[Talk-ro] Tag-uri addr:* folosite pe highways
Salut tuturor, Pe parcursul editarilor mele pe Romania, am intalnit destul de multe cazuri in care tag-uri precum addr: * (addr:city=*, addr:country=* sau addr:street=*) sunt puse pe highway-uri. Din punctul meu de vedere si a celor scrise pe pagina de wiki OSM acestea ar trebui utilizate doar in cazul punctelor (nodes) sau poligonelor (area) ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr) . Cu atat mai mult, tag-urile addr:country=* si addr:city=* sunt redundante in interiorul limitelor administrative, iar in cazul tag-ului addr:street=* valoarea e aceasi cu cea name=*. Oare tag-urile in cauza au fost puse pe highways cu un anumit scop sau sunt doar niste taguri folosite eronat? Stiti ceva legat de acest subiect? Intreb in ideea in care apar si in Validation Tool-ul din JOSM ca Warning si ma gandeam sa le corectez odata cu editarile ce le voi face pe viitor. Dar inainte de toate, as vrea sa aud si parerile voastre. Orice raspuns mi-ar fi de mare ajutor. Merci anticipat. Andrei S ___ Talk-ro mailing list Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro
Re: [Talk-ro] Conventii si drumuri
On 2016-03-12 6:54 PM, Strainu wrote: > În data de 12 martie 2016, 17:48, Andrei B <andrix...@yahoo.com> a scris: >> >> On 2016-03-12 5:00 PM, Strainu wrote: >>> În data de 10 martie 2016, 17:10, Andrei B <andrix...@yahoo.com> a scris: >>>> Salut, >>>> >>>> Am o intrebare despre conventiile pentru Romania: >>>> >>>> autostrada = motorway >>>> Drum National (DNxxx) + Drum European (Exxx) = trunk ? ( sau primary road? >>>> ) >>>> Drum National (DNxxx) = primary road? >>>> Drum Judetean (DJxxx) = secondary road? >>>> Drum Comunal (DCxxx) = tertiary road? >>>> >>>> Conform >>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence >>>> intuitia mea ar fi corecta, si unele drumuri in si/sau din Pitesti ar fi >>>> marcate gresit. >>>> >>>> Ma uitam la urmatoarea intersectie din Pitesti: >>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/44.8687/24.8845 >>>> DN7 cu DN73. Fiind vorba de ambele drumuri cu titulatura "DN", ma >>>> intrebam de ce apar cu culori diferite. >>>> La fel si aici: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.8908/24.8232 >>>> >>>> DN7 nu apare ( cel putin in Wiki https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN7 ) ca >>>> facand parte din vreun drum european. Nu gasesc alte referinte intre DN7 >>>> si drum european. Totusi, care este statutul acestuia? >>>> Daca da, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este gresit, >>>> si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este corect? >>>> Daca nu, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este corect, >>>> si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este gresit? >>>> >>>> DN73 (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN73 ) este marcat ca facand parte >>>> din E574 pe traseul Craiova - Pitesti - Brasov - Tg. Secuiesc - Onesti - >>>> Bacau. Se continua cu DN65 catre Craiova in SV Pitesti-ului. >>>> DN65 apare si el ca "trunk". >>> Nu înțeleg de ce vi se pare diferit față de Wiki? DN73 e si E, deci e >>> trunk; DN7 nu e E, deci e primary. Care e problema exact? >> Nelamurirea mea este ca de ce la intrarea din SE DN7 e primary (ok, nu >> este E, deci dupa aceasta regula e ok), iar la iesirea din nord, catre >> Ramnicu Valcea, DN7 este trunk (desi in continuare nu are conotatia de E) ? > Am înțeles acum. Între Pitești și Sibiu, DN7 e E68. [1] Ah. Multumesc de clarificare. > >> Cealalta nelamurire s-a lamurit, in sensul ca in interiorul oraselor, >> unde nu este centura, nu se pun drumuri trunk. (am inteles bine?) > Cred că v-ați dat seama din mesajele de mai sus că nu există > unanimitate :) Eu sunt de părere că nu trebuie generalizat: o altă > clasificare are sens doar în "capetele" de drum, unde structura > orașului nu se mulează în jurul drumului național. O regulă simplă ar > fi: dacă orașul apare în partea de sus a bornelor kilometrice, atunci > schimbi clasificarea în oraș, dacă nu, ții drumul ca trunk. Din nou, > asta e părerea mea, dar văd că în mare parte așa arată și pe hartă. > > Strainu > > > [1] > https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%99ier:Drumurile_europene_in_Romania.svg > (harta e neactualizată cu ultimele porțiuni de autostradă, dar în zona > care ne interesează nu contează) > [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/45.3842/27.0376 >>> Strainu >>> >>> ___ >>> Talk-ro mailing list >>> Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro >> >> ___ >> Talk-ro mailing list >> Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro > ___ > Talk-ro mailing list > Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro ___ Talk-ro mailing list Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro
Re: [Talk-ro] Conventii si drumuri
On 2016-03-12 5:00 PM, Strainu wrote: > În data de 10 martie 2016, 17:10, Andrei B <andrix...@yahoo.com> a scris: >> Salut, >> >> Am o intrebare despre conventiile pentru Romania: >> >> autostrada = motorway >> Drum National (DNxxx) + Drum European (Exxx) = trunk ? ( sau primary road? ) >> Drum National (DNxxx) = primary road? >> Drum Judetean (DJxxx) = secondary road? >> Drum Comunal (DCxxx) = tertiary road? >> >> Conform >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence >> intuitia mea ar fi corecta, si unele drumuri in si/sau din Pitesti ar fi >> marcate gresit. >> >> Ma uitam la urmatoarea intersectie din Pitesti: >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/44.8687/24.8845 >> DN7 cu DN73. Fiind vorba de ambele drumuri cu titulatura "DN", ma >> intrebam de ce apar cu culori diferite. >> La fel si aici: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.8908/24.8232 >> >> DN7 nu apare ( cel putin in Wiki https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN7 ) ca >> facand parte din vreun drum european. Nu gasesc alte referinte intre DN7 >> si drum european. Totusi, care este statutul acestuia? >> Daca da, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este gresit, >> si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este corect? >> Daca nu, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este corect, >> si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este gresit? >> >> DN73 (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN73 ) este marcat ca facand parte >> din E574 pe traseul Craiova - Pitesti - Brasov - Tg. Secuiesc - Onesti - >> Bacau. Se continua cu DN65 catre Craiova in SV Pitesti-ului. >> DN65 apare si el ca "trunk". > Nu înțeleg de ce vi se pare diferit față de Wiki? DN73 e si E, deci e > trunk; DN7 nu e E, deci e primary. Care e problema exact? Nelamurirea mea este ca de ce la intrarea din SE DN7 e primary (ok, nu este E, deci dupa aceasta regula e ok), iar la iesirea din nord, catre Ramnicu Valcea, DN7 este trunk (desi in continuare nu are conotatia de E) ? Cealalta nelamurire s-a lamurit, in sensul ca in interiorul oraselor, unde nu este centura, nu se pun drumuri trunk. (am inteles bine?) > > Strainu > > ___ > Talk-ro mailing list > Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro ___ Talk-ro mailing list Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro
