Re: [Talk-us] Timezones in USA?

[Luis Villa]

And a timely (no pun intended) reminder that state lines can be fluid too:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/altered-state-border-redraw-leaves-16-in-different-carolina/2016/05/29/9b2d1908-25ae-11e6-8329-6104954928d2_story.html

On Mon, May 30, 2016, 9:57 AM John F. Eldredge  wrote:

> Note that "usually state lines" isn't the same thing as "always state
> lines".  The Central Time Zone/Eastern Time Zone boundary runs through the
> middle of both Tennessee and Kentucky, and the lines aren't straight.  They
> zig-zag according to which time zone the local politicians wanted.
>
>
> On 05/27/2016 07:49 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
>
> Frederik Ramm   writes:
>
>
> I have deleted a couple of such time zone polygons account of not being
> verifiable on the ground.
>
> I don't know how time zones are defined "at the source" but it is very
> unlikely that someone puts up signs. I guess there'll be some kind of
> definition that can be kept *outside* of OSM, and can be translated to
> polygons with the help of OSM if desired.
>
>
> This strict on-the-ground notion is overblown.  The real issue in
> verifiability is if an ordinary mapper can check the data.  Everyone
> around me knows that timezone they are in.  I'm sure everyone near a
> boundary knows where it is.  The rules are easily accessible in
> libraries, and they refer to boundaries that are signed (in the US,
> usually state lines).  You can look at clocks displayed in public.
>
> The real issue is where to draw the line about specialized details that
> don't belong on map.  In the case of time zones, they are something that
> has traditionally been represented on maps for a long time, in a base
> map kind of way, vs a thematic data shown on a base map kind of way.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:09 PM, Jake  wrote:
> I've been mapping a small section of National Forest, which straddles two
> counties; Boone and Callaway.
>
> On every map I can find - Boone Countys GIS dept., census.gov, US Forest
> Service - the county border strictly follows a river, Cedar Creek. However,
> on OSM, the boundary is shaped exactly like the river, but is shifted about
> a quarter mile north-east of it. Here's a small section to show what I mean:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.8117/-92.1427
>
> Now, I'm pretty sure this is a mistake - rivers move, but they don't shift
> in perfectly synchronized 40-mile segments like this.

Probably a mistake, but not one done in OSM. Eric suggested a
way-dragging accident may have happened but looking at the node
histories, it looks like this is the original location of these nodes
from when Ian imported them from TIGER boundaries.

>
> I'd like to find out how that boundary is actually legally defined, but my
> google-fu is not strong enough, it seems.
>
> US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
> for Missouri county boundaries?

I think Kevin's comments about the NY counties may be more common than
you think. I believe the county border between my county and the one
to the east was disputed for a long time and may actually still be a
sore spot between them. It was originally defined as the course of the
Big Blue River. Since then, the river flooded and changed its course
dramatically. The area of land between the two river courses contains
a Walmart Supercenter that both counties want tax dollars from :)

But the official boundary as it stands follows the old course of the
river, even in the lake that is now behind a dam they built to prevent
future floods.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Jacob Hansson]

Thanks for all your feedback! I got a reply from the local GIS dept. who
said the river is the official boundary. I don't think the whole county is
shifted, because the southern border lines up correctly with the Missouri
river.

I'll cross-reference it with the maps the GIS dept sent me and correct the
border accordingly.

/j

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 11:10 AM Bill Ricker  wrote:

>
> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Eric Ladner 
> wrote:
>
>> Looks like the whole middle section got dragged as a bad edit or
>> something.
>
>
> ​Or a bad import coordinate conversion from state or other local plane
> coordinates​ if it affects the entire Co. / State.
>
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Bill Ricker]

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Eric Ladner  wrote:

> Looks like the whole middle section got dragged as a bad edit or something.


​Or a bad import coordinate conversion from state or other local plane
coordinates​ if it affects the entire Co. / State.

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Kevin Kenny]

I hope for your sake that county lines in Missouri are better defined
than they are in upstate New York. There are some county lines in the
Adirondacks that are still shown as 'indefinite' on the state maps
because they've never been formally surveyed and monumented. In the
places where the land is all State Forest and timber tracts belonging
to Finch-Pruyn and International Paper, nobody much cares where the
line is.

