at departure times: Hearsall Common In other words, everyone uses some permutation of the Naptan data. Often it is chosen to include the street name, because there might exist multiple stops with the same common name. These stops with the same common name are sometimes even close together and/or on the same route. This problem does not occur in most other places. London and Cambridge have no duplicate common names. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Leeds include the street name already in the Common Name (like Hearsall Common/Earlsdon Ave Nth or Earlsdon Ave Nth Hearsall Common). The only other place I found which the same problem is Oxford. The community there has chosen to use the common name and ignores the street name (which leads to duplicate stop names on the map). Perhaps we should just follow the on-the-ground rule, and use what is written on the bus stops? As for adding the names to the map, can one of the locals please explain what the difference between SA and SQ1 is on the following example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48391/-1.89768layers=T I think these have SQ1 now. Looking on google streetview, I do not see any reference to SQ1 (although the text is a bit blurry). There is reference to City Centre SA. Maybe SA replaces SQ1? I think it is the other way around. The shelters on Google Streetview are the old style shelters, so probably the name has been changed from SA to SQ1. Having said this, I just checked out the travel websites and they still use SQ1. On the other hand new maps use SA instead: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/BhamCityCentre.pdf October 2011 is not really a new map anymore... Corporation Street is now closed for buses, so the routes are quite different now. Here is the 2012 version: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/Maps/BCCI_Transport_Guide_June_13_Part2.jpg Indeed all abbreviations have been changed. The new abbreviations correspond to what is on the bus stops. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Hi Brian, Don't worry, I will not cause damage. In particular, I will not let the mechanical edit touch any object that has already a name tag. Also, before I run the mechanical edit, I will make an announcement here, explain what it will do, and see if there is concensus in the group to go on. What do you mean with 'old NapTAN nodes'? Do they still have an highway=bus_stop tag? If yes, how do I recognize that they are old? -- Matthijs On 27 November 2013 20:12, Brian Prangle br...@mappa-mercia.org wrote: Matthijs Please don't alter anything in the City Centre without a ground survey. I spent a lot of time surveying and reworking all this when the new bus routing system for the City Centre Interchange was reconfigured about a year ago. As far as I am aware all names in OSM in the City Centre correspond to ground truth. NapTAN data for the City Centre is way out of date and should not be used. You might find some old NapTAN nodes that I didn't get round to deleting - they can be ignnored as they no longer exist - I think I kept some of them from nostalgia- having spent lots of my life waiting for buses there! Regards Brian Regards Brian On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: On 17 November 2013 23:19, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: My main concern is that I'm not convinced that bus stops even have a name in the UK. There seems to be indeed some variation in what name is being used. But there is some logic. For example, one I just looked at in Coventry has the words Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common on the sign, but on the National Express Coventry website it is referred to as Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH. Perhaps we should ask Centro what they consider the name to be. You picked a tricky example, because there is both a stop called 'Earlsdon Avenue North' on the street 'Hearsall Common' and a stop called 'Hearsall Common' on the street 'Earlsdon Avenue North'. To make it even trickier, line 12 uses one of these in one direction, and the other in the other direction. Let's focus for now on the stop on Earlsdon Ave North. Here is the naptan data: http://transport.data.gov.uk/doc/stop-point/43001052002 In other words, we have: - name: Hearsall Common - indicator: adj - street: EARLSDON AVE NTH - nptg locality: Earlsdon - town: COVENTRY I have seen the following names being used: - Name on bus stop: Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common - National Express: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, in time tables: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common - Network West Midlands, in planner: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common 1 - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map: Hearsall Common at EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map when displaying time tables: Hearsall Common - NetNav (Android app): Earlsdon, Hearsall Common 1 - Network WM (Android app), on map: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network WM (Android app), at departure times: Hearsall Common In other words, everyone uses some permutation of the Naptan data. Often it is chosen to include the street name, because there might exist multiple stops with the same common name. These stops with the same common name are sometimes even close together and/or on the same route. This problem does not occur in most other places. London and Cambridge have no duplicate common names. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Leeds include the street name already in the Common Name (like Hearsall Common/Earlsdon Ave Nth or Earlsdon Ave Nth Hearsall Common). The only other place I found which the same problem is Oxford. The community there has chosen to use the common name and ignores the street name (which leads to duplicate stop names on the map). Perhaps we should just follow the on-the-ground rule, and use what is written on the bus stops? As for adding the names to the map, can one of the locals please explain what the difference between SA and SQ1 is on the following example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48391/-1.89768layers=T I think these have SQ1 now. Looking on google streetview, I do not see any reference to SQ1 (although the text is a bit blurry). There is reference to City Centre SA. Maybe SA replaces SQ1? I think it is the other way around. The shelters on Google Streetview are the old style shelters, so probably the name has been changed from SA to SQ1. Having said this, I just checked out the travel websites and they still use SQ1. On the other hand new maps use SA instead: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/BhamCityCentre.pdf October 2011 is not really a new map anymore... Corporation Street is now closed for buses, so the routes are quite different now. Here is the 2012 version: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/Maps/BCCI_Transport_Guide_June_13_Part2.jpg Indeed
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Hi all, Been following this discussion. My only thoughts would be that having the name for something, such as a Bus Stop makes a lot of sense and it should be in a recognised field, not buried in a local subset of data. However, this should be programmatically addressed on a national level. My other point is that we should, never, ever, ever, never enter data or omit data because of the renderer. That is rule number 1 in any data collection handbook, a cardinal rule in the religion of information storage and one of the seven deadly sins in describing anything :-) As an example, I think the tagging of landuse around Coventry makes the map look confusing, it make Coventry look huge and merged with Birmingham, but that is the problem of the renderer choosing similar colour pallettes, Brian shouldn't stop tagging landuse correctly, just because it looks bad! ;-) Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 14/11/2013 12:00, Andy Robinson wrote: Hi Matthijs, You have a valid point, as is the point about unnecessary tags. I guess it's up to you if you want to add name tags. Just bear in mind that the name tag is currently in use in Birmingham, but only for those stops which have the two character plus number stop name. You only see these on stop signs at major interchange points. Eg: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48209/-1.89488layers=T Cheers Andy *From:*Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] *Sent:* 14 November 2013 10:07 *To:* Andy Robinson *Subject:* RE: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops I think it would be better to additionally use the name field, because that's the name that software can read. For example, when I search for bus stops around me, I get a list of 10 times the word 'bus stop'. It would be more useful to have the stop names there. Also, it would be useful to have the stop names on the transport layer. We can not expect international software to be aware of uk-specific tagging schemes. In addition, the naptan data can.be http://can.be wrong, and in that case, the name field wouldn't duplicate the naptan data. -- Matthijs On Nov 14, 2013 7:37 AM, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Since this information is already in the naptan tags why would we need to add it again under some other, eg name, tag? Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] Sent: 14 November 2013 01:41 To: talk-gb-westmidlands Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops Hi Brian, Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. To be honest, I don't agree with you there. Tagging for the renderer (not giving bus stops names because it would create a clutter) is usually seen as a bad idea, and I believe that's the case here as well. First, on the one hand the default rendering doesn't display bus stop names anyway, so there it wouldn't become a clutter. On the other hand, the Transport Map layer displays bus stops names on low zoom level, and street names only on the highest levels, so there the bus stop names would be useful to get an overview. Also don't forget that we are not creating a map, we are creating a geographical database. For example, you might want to ask your software for the closest bus stop. It would be nice if you could then get the bus stop name as an answer, for which the name tags are necessary. Or for example, you might want to generate a list of all stops of a given bus route, for which you also need the stop names. Also, not all common names are named after features already on the map (some are called 'middle' for example). For now, I think the best scheme I can think of would be StreetName, CommonName. That would follow the name on the signs, except that we use a comma where there is a line break on the shield. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
On 12 November 2013 09:49, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com wrote: For name, use whatever is on the bus stop sign Bus information points use two-letter codes ( stop DL, etc). What about using those? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
On 17 November 2013 22:03, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 12 November 2013 09:49, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com wrote: For name, use whatever is on the bus stop sign Bus information points use two-letter codes ( stop DL, etc). What about using those? These two-letter codes are not unique within the city. For example, both Weoley Castle and Winson Green have a stop WA. Also, only stops that are part of an interchange have a two-letter code. Most stops have no such code. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