Re: [Talk-ro] Conventii si drumuri
Foarte de acord. De aceea am si intrebat, nu numai cu titlu "academic", ci si cu exemple concrete. On 2016-03-10 5:59 PM, Gabriel Sebastian Moise wrote: > Nu neaparat se vor respecta echivalente de DJ - Secondary.. > Exista cazuri in care un DJ poate fi Tertiary datorita faptului ca > trebuie scazut rangul drumului din motive de rutare, si / sau asfalul > este echivalent cu un camp dupa razboi , si ai o alternativa care nu > ocolesti sa ajungi unde trebuie pe alta ruta ! > > Nu va apucati sa modificati ranguri de drumuri, folosind numai un > tabel de echivalenta , pentru ca stricati rutarea de nu va inchipuiti. > > De exemplu in Sinaia PH, DN-ul trece prin localitate dar si Here pune > rang mai mic pe el si lasa ca ruta aleasa si rutarea sa se faca pe > centura , si nu prin oras ! In oras e DN-ul e Primary si centura e > Trunk ! > > Exemple sunt multe prin toate judetele ! > > Cu cat drumul are o importanta mai mare, cu atat rangul creste, si cu > cat drumul e mai nasol... cu atat rangul scade ! > > De exemplu in Buzau la Serata Monteoru are DJ203G care are un pavaj > nasol, este tertiary. Nu este asfaltat. > > DN73A este secondary, drum degradat in stare jalnica, m-am ales cu > set de bucsi , pivoti si antiroliu Nu ai ce ocoli.. > > Inca odata, nu va apucati sa modificati categoria de drumuri in tara , > dupa tabele ! Categoriile de drumuri sunt un subiect sensibil .. > si vorbim de multa atentie ! > > > În data de 10 martie 2016, 17:10, Andrei B [via GIS] <[hidden email] > > a scris: > > Salut, > > Am o intrebare despre conventiile pentru Romania: > > autostrada = motorway > Drum National (DNxxx) + Drum European (Exxx) = trunk ? ( sau > primary road? ) > Drum National (DNxxx) = primary road? > Drum Judetean (DJxxx) = secondary road? > Drum Comunal (DCxxx) = tertiary road? > > Conform > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence > intuitia mea ar fi corecta, si unele drumuri in si/sau din Pitesti > ar fi > marcate gresit. > > Ma uitam la urmatoarea intersectie din Pitesti: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/44.8687/24.8845 > DN7 cu DN73. Fiind vorba de ambele drumuri cu titulatura "DN", ma > intrebam de ce apar cu culori diferite. > La fel si aici: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.8908/24.8232 > > DN7 nu apare ( cel putin in Wiki > https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN7 ) ca > facand parte din vreun drum european. Nu gasesc alte referinte > intre DN7 > si drum european. Totusi, care este statutul acestuia? > Daca da, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este > gresit, > si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este corect? > Daca nu, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este > corect, > si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este gresit? > > DN73 (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN73 ) este marcat ca facand > parte > din E574 pe traseul Craiova - Pitesti - Brasov - Tg. Secuiesc - > Onesti - > Bacau. Se continua cu DN65 catre Craiova in SV Pitesti-ului. > DN65 apare si el ca "trunk". > > Ei bine, unele sunt marcate drept "trunk road" iar celelalte drept > "primary road". de aici si intrebarea mea. > > Pe de alta parte, daca E574 traverseaza orasul Pitesti (vine din > NE ca > DN73 si continua in SV ca DN65), presupun ca ar trebui sa existe > continuitate si prin oras. Sau exista alte conventii in acest sens? > > Multumesc. > > > ___ > Talk-ro mailing list > [hidden email] > <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node=5869527=0> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro > > > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the > discussion below: > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Conventii-si-drumuri-tp5869527.html > To start a new topic under Romania, email [hidden email] > > To unsubscribe from Romania, click here. > NAML > > <http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml> > > > > > > -- > Toate cele bune ! > ** > Gabriel Sebastian Moise > Adminis
[Talk-ro] Conventii si drumuri
Salut, Am o intrebare despre conventiile pentru Romania: autostrada = motorway Drum National (DNxxx) + Drum European (Exxx) = trunk ? ( sau primary road? ) Drum National (DNxxx) = primary road? Drum Judetean (DJxxx) = secondary road? Drum Comunal (DCxxx) = tertiary road? Conform http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence intuitia mea ar fi corecta, si unele drumuri in si/sau din Pitesti ar fi marcate gresit. Ma uitam la urmatoarea intersectie din Pitesti: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/44.8687/24.8845 DN7 cu DN73. Fiind vorba de ambele drumuri cu titulatura "DN", ma intrebam de ce apar cu culori diferite. La fel si aici: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.8908/24.8232 DN7 nu apare ( cel putin in Wiki https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN7 ) ca facand parte din vreun drum european. Nu gasesc alte referinte intre DN7 si drum european. Totusi, care este statutul acestuia? Daca da, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este gresit, si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este corect? Daca nu, atunci segmentul care intra in Pitesti dinspre SE este corect, si segmentul care iese in N (zona Bascov) este gresit? DN73 (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/DN73 ) este marcat ca facand parte din E574 pe traseul Craiova - Pitesti - Brasov - Tg. Secuiesc - Onesti - Bacau. Se continua cu DN65 catre Craiova in SV Pitesti-ului. DN65 apare si el ca "trunk". Ei bine, unele sunt marcate drept "trunk road" iar celelalte drept "primary road". de aici si intrebarea mea. Pe de alta parte, daca E574 traverseaza orasul Pitesti (vine din NE ca DN73 si continua in SV ca DN65), presupun ca ar trebui sa existe continuitate si prin oras. Sau exista alte conventii in acest sens? Multumesc. ___ Talk-ro mailing list Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro
Re: [Talk-ro] [geo-spatial] Primaria Cluj va folosi tool-uri Open Source pentru sistemul lor GIS - Cu ajutorul nostru
Salut, Se poate rezolva mai simplu: - instalezi Postgres/PostGIS si prima oara faci import la datele pe Romania la fisierul OSM - apoi cu un script simplu in fiecare noape faci update automat la baza de date din PostGIS direct de la serverul OSM. Nu mai trebuie copie locala la serverul OSM. - editarea/adaugarea de date o faci direct pe serverul mare OSM, fara sa te mai stresezi. Si gata ai date pentru QGIS, fara sa pierzi atribute la exportul in SHP, plus ca poti folosi datele din PostGIS la alte chestii: rutare, geocoding, reverse geocoding si alte mii de chestii de care are nevoie primaria. Mai simplu nu vad cum ar putea fi. Numai bine si bafta la implementare. Sorin. On 26/02/2015, Badita Florin baditaflo...@gmail.com [geo-spatial] geo-spat...@yahoogroups.com wrote: De vreo 6 luni sunt in discuții cu primaria Cluj-Napoca pentru a le implementa un sistem de cadastru eficient si util Astazi am fost si am prezentat directoarei de la Urbanism si de la IT cum functioneaza Qgis, avantajele folosiri unui sistem GIS decat autocad ( relatii intre obiecte, etc ) Acest articol explica putin ce vreau sa fac. www.ziardecluj.ro/un-tanar-vine-cu-o-propunere-inovatoare-pentru-reducerea-cheltuielilor-primariei-cluj-napoca Un articol mai tehnic este aici https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I8rNt52_VwHkj54x7Z4ebYEMOZtmbJO_9HvXIgpisF4/edit?usp=sharing Acum trebuie sa vin cu o propunere tehnica. Eu ce as vrea este momentam imposibil, deci trebuie gasita o solutie. Eu am propus ca sa facem o instanta a serverului OSM locala, iar primaria sa adauge datele in JOSM, fiind cel mai user friendly editor Iar pentru vizualizarea datelor, analiza de date, etc sa fie folosit QGIS Idee este ca momentan de fiecare data cand vrei sa vezi datele, trebuie sa descarci fisierul OSM,sa il convertesti, etc. Ma gandesc ca se poate face o implementare gen geofabrik care sa ruleze pe serverul lor o data la 6 ore, care salveaza SHP-uri cu diverse layer-ere. Ca si baza de date, ma gandesc cumva la un PostGis, pentru ca este nevoie de o solutie tehnica, unde sa fie nevoie de o parola, etc. Asta este doar pe scurt, lansez aici provocarea, fiindcă consider un pas foarte bun. Prin acesta colaborare o sa obtinem mai multe seturi de date de la primarie si o sa fie un super bun prim pas spre deschiderea datelor altor primarii, care vor putea sa intelegeaga mai bine ce inseamna tool-uri open source ᐧ ___ Talk-ro mailing list Talk-ro@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ro
Re: [OSM-talk] Slim mode in osm2pgsql and out of memory error
Stephan Knauss osm at stephans-server.de writes: A while ago I did import the planet on my windows machine (i7 920, 12G). I had used -C 3800. So you could give it a bit more ram. I have no exact data, but I think it did run for two or three days. Thank you Stephan! We will give this a try. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Slim mode in osm2pgsql and out of memory error
Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog at gmail.com writes: On 8 June 2011 17:11, Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog at gmail.com wrote: Actually, it looks like it's breaking on the pending_ways query. It's possible there's a lot of those, perhaps it's just running out of memory there. The code was designed that pending would only be for changes, and I wouldn't have expected that code to be used for an initial import. but I haven't look at the code recently so maybe that changed? If it is the intention that this code is used for initial imports it really needs to be changed to use cursors. Actually, it occurred to me that the system is optimised to the case where the file contains nodes, then ways, then relations. What you're seeing could be caused by the file having the ways first, then the nodes. Can you examine the file to see how it looks? Have a nice day, Hi, We're having a problem importing planet file into our PostGIS database. The import ran for a few days and then terminated with an out of memory error (full details below). After much googling and trying to fix things ourselves, we've finally admitted defeat and need to ask for some help! Are we trying to do the impossible by importing the whole planet with just 12Gb of RAM? Is there some trickery we can use to do the import on this machine, or maybe another method we can use for the import? Thanks in advance for any advice, Andrei Doug MARSS Full details of our setup below: OpenStreetMap importing planet issue task: Importing planet.osm.bz2 file into a PostgreSQL 8.4 + PostGis database. hardware used: Intel Xeon CPU I7(2.67Ghz), with 12GB of RAM process used (from weait.com blog - build your own OSM server (http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server)): 1. downloaded planet file (17GB) 2. prepared the postGIS database - installed postGIS and postGIS extensions for PostreSQL sudo apt-get install postgresql-8.4-postgis postgresql-contrib-8.4 sudo apt-get install postgresql-server-dev-8.4 sudo apt-get install build-essential libxml2-dev libtool sudo apt-get install libgeos-dev libpq-dev libbz2-dev proj 3. installed osm2pgsql (latest version (0.70.5)) from the SVN repository cd ~/bin svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/export/osm2pgsql/ cd osm2pgsql ./autogen.sh ./configure make 4. configured the PostGIS database shared_buffers = 128MB # 16384 for 8.1 and earlier checkpoint_segments = 20 maintenance_work_mem = 256MB # 256000 for 8.1 and earlier autovacuum = off 5. edited kesrnel parameter shmmax to increase maximum size of shared memory. sudo sysctl -w kernel.shmmax=268435456 sudo sysctl -p /etc/sysctl.conf 6. restarted postgres to enable the changes sudo /etc/init.d/postgresql-8.4 restart 7. created a database sudo -u postgres -i createuser username # answer yes for superuser createdb -E UTF8 -O username gis_planet createlang plpgsql gis exit 8. have set up PostGIS on the postresql database. psql -f /usr/share/postgresql/8.4/contrib/postgis-1.5/postgis.sql -d gis 9. have set the tables owners to the same user-name as mapnik will use to generate tiles echo ALTER TABLE geometry_columns OWNER TO username; ALTER TABLE spatial_ref_sys OWNER TO username; | psql -d gis 10. have set the Spatial Reference Identifier (SRID) on the new database. psql -f ~/bin/osm2pgsql/900913.sql -d gis 11. loaded planet into the database with osm2pgsql ./osm2pgsql -S default.style --slim -d gis -C 2048 ~/planet/planet.osm.bz2 error encountered: Node stats: total(1137985868), max(1350873143) Way stats: total(100214404), max(120480121) Relation stats: total(1037036), max(1652480) Going over pending ways OpenStreetMap importing planet issue task: Importing planet.osm.bz2 file into a PostgreSQL 8.4 + PostGis database. hardware used: Intel Xeon CPU I7(2.67Ghz), with 12GB of RAM process used (from weait.com blog - build your own OSM server (http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server)): 1. downloaded planet file (17GB) 2. prepared the postGIS database - installed postGIS and postGIS extensions for PostreSQL sudo apt-get install postgresql-8.4-postgis postgresql-contrib-8.4 sudo apt-get install postgresql-server-dev-8.4 sudo apt-get install build-essential libxml2-dev libtool sudo apt-get install libgeos-dev libpq-dev libbz2-dev proj 3. installed osm2pgsql (latest version (0.70.5)) from the SVN repository cd ~/bin svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/export/osm2pgsql/ cd osm2pgsql ./autogen.sh ./configure make 4. configured the PostGIS database shared_buffers = 128MB # 16384 for 8.1 and earlier checkpoint_segments = 20 maintenance_work_mem = 256MB # 256000 for 8.1 and earlier autovacuum = off 5. edited kesrnel parameter shmmax to increase maximum size of shared memory. sudo sysctl -w kernel.shmmax=268435456 sudo sysctl -p /etc/sysctl.conf 6. restarted postgres to enable the changes sudo /etc/init.d/postgresql-8.4 restart 7
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, without them being able to complain. So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without having to ask permission to do so? Thanks Andrei PS: was that more specific than my previous message? 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was just 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how hard I searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies that operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much of them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching their name + if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have found something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were available on the internet (even by some local people that would have put these timetables on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed : plan, and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database right. The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and the necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their lines isn't available at all on the internet, then without
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, without them being able to complain. So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without having to ask permission to do so? Thanks Andrei PS: was that more specific than my previous message? 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies, I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city
[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was just 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how hard I searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies that operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much of them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching their name + if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have found something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were available on the internet (even by some local people that would have put these timetables on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed : plan, and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database right. The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and the necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their lines isn't available at all on the internet, then without the authorization you could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract anything from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; and unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, are free to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I think, based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this problem yet.) So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any permission, to put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the osm (or transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number (amount) of their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if possible, the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in order to decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a search related to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its transport network's radius of operation, how far it can reach, more or less. Also, you could simply classify transit agencies in different categories: urban, interurban, regional, national, if it happens that average line length is still too much data to be free of use. And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page without asking permission to the site's owner? I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at least be * something* you could systematicly say about all transit agencies, wether they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any strong dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' adress is still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then find another relevant set of coordinates. At least something! And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? Isn't it using a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the owner of the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems to have the authorization to display almost anything about a company when you search for it - on google, but still... Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like that on the not asking the authorization thing: I only believe that it could make the gathering of at least *some* data...much much faster, and the coverage of the transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be really great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And besides, it would need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with every single transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially if they never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any reason they may have... Good night Andrei ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Ok, finally someone that really knows the case! so. First, if it is like that, then a proper authorization to use the timetables and routes, one by one, granted by veolia, keolis and transdev would do for a great amount of pt companies in france. Correct? I happen to have contacted veolia's director of developpement and innovation, who, verbally, i know, told me that no o'e would ever oppose me, at least in veolia, for taking these timetables, one by one, from all subsidiary transporters' sites. The same for routes. If i cannot trust this kind of saying...then, who can i trust? For more technical details, i will send you another email, as i'm still better in french than in english, especially for such technical language... but thank you for someone from french pt answering, at last! Le lundi 6 décembre 2010, Jacques Lys jacq...