When the Adirondack Survey tried to find the SE corner of Franklin
County, there was a 900 foot error of closure, giving rise to the bent
corner at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/44.1352/-74.0731. The
surveyor who struck the modern line in the 1870's (reporting his 900
foot error of closure) found two previous surveys of the 18th century
land grand line that became the county boundary - about 4500 feet
apart! (And neither of the two previous surveys actually succeeded in
striking and monumenting the entire line.)

Since most of the land is uninhabited, and what isn't forbidding
mountains is sucking swamp, it's just never been worth anyone's time,
expense and danger to establish formal borders. When I'm working on
cadastral data from that part of the world, I tend just to ignore
topological inconsistencies unless they're more than a few hundred
feet or actually located within a village.

I still do want to track down the problem at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/44.2421/-73.9544 - that overlap
between John Brown Farm and the state forest can't be right. I just
haven't had the bandwidth to pursue it.

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[Talk-us] Fixing imports/Getting rid of sub_sea=stream

[Richard]

Hi,

looking at the rather misguiding sub_sea=stream k/v combination,
apparently it originates from two imports:
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/5512983
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/5554106

Most (all but two apparently) of those are creeks and rivers in a corner
of British Columbia but actually missing any waterway key so the data
is of little in the database as is.
Contacting the authors did not yield any response yet.. does
anyone recall any details?

So far observed

* 4770 of sub_sea=stream
* out of those 84 resp 66 tagged with waterway=river|stream
* 460 matching name~river but without waterway=*  - here it seems waterway=river
  could be added without any risk of damage
* 362 matching name~creek but without waterway=* - same as previous
* 3777 without further information but as far visually checked more
  or less real waterways.

Regards,
Richard

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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Richard Welty]

On 5/31/16 10:32 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
> Jake  writes:
>
>> US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
>> for Missouri county boundaries?
> I don't, but I would call the state GIS or highway departments and ask.
> It is likely that the country boundaries are defined in state statute
> and that it is readily available once you find the magic words to locate
> it.  The 2nd link below has a shapefile  (license unclear to me).
>
the boundaries in current TIGER are pretty good for the most part, i believe
the census bureau now sources this data from the local GIS departments
where possible

richard

-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search




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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Eric Ladner]

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 8:48 AM Jake  wrote:

> ...
> On every map I can find - Boone Countys GIS dept., census.gov, US Forest
> Service - the county border strictly follows a river, Cedar Creek. However,
> on OSM, the boundary is shaped exactly like the river, but is shifted about
> a quarter mile north-east of it. Here's a small section to show what I mean:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.8117/-92.1427
>
> Now, I'm pretty sure this is a mistake - rivers move, but they don't shift
> in perfectly synchronized 40-mile segments like this.
>

Looks like the whole middle section got dragged as a bad edit or
something.  Data overlaid on USGS maps matches the surrounding area pretty
well, including the river.

If it were me, I'd just treat it as an error and correct it.  My guess is
you'll find that the GIS boundaries line up with the river (as does the
USGS map).

My 0.02.  Take it or leave it.

Eric
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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Greg Troxel]

Jake  writes:

> US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
> for Missouri county boundaries?

I don't, but I would call the state GIS or highway departments and ask.
It is likely that the country boundaries are defined in state statute
and that it is readily available once you find the magic words to locate
it.  The 2nd link below has a shapefile  (license unclear to me).


http://oa.mo.gov/information-technology-itsd/it-governance/office-geospatial-information
https://data.mo.gov/Demographics/Missouri-County-Boundaries-Map/n34b-fwqr

http://msdis.missouri.edu/

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G810


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[Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Jake]

I've been mapping a small section of National Forest, which straddles two
counties; Boone and Callaway.

On every map I can find - Boone Countys GIS dept., census.gov, US Forest
Service - the county border strictly follows a river, Cedar Creek. However,
on OSM, the boundary is shaped exactly like the river, but is shifted about
a quarter mile north-east of it. Here's a small section to show what I mean:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.8117/-92.1427

Now, I'm pretty sure this is a mistake - rivers move, but they don't shift
in perfectly synchronized 40-mile segments like this.

I'd like to find out how that boundary is actually legally defined, but my
google-fu is not strong enough, it seems.

US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
for Missouri