Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using OSM on TV
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:02 +0200, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 5:36 AM, visio...@petml.com wrote: I'm trying to determine what is required of my company with regard to the on-air broadcast of OSM data. I sell a product used in TV news. Part of my product consists of maps. Sometimes my maps use OSM data. Not always, in fact most clients are not using OSM data. Either way, for the ones that do I need to know what is required. I can't seem to find the requirements by searching the archives or reading the website. I see lots of opinions and suggestions but no hard decisions. I will be adding an OSM link in my application's acknowledgments section stating this app may make use of OSM data, a link to the web site, etc. However, I simply can't guarantee that my customers will attribute OSM during the broadcast. Furthermore, I don't see anywhere that describes exactly what my obligations are. Like I said previously, lots of opinions and suggestions but no hard requirement. Seems like there is a lot of wiggle room if someone simply did not want to attribute OSM in any way. Can someone comment and/or correct me if I'm wrong? Can anyone definitively state what is required with respect to OSM attribution for use in a TV broadcast? I will be doing the following: * letting my customers know we use OSM data * added the usual OSM acknowledgment in my application * add some sort of acknowledgment on my website that my application may make use of OSM data OpenStreetMap does not have concrete guidance for you yet. I wish that we did. Please consider Such credit may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Derivative Work or Collective Work, at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit So, if you or the broadcaster add a watermark to the video, and OpenStreetMap and cc watermark should be added. This is best because the attribution and license will stay with the clip if it is removed from the rest of the broadcast. By all rights this clip should be permitted to be removed from the broadcast and distributed further as ccbysa. Less desirable, because it loses immediacy and could be separated from the work, would be a credit roll at the show end. Again, let reasonable and similar prominence be your guide. If you get XL font size and n seconds on screen, so does OSM / CC so something like: Map segment by Vision TV (c) 2010 Maps and data ccbysa OpenStreetMap and contributors I like the idea of OSM maps used in broadcasts. Thanks for recognizing that the OSM and CC attribution are your obligation. The license extract quoted above is from the text of ccbysa, section 4c http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/legalcode If you distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly digitally perform the Work or any Derivative Works or Collective Works, You must keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and give the Original Author credit reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing by conveying the name (or pseudonym if applicable) of the Original Author if supplied; the title of the Work if supplied; to the extent reasonably practicable, the Uniform Resource Identifier, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work; and in the case of a Derivative Work, a credit identifying the use of the Work in the Derivative Work (e.g., French translation of the Work by Original Author, or Screenplay based on original Work by Original Author). Such credit may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Derivative Work or Collective Work, at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk Thank you Richard. I appreciate you taking the time out to respond. There are a lot of companies that have public facing products (TV for example) like mine which are in need of guidance. This does help. I'm sure this post will help others in the future. I would encourage the person(s) responsible for OSM licensing in the future to be as specific as possible when it comes to broadcast mediums such as TV and smartphones. Thanks everyone. I believe I have a clear path now. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using OSM on TV
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:28 +0200, Manuel Reimer manuel.s...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: visio...@petml.com wrote: Geesh. I'm starting to regret I even posted. I hope this kind of response isn't typical. I'm simply trying to be compliant and seeking to promote OSM data. Please, forget I asked. No follow-up response from you is desired. And I'm sorry to make you upset. Yes, there may be a language barrier and I may have misunderstood you. Sorry for that. For me, this read like you try to get some special permission to allow your customer to use OSM data without following the CC-BY-SA license. What I tried to make clear is that the person, who broadcasts Openstreetmap data also has follow the license terms, you'll find on this page: http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright One of your addresses: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Attribution_-_Guideline says that attribution on an associated website would also be OK. In my opinion this isn't the nice way, as a short displaying of where the data came from would be much better for the project, but if someone decided that attribution an an associated website is also OK, then this is OK. But the broadcaster will have to place this attribution on *his* website. A website, anyone can bring in association with the TV broadcast. I didn't know the specialities of the ODbL license. As far as I know, porting to this license is not finished, so data still ins CC-BY-SA licensed, only. Maybe someone else knows details about ODbL? My apologies to everyone if I come across as gruff. This guy just rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry for that! Yours Manuel My sincere apologies to you Manuel. I see that you were only trying to help and I reacted poorly. Thank you for the time you took out of your day to assist me. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using OSM on TV
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:43 +0200, Manuel Reimer manuel.s...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: visio...@petml.com wrote: What's required of my customers? I'm hoping that if I attribute on my website and in my app that will be enough. Some broadcasters are hesitant of using attribution. I've seen attribution on TV several times. Mostly for bigger companies like Microsoft. Why should this be impossible with an open project like openstreetmap? No one said it's impossible. Some broadcasters refuse to attribute so they won't use OSM data or other products that require attribution like Google Earth. In case that a broadcaster wants to send a picture with OSM data, he is the person, who uses the data and so he is the person who has to do what the license says. The license says (http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en): | How to credit OpenStreetMap | | If you are using OpenStreetMap map images, we request that your | credit reads at least “© OpenStreetMap contributors, CC-BY-SA”. If | you are using map data only, we request “Map data © OpenStreetMap | contributors, CC-BY-SA”. | | Where possible, OpenStreetMap should be hyperlinked to | http://www.openstreetmap.org/ and CC-BY-SA to | http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/. If you are using a | medium where links are not possible (e.g. a printed work), we suggest | you direct your readers