@famille-lys.com a écrit : Hello, I'm afraid you're wrong : Transit data are generally not freely available in France.You should know that legally, PT are the responsibility of local authorities. In fact these authorities entrust the operation of PT networks to companies which are often subsidiaries of three major groups (Keolis, Transdev and Veolia ... soon 2 because Transdev and Veolia are expected to merge!) through Delegations de Service Public (Delegations of Public Service) concluded for a fixed period (often 10 years). In fact, PT data are most often seen by agencies as being critical data they have to protect while submitting tender for Delegation de Service Public. Contrary to what you seem to believe, nobody enjoys 'nice governmental jobs' in French PT (almost all agencies are under common law...) and it's not by simple jealousy that employees wanting to protect their jobs refuse to submit data! Fortunately, for some time, the trend seems to be in setting PT data free : local authorities are more and more seeing themselves as the PT data owners and some of them are planning to make those data freely available to the public. That is what comes just to be done in Rennes (Brittany), where the Communauté d'Agglomération Rennes-Métropole recently proposed data in GTFS format (http://www.nosdonnees.fr/package/donnees-transport-rennes-metropole). The times they are a-Changin', even in France ! Cordialement. Jacques LysOpenStreetMap Contributor IT Manager in a French Transit Agency ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Good evening, i admit it, I know almost nothing about law. I focused on database, intellectual property law. These texts are quite small. I know my interpretation has no value, which is why I just spent 1h and a half talking to yet another lawyer. And what he told me was this: in one sentence, I am om the cutting edge of law. Which means, he cannot say for certain, wether someone attacking me on this, would win or not. But according to him, if I could go to each bus stop, take a picture of the timetables on the stop, and then, extract the information to incorporate it in my database, while keeping the photo as a proof that I did not use any electronic (internet) means to access easily a work that took time to gather, then I should be on my right, as I really spent time and effort to gather again the same information. Concerning my former assesment, about small databases, I admit I was not clear enough: First, let us consider the case, of a unique, all alone transport company, not owned by any big group, and that would operate 10 lines (say). The *creation* of each timetable, I mean the choice of the times and frequencies, is a real work: for this, the company spends time. Nonetheless, a timetable, as a production of spirit being heavily constrained by a definite industrial objective (functionment of their lines), it does not bear a mark of its author's personnality, and as such, is not protected by pure copyright (droit d'auteur), as would be a book or poem. Moreover, this data is not secret, as it is provided to the public. Which means, every one has the right to download ONE timetable alone, and put it on its site. Then, the question is only about the *gathering* of existing timetables together, so as to make a database. And this small company, has only ten lines, which means the database, as a structure containing data that is not individually copyrightable (one timetable is freely downloadable, as I said earlier), would only be a structure *containing 10 pdf files*. As such, the gathering of 10 pdf files, may (I know, I still have to prove it) be a work, that needed few enough investment, so as not to be considered to be protected by pure *database copyright*. In this way, it is *possible* that someone might have the right to download the entire set of timetables of one single, small company. Now, if you consider the real world, there are big transport agencies, like transdev, who own 100% of several smaller agencies, which are the real operators of the local transports. These small agencies, have produced timetables, that you can access either directly on a bus stop, either on their web site. On the other hand, obviously, the big corporation (transdev, or veolia, or anything else), does have, on its side, a big database that gathers all timetables of its filials. But if, by chance, they created this database starting from data provided to them by the filials (and not the opposite, transdev creating the database and then give the different timetables to its filials), then the source of their database are the filials. Which means that, if I go to every flial and take the timetables that concern only their lines, and from their, small site, then I fall back to the case mentioned above, where it would be just as if I took these timetables from a small, standalone company. As transdev - or any other big company holding these small operators - would have made its database from the same sources as me, we would only have the same sources, one would not be copying the other. So wether their database exist or not, is none of my concern, then. I really recreated it from small enough sources. I fractionned the imports directly to the sources of the data. Is more clear this way? I know I still have to check, and re-check, and triple check, and ultimately I think I will have to take the risk. As I saw, many sites emerged from openstreetmap data. What I would like to do, is not to bind openstreetmap with my risks. I would make my own site, only use data from openstreetmap underneath my transit data, to support it, and say clearly, if necessary, that my database recreating activities have nothing to do with openstreetmap, so the project would be safe. Is that possible? And about the ask a lawyer phrase, this is what I am doing, every single day between monday and friday, since last week. I really want to know what I would be up to. So, ok, I know personnaly nothing of civil law, but still, I'm doing my best to learn. All what I said was only with that point of view. And I understand only experienced lawyers can fill the blanks in my elaborations about law, and tell me where I am wrong. But by saying all what I'm saying here, I am only trying to see if anyone else have had similar thoughts, and if anyone can help me. That's all... Regards Andrei 2010/12/6 Michał Borsuk michal.bor...@gmail.com Am 06.12.2010 15:26, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hello, Yes, in France it's even worse: the database producer may