On 17 November 2013 23:19, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: My main concern is that I'm not convinced that bus stops even have a name in the UK. There seems to be indeed some variation in what name is being used. But there is some logic. For example, one I just looked at in Coventry has the words Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common on the sign, but on the National Express Coventry website it is referred to as Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH. Perhaps we should ask Centro what they consider the name to be. You picked a tricky example, because there is both a stop called 'Earlsdon Avenue North' on the street 'Hearsall Common' and a stop called 'Hearsall Common' on the street 'Earlsdon Avenue North'. To make it even trickier, line 12 uses one of these in one direction, and the other in the other direction. Let's focus for now on the stop on Earlsdon Ave North. Here is the naptan data: http://transport.data.gov.uk/doc/stop-point/43001052002 In other words, we have: - name: Hearsall Common - indicator: adj - street: EARLSDON AVE NTH - nptg locality: Earlsdon - town: COVENTRY I have seen the following names being used: - Name on bus stop: Earlsdon Ave North linebreak Hearsall Common - National Express: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, in time tables: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common - Network West Midlands, in planner: Earlsdon, (adj), Hearsall Common 1 - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map: Hearsall Common at EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network West Midlands, at Live Travel Map when displaying time tables: Hearsall Common - NetNav (Android app): Earlsdon, Hearsall Common 1 - Network WM (Android app), on map: Hearsall Common, EARLSDON AVE NTH - Network WM (Android app), at departure times: Hearsall Common In other words, everyone uses some permutation of the Naptan data. Often it is chosen to include the street name, because there might exist multiple stops with the same common name. These stops with the same common name are sometimes even close together and/or on the same route. This problem does not occur in most other places. London and Cambridge have no duplicate common names. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Leeds include the street name already in the Common Name (like Hearsall Common/Earlsdon Ave Nth or Earlsdon Ave Nth Hearsall Common). The only other place I found which the same problem is Oxford. The community there has chosen to use the common name and ignores the street name (which leads to duplicate stop names on the map). Perhaps we should just follow the on-the-ground rule, and use what is written on the bus stops? As for adding the names to the map, can one of the locals please explain what the difference between SA and SQ1 is on the following example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48391/-1.89768layers=T I think these have SQ1 now. Looking on google streetview, I do not see any reference to SQ1 (although the text is a bit blurry). There is reference to City Centre SA. Maybe SA replaces SQ1? I think it is the other way around. The shelters on Google Streetview are the old style shelters, so probably the name has been changed from SA to SQ1. Having said this, I just checked out the travel websites and they still use SQ1. On the other hand new maps use SA instead: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/BhamCityCentre.pdf October 2011 is not really a new map anymore... Corporation Street is now closed for buses, so the routes are quite different now. Here is the 2012 version: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/web/FILES/Maps/BCCI_Transport_Guide_June_13_Part2.jpg Indeed all abbreviations have been changed. The new abbreviations correspond to what is on the bus stops. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
+1 to Andy that's my point entirely! On 14 November 2013 07:37, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Since this information is already in the naptan tags why would we need to add it again under some other, eg name, tag? Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] Sent: 14 November 2013 01:41 To: talk-gb-westmidlands Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops Hi Brian, Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. To be honest, I don't agree with you there. Tagging for the renderer (not giving bus stops names because it would create a clutter) is usually seen as a bad idea, and I believe that's the case here as well. First, on the one hand the default rendering doesn't display bus stop names anyway, so there it wouldn't become a clutter. On the other hand, the Transport Map layer displays bus stops names on low zoom level, and street names only on the highest levels, so there the bus stop names would be useful to get an overview. Also don't forget that we are not creating a map, we are creating a geographical database. For example, you might want to ask your software for the closest bus stop. It would be nice if you could then get the bus stop name as an answer, for which the name tags are necessary. Or for example, you might want to generate a list of all stops of a given bus route, for which you also need the stop names. Also, not all common names are named after features already on the map (some are called 'middle' for example). For now, I think the best scheme I can think of would be StreetName, CommonName. That would follow the name on the signs, except that we use a comma where there is a line break on the shield. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13 ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Hi Matthijs, You have a valid point, as is the point about unnecessary tags. I guess it's up to you if you want to add name tags. Just bear in mind that the name tag is currently in use in Birmingham, but only for those stops which have the two character plus number stop name. You only see these on stop signs at major interchange points. Eg: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48209/-1.89488 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.48209/-1.89488layers=T layers=T Cheers Andy From: Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] Sent: 14 November 2013 10:07 To: Andy Robinson Subject: RE: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops I think it would be better to additionally use the name field, because that's the name that software can read. For example, when I search for bus stops around me, I get a list of 10 times the word 'bus stop'. It would be more useful to have the stop names there. Also, it would be useful to have the stop names on the transport layer. We can not expect international software to be aware of uk-specific tagging schemes. In addition, the naptan data can.be wrong, and in that case, the name field wouldn't duplicate the naptan data. -- Matthijs On Nov 14, 2013 7:37 AM, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Since this information is already in the naptan tags why would we need to add it again under some other, eg name, tag? Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] Sent: 14 November 2013 01:41 To: talk-gb-westmidlands Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops Hi Brian, Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. To be honest, I don't agree with you there. Tagging for the renderer (not giving bus stops names because it would create a clutter) is usually seen as a bad idea, and I believe that's the case here as well. First, on the one hand the default rendering doesn't display bus stop names anyway, so there it wouldn't become a clutter. On the other hand, the Transport Map layer displays bus stops names on low zoom level, and street names only on the highest levels, so there the bus stop names would be useful to get an overview. Also don't forget that we are not creating a map, we are creating a geographical database. For example, you might want to ask your software for the closest bus stop. It would be nice if you could then get the bus stop name as an answer, for which the name tags are necessary. Or for example, you might want to generate a list of all stops of a given bus route, for which you also need the stop names. Also, not all common names are named after features already on the map (some are called 'middle' for example). For now, I think the best scheme I can think of would be StreetName, CommonName. That would follow the name on the signs, except that we use a comma where there is a line break on the shield. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13 _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13 ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
On 12 November 2013 09:49, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com wrote: For name, use whatever is on the bus stop sign. So in this example: http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/65797/article_346b19a79c148b9f_1342893529_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg name=Corporation St (or perhaps Street rather than St – not sure if we expand road names when they aren’t being used as road names) The shields in Birmingham say StreetName linebreak CommonName. That might indeed be the best option. We are just leaving out the interchange name then. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Hi Brian, Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. To be honest, I don't agree with you there. Tagging for the renderer (not giving bus stops names because it would create a clutter) is usually seen as a bad idea, and I believe that's the case here as well. First, on the one hand the default rendering doesn't display bus stop names anyway, so there it wouldn't become a clutter. On the other hand, the Transport Map layer displays bus stops names on low zoom level, and street names only on the highest levels, so there the bus stop names would be useful to get an overview. Also don't forget that we are not creating a map, we are creating a geographical database. For example, you might want to ask your software for the closest bus stop. It would be nice if you could then get the bus stop name as an answer, for which the name tags are necessary. Or for example, you might want to generate a list of all stops of a given bus route, for which you also need the stop names. Also, not all common names are named after features already on the map (some are called 'middle' for example). For now, I think the best scheme I can think of would be StreetName, CommonName. That would follow the name on the signs, except that we use a comma where there is a line break on the shield. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Since this information is already in the naptan tags why would we need to add it again under some other, eg name, tag? Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Matthijs Melissen [mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl] Sent: 14 November 2013 01:41 To: talk-gb-westmidlands Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops Hi Brian, Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. To be honest, I don't agree with you there. Tagging for the renderer (not giving bus stops names because it would create a clutter) is usually seen as a bad idea, and I believe that's the case here as well. First, on the one hand the default rendering doesn't display bus stop names anyway, so there it wouldn't become a clutter. On the other hand, the Transport Map layer displays bus stops names on low zoom level, and street names only on the highest levels, so there the bus stop names would be useful to get an overview. Also don't forget that we are not creating a map, we are creating a geographical database. For example, you might want to ask your software for the closest bus stop. It would be nice if you could then get the bus stop name as an answer, for which the name tags are necessary. Or for example, you might want to generate a list of all stops of a given bus route, for which you also need the stop names. Also, not all common names are named after features already on the map (some are called 'middle' for example). For now, I think the best scheme I can think of would be StreetName, CommonName. That would follow the name on the signs, except that we use a comma where there is a line break on the shield. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3629/6833 - Release Date: 11/13/13 ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Hi Matthijs Generally I don't think adding names to bus stops adds anything to the map other than when it is an Interchange name- so they're the only ones I name. Why? Generally because adding a name consisting of a street name where the street name is already on the map I consider to be cartographic clutter and totally redundant. Common names also tend to duplicate features that are already named on the map and so are not really needed. For transport applications the data is there to be used - no need to add it in a name. This general principle of clutter from names is also why we haven't added ward boundaries in urban areas- there'd be text from boundary names running along roads that already have a name and the map would quickly become unusable. Regards Brian On 11 November 2013 23:20, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nlwrote: Dear all, I noticed that we have nearly all bus stops in Birmingham on the map, including Naptan data, but most of the stops don't have a name tag. For the stops where we do have name tags, these tags are formed inconsistently. Name tags are necessary in order to display the name on the Transport layer, and to make them searchable. In Birmingham, all bus stops have a street name (Naptan: Street), which is the first line on the blue area of the shield, and a common name (Naptan: CommonName), often the intersecting street, which is the second line on the shield. Neither CommonName nor Street are individually sufficient to uniquely identify a stop, but together, they are. Some stops also have a red shield containing the interchange name (not in Naptan) plus a two or three character reference (Naptan: Indicator). A bus might stop at multiple stops of the same interchange. An example of a bus stop: Weoley Castle (Interchange) WE (Indicator) Castle Sq (Street name) Somerfield (Common name) The question is now, which of these should we use for the name tag? Currently, all of the following formats are in use: Street; CommonName CommonName CommonName Indicator InterchangeName Indicator Indicator Which format should we aim for? It should also be noted that the Naptan data contains some mistakes. Should we first check whether Naptan is correct, and then fill in the name tag? Or can we already add the name tags, and verify later? The first has the advantage that we only display correct names, while the second has the advantage that we have data quicker, and that errors might get discovered more quickly because the stop names will be displayed on the map. Please let me know what you think. Best regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Matthijs asked: snip The question is now, which of these should we use for the name tag? snip Please let me know what you think. For name, use whatever is on the bus stop sign. So in this example: http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/65797/article_346b19a79c148b9f _1342893529_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg name=Corporation St (or perhaps Street rather than St – not sure if we expand road names when they aren’t being used as road names) The NaPTAN CommonName is perhaps a contender for loc_name Looking at the Birmingham data you might want to consider stop area relations too. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dstop_area Compare say: http://osm.org/go/euzMKgzcV-?m in Birmingham with http://osm.org/go/eutJJRRfr--?m in Oxford (you’ll need to switch to Transport layer as I can’t work out how to specify transport layer in a shortlink without it getting the zoom level wrong). Ed ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops
Dear all, I noticed that we have nearly all bus stops in Birmingham on the map, including Naptan data, but most of the stops don't have a name tag. For the stops where we do have name tags, these tags are formed inconsistently. Name tags are necessary in order to display the name on the Transport layer, and to make them searchable. In Birmingham, all bus stops have a street name (Naptan: Street), which is the first line on the blue area of the shield, and a common name (Naptan: CommonName), often the intersecting street, which is the second line on the shield. Neither CommonName nor Street are individually sufficient to uniquely identify a stop, but together, they are. Some stops also have a red shield containing the interchange name (not in Naptan) plus a two or three character reference (Naptan: Indicator). A bus might stop at multiple stops of the same interchange. An example of a bus stop: Weoley Castle (Interchange) WE (Indicator) Castle Sq (Street name) Somerfield (Common name) The question is now, which of these should we use for the name tag? Currently, all of the following formats are in use: Street; CommonName CommonName CommonName Indicator InterchangeName Indicator Indicator Which format should we aim for? It should also be noted that the Naptan data contains some mistakes. Should we first check whether Naptan is correct, and then fill in the name tag? Or can we already add the name tags, and verify later? The first has the advantage that we only display correct names, while the second has the advantage that we have data quicker, and that errors might get discovered more quickly because the stop names will be displayed on the map. Please let me know what you think. Best regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