to www.openstreetmap.org (perhaps by | expanding ‘OpenStreetMap’ to this full address) and to | www.creativecommons.org. That's what the license says and noone here will be able to tell you something else. That's not all it says. There is conflicting information. That's the point of my post. If you go back to my original post you will clearly see links I've referenced that pose much more liberal attribution requirements; and I use the word requirement somewhat jokingly. The information on the various OSM sites don't really provide clear guidance. Some portions say you don't have to attribute on the map itself and instead you can attribute in an acknowledgments section. Other OSM sites state that if you use OSM data in a TV broadcast that you do not even have to attribute on-air at all (which I find incredible); in those instances you can simply attribute on the affiliated web site. You'll have to forgive me for my confusion, but I didn't create this mess. Now, perhaps I'm misreading this stuff. Anyone with access to google can see what I'm referring to. I included this information in my original post. It's the job of the broadcaster to add this type of credit to his publication! If you don't tell your customers, that they have to respect the CC-BY-SA license, then what you do is to relicense data, you don't own, under a different license to your customer. Settle down pal. Know one said anything about hiding the fact we're using OSM. That's the reason I'm posting here seeking clarification. I want to be compliant. Sheesh. So much so as to flat out not use product requiring attribution. For example, some NBC affiliates won't use Google Earth due to the attribution requirements. That's why there are still mapping companies like Curious Maps. You don't have to pay. Anything, you have to do, is to name the author (openstreetmap.org contributors), so where is your problem? If your customer prefers to pay for data, that doesn't need attribution, he should pay for it. There must be some kind of language barrier. I realize I don't have to pay for OSM data. I was just using an example. You can't just take the openstreetmap.org data, without doing what the license says. If you don't like the license, then please don't use the data. Geesh. I'm starting to regret I even posted. I hope this kind of response isn't typical. I'm simply trying to be compliant and seeking to promote OSM data. Please, forget I asked. No follow-up response from you is desired. My apologies to everyone if I come across as gruff. This guy just rubbed me the wrong way. Some of these guys would rather pay than risk attributing an unknown product. One idea behind attribution is, that openstreetmap.org gets a more known project. Yours Manuel ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using OSM on TV
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:44 +0200, Manuel Reimer manuel.s...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: visio...@petml.com wrote: I'm not trying to hide from my customers that I use OSM data. However, some broadcasters simply may not attribute properly due to negligence or just not bothering. You could add a small Data CC-BY-SA www.openstreetmap.org directly in your generated map (maybe in the lower right corner). And add some note to your terms of use, that it is not allowed to remove this. Inform your customers about the CC-BY-SA license and that this license requires them to name the openstreetmap.org project as real owner of the data. Yours Manuel I realize what I could do in way of watermarking, forcing a logo in a portion of the map and so forth. What I'm trying to determine is what is required by the OSM license. If my understanding is correct, OSM uses Creative Commons 2.0; CC 2.0 states: Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work). So, what's required? As I stated in my original post, there is confusion (at least on my part) as to my obligation. Some examples state attributing OSM in the acknowledgments section of my application is sufficient. Other examples on the OSM license site state a website attribution is all that's required. I think a logo on-air would suffice. Maybe. Is the exact requirement stated in clear un-ambiguous terms anywhere? My clients have no desire to tell their viewers that OSM data is their data. They don't care that much about mapping to try and misrepresent the source of the data. Doesn't work that way in broadcast TV. These maps are used so briefly on-air. I will most certainly not mis-represent. As I stated, I will place OSM attribution in my app in the acknowledgments section. I will also pace OSM attribution on my website (the marketing/sales portion of the site not a OSM web app.) What's required of my customers? I'm hoping that if I attribute on my website and in my app that will be enough. Some broadcasters are hesitant of using attribution. So much so as to flat out not use product requiring attribution. For example, some NBC affiliates won't use Google Earth due to the attribution requirements. That's why there are still mapping companies like Curious Maps. Some of these guys would rather pay than risk attributing an unknown product. Thank you to everyone willing to take the time out to answer this. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] using OSM on TV
I'm trying to determine what is required of my company with regard to the on-air broadcast of OSM data. I sell a product used in TV news. Part of my product consists of maps. Sometimes my maps use OSM data. Not always, in fact most clients are not using OSM data. Either way, for the ones that do I need to know what is required. I can't seem to find the requirements by searching the archives or reading the website. I see lots of opinions and suggestions but no hard decisions. I will be adding an OSM link in my application's acknowledgments section stating this app may make use of OSM data, a link to the web site, etc. However, I simply can't guarantee that my customers will attribute OSM during the broadcast. Furthermore, I don't see anywhere that describes exactly what my obligations are. Like I said previously, lots of opinions and suggestions but no hard requirement. Seems like there is a lot of wiggle room if someone simply did not want to attribute OSM in any way. Can someone comment and/or correct me if I'm wrong? Can anyone definitively state what is required with respect to OSM attribution for use in a TV broadcast? I will be doing the following: * letting my customers know we use OSM data * added the usual OSM acknowledgment in my application * add some sort of acknowledgment on my website that my application may make use of OSM data I'm not trying to hide from my customers that I use OSM data. However, some broadcasters simply may not attribute properly due to negligence or just not bothering. What is required of my customers? Is there any sort of authority on this subject? Is there any hard requirements? Seems very ambiguous to me. Very loose. Here are the posts I've read: * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F -- Note that the printed map attribution suggests placement in the acknowledgments section and not on the map itself. * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_Licence/Use_Cases -- There's a discussion about TV news attribution. The user may however supply credits on an associated website rather than within the program itself. * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Attribution_-_Guideline -- The user may however supply credits on an associated website rather than within the program itself. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