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Thank you for your answer. Indeed, it is almost impossible to prove you indeed have the right to do anything, in the geographical data area. But to answer to your idea of even bus stops physical locations being copyrighted, we have the following story, that every lawyer in france takes back: *consider a single person, phoning to every number he can dial randomly. *if he manages to get names and adresses of answering people - which is utmost unlikely, but just suppose it *then he recreated the phone book from scratch, and no one will be able to sue him, if not for collection and keeping of personal data, which is not the case for our bus stops. Which means, wandering around in a city, and noting all bus stops, and noting what is written on them, could be considered rebuilding public data from scratch, and as such, not fall under database copyright. But Michał is right, I have to stop messing with this list, for purely legal questions. I will continue asking lawyers, etc... And about transiki, yes I know about them, I am on their mailing list. But neither transiki nor OSM would take the risk to do what I am trying to do here, finding ways to bypass database right, because it would be stupid to gamble such big projects on slippery legal questions. I, on the other side, will maybe be ready to take the risk, once I know more. And if this is to be the first juridic case about this *precise question*, then so be it. But at last, we will know for sure, then. And I am not going to throw myself with no warranty: I intend to prepare my weapons, for this fight. This is way I keep thinking standalone. But nonetheless, this will not keep me from contributing to transiki, of course. Transiki may be the proper, open-licensed version of Google transit, but my version will be the dirty and hopefully, fast-made, version. What I would like, is that random users, without even learning how to use Potlatch or JOSM, without having to know anything about legal terms, would just upload timetables and plans, and if I manage to do it, an internal utility on my site will try to interpretate the timetables and plans, to extract the needed data from them; and then the user will only have to correct what is wrong. Think of dailymotion processing a video you just updated. Wouldn't it be good? Of course, this supposes huge work I am very probably absolutely not aware of, but still, why not just go and try it? The point is, about asking companies, I know a company, that is so greedy to keep its data, that isn't even featured on itransports.fr, the site referencing more of 80% of French PT data. They simply won't listen to anyone. And I know this will not be the only company to do so. And I am not going to gather 100 mobs to go and sit there in front of their buildings for three days to at last obtain their ** paper. This is why I wanted so much to find a way to bypass these companies that block entire geographical sectors of PT maps. When you break a chain, the whole chain becomes useless. And if such companies break the chain of transportation, then my site will be useless. This is why I am craving so much for a legal way, even a little unstable, to bypass all of this. The fact is, as many people told me, sometimes they don't even know who holds the rights over this data! But thank you for all your answers. I will try to find someone that will answer these questions, on the legal-talk. I already been to legal-talk, asked, but got very few really detailed answers. I will try again, now. Greetings Andrei 2010/12/6 Michael von Glasow mich...@vonglasow.com On 12/06/2010 05:07 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote: Am 06.12.2010 15:26, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hello, Yes, in France it's even worse: the database producer may forbid any quantitatively or quantitatively substantial extraction from his database, by all means and in any form BUT you have this counterpart: when a database is made available to the public by the holder of the rights, then he cannot forbid [among other things] the extraction AND reuse of a quantitatively or qualitatively non substantial part of the database, by the person who has licit access to it. So after all us, the grumpy old men, were right. I only put this line here, to ask the question: what, if many different people, decide to all take one timetable, and then reuse it as they want, like for example, by publishing it in a centralized site? Then this is the wrong group. Ask a lawyer! Indeed talk-legal may be the more suitable list for such discussions. As for database copyright, I can tell you the situation here in Italy (and I would expect the situation to be somewhat similar throughout the European Union): Database copyright applies to databases in any form, even non-electronic (think printed telephone books), though I'm not completely sure about how non-trivial a database has to be in order to be copyrightable. In any case, the copyright extends to any substantial extraction
[OSM-legal-talk] Database right for public transport
Hello, first, to put things clear, I know of Transiki, I know of Google Transit obviously, I know of OSMand, and I know - a little - about database copyright in France. I already asked several lawyers about my questions, without it resulting in any clear answer. And no, what I intend to do will not be linked to OSM, I will create a separate dite on which OSM would only feature as the provider of purely geographical data. And also, this site I may make myself will not prevent me, on another end, to contribute to the more proper Transiki. But still, I have this dirty idea, that I would like to try. My question is not about trying to naively copy everything, it is more about trying to find a way so that I more recreate than copy things. My question is this: Starting which point, the whole set of timetables of a single, standalone transit agency, would constitute a protectable database according to French Law, in the way that it needed substantial efforts, either materialy, financially or in terms of personel, to be created? By created, I also intend that the only work directly tight to the creation of a database, is the gathering of information, not its creation (i will come back to that point later on). On another end, I know transit agencies are hardly on their own in the real world, but the thinking behind this is that, if, and only if, I can copy or reproduce, in any way, including taking pictures of bus stops, the whole set of timetables a *small* transit agency, then wether these timetables were gathered *afterwards*(after their creation by the small transit agency, and put onto their small site) into a bigger database, by either the big company owning the small one, or by the public authority compiling timetables of all the transit agencies of whom it has the charge, is none of my concern: in this case, we would only be gathering data *from the same source*. Of course, if it happens that the transit agencies only propose unfinished timetables either to the public authority or to their parent company, and that it is the authority/parent company that finishes all timetables of many small agencies, then these timetables would directly be part of their personal database, and then, taking these timetables, by any mean, would probably be copying their database. The point behind that is that there may be a way, along which it would not be easy for transport agencies to ever prove that a site indeed made unauthorized copy of a *protected *database. If a set of 10 timetables is possible to copy, then when you copy timetables from a single transit agency site, you would only copy THEIR small database, and if the investment they made into gathering timetable information - I insist on the term *gathering, *not *creating* - then the copy of all their timetables would not be forbidden; and if one would copy like that all timetables from all the small transit agencies he can, and if by doing this he recreates the timetable database of some big transport authority or parent company, then who cares, as he only recreated the database from the same source as did this big entity. This could maybe be a way to do a quick-and-dirty transit map, and see if anyone manages to prove that there was something illegal in it. I know this kind of project may sound quite risky, which is why I will do everything possible to cut all responsibility off Openstreetmap, which I think is not difficult as Openstreetmap staff would have nothing to do with my future standalone site, and also, I am not going into that without preparing the terrain, which is why I am right now consulting so many lawyers to get a better picture of what is ahead me, and readying my strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? Thanks Andrei ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database right for public transport
Hi, I am sorry, you are right, based on what I said, this conversation hardly concerns osm directly. I asked before I did not know where to start getting real help about this. And so, thank you for your answer. It finally got into the heart of the subject. I never thought of that point, that transport companies do not collect the timetable database, as it is already there. And this was, in fact, almost my argument in what I said, except that I did not realize the full extent of the separation between the creation and the gathering of the timetables. And you are right too, in the fact that timetables are close to be obvious copyrightable things, in that they are original creations of the mind, that really needed thinking, and time. About the distinction between sui generis and copyright, I jumped some times between the two groups of articles you cite here, I just did not understand until now that sui generis was exactly what I called database copyright, as opposed to droits d'auteur, for what you call - and actually is -database copyright. In other words, I knew the distinction but did not know how to say it in english. What is weird, though, is that really every lawyer I asked in France, confirmed me there would not be any copyright on a single timetable, and the same for the collection of different timetables. They were always afraid of the interpretation of the database law, precisely because there had been no cases about it yet. And about the formal instruction, the point is I am a student, and I don't know if with the 500€ a year max I could spend on such unpredicted stuff, I would be sure to get my final advice...And when I asked today to one of the lawyers I called, he told me that on such a complex case, it would very probably cost me a lot...I really do not know where I will be able to find out all this money for that...and when I asked other cabinets, without even forwarding me to any lawyer they told me straight that this would be really expensive...I am no business man, unfortunately! Especially if I wanted, like at the beginning, to open this site I wanted to create, to as much countries as possible...this is just impossible to do without a huge proper funding...and still, it will be no use to osm and transiki because, even with all the advice that could be gathered, on the ways to bypass what can be bypassed, as you said it would probably be still too risky to use anything without proper authorization... Maybe then I will just turn to Transiki, and think of a way to get all these damn authorizations fast...We may still have a point in the fact that travel agencies in France always have this dichotomy between their internal database, and you recreating it with one-by-one timetables...Upon what you said, they still have to authorize it (which, in my experience, they all even do not know), but they will be much eager to do so, based on everything I heard. So developping a tool to assist timetable data transfer from pdf files to the transiki database, would still be a good thing I could start thinking of... Anyway, thank you for this very clever answer, it made me advance in this. Good night Andrei 2010/12/6 Francis Davey fjm...@gmail.com On 6 December 2010 20:57, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, [snip] strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? I'm not sure that this is really on topic for this list since it doesn't impact legally on open street map (or it shouldn't). Its also the kind of thing you should talk to a lawyer, preferably a French lawyer, about rather than asking for advice on list, since you may get more reliable advice that way. Also - this is true in this country but may not be true in France - lawyers prefer to be formally instructed when giving advice of this specificity in case the advice is acted upon and then the person they advised gets into difficulty. The formal instructions are a form of protection for the lawyer. Having said that you might want to think carefully about the difference between database copyright (in L112-3 of the intellectual property code) and the sui generis database right (in L341-1). There's a reasonable argument, based on the Fixtures Marketing cases (see http://curia.europa.eu/fr/actu/communiques/cp04/aff/cp040089fr.pdf) that a transport company does not acquire a database right in its own timetable data because it does not expend resources collecting it (in French the word is la constitution rather than collection). It makes the timetable itself so does not need to collect it. As the creator it has no database right (an odd but important result). I think that is the thrust of your argument. But, a transport company might be able to claim a database copyright in its timetable on the basis that it is an intellectual creation. The idea of the database directive was that a common standard would be applied across all EU states for the threshold test for database copyright
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Le dimanche 5 décembre 2010, Michał Borsuk michal.bor...@gmail.com a écrit : On 5 December 2010 08:07, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, But, at least in french law, as far as the opinions of the lawyers I consulted about this question were correct, any individual or company has the right, to download one by one the timetables - and transportation plans! - of any transport company, to extract the data (timetables: only the data itself, and plans: only the path of the buses, of course, but that's all that is needed!) from its support and presentation, and to incorporate it in any database we want, without asking any permission. If we do it one by one: We have to recreate the database so as not to violate any right! I would double-check this. Normally (i.e. in many countries with legal systems similar to that of France) one is allowed to download non-sequentially (one-by-one, but not in a manner suggesting copying the entire dataset), but not allowed to recreate the database. I know, of course I realized it sounded weird, that is why I added as much precision as i could when having these lawyears (2, both of them specialized in french- and, if it wasn't for the transposition of the rights, I would say european- intellectual property), i said you're sure you know what i'm trying to do with this, i want, ultimately, to recreate their database!, but as they told me, it's pretty much as if someone was calling one by one all the phone numbers he could call, and then register this information in a database : he would recreate a substantial part of the phone book, but he would do it himself. The point is, a database is not protected by the only fact that it exists: his owner has to prove that he took the initiative, and the risk, to collect, to rearrange and to present this database. Which means, a small company, with only a limited number of timetables, could fail to prove that the investment to produce its timetables, was really bug enough to justify protection. Beyond the value of the information, if it only took one afternoon to one employee, to make these timetables, then - i guess - it would fail to get the protection of the database law. To that extent, ut would be like movie timetables in the cinemas: they are too few data to get protection. And wether, after collecting all this data, you happen to recreate someone's database - for exemple allocine's database - is none of anyone's concern : you collected the data from separate sources, which all, one by one, did not spend enougj investment to get protection of their data: it has no author rights because the data itself, being constrained by a direct utilitary goal, has no originality in itself, to the extent that it does not reflect any part of the personnality of its author; and it is no personal data, as would be phone numbers or adresses. So the only protection possible is purely the one concerning database producers, as described above. What i just told you before, is precisely the point that i'm checking at the moment: how much sand do you need to start calling its whole, a stack; how big does a set of timetables have to be, what complexity should it reach, to earn the needed subsequent effort, risk, AND investment on the behalf of the transporter. But, as you know it, lawyears do not iperate on weekends, so i will have to wait tomorrow to find out, as i didn't find yet any previous judgements involving, in a really unclear way, this kind of question: as far as I know, in France, everytime there has been a lawsuit about database right, the quality of the database representing a subsequent investment, was hardly the main question: everytime, it was almost obvious. It had never been treated yet, such cases where someone would be collecting together a lot of quasi-databases... Because I have indeed tried to ask permissions from the public transport operators to use their timetables and plans. But I must be bad at asking, I share your experience. I tried asking Mobiliteit in Luxembourg, they never answered. My local administrative body was so confused about my question that I first used their data, and then sent them a paper to sign. I would have never got the permission to use the data, partially out of the German national fear of anything new. And I also suspect that there is simple jealousy. People administering public transport usually have nice governmental jobs, and YOU come here and demand something. You may be uncovering the fact that what could be done by one freak is now being done by 5 individuals, all with the wrong tools. That's what is weird: as i happen to come from a school of engineers in France, i contacted a former student who has entered veolia transport, up to a high rank, to have one of my two forced answers, and if i could have been able to formalize what he told me in a contract, i would have my authorisation! I think (at least for France, i can't say about
[Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
... So, i've said what I knew, if anyone still wants to help me, I would really been grateful, because I'm tired of fighting this fight alone. Good...very end of night... Andrei ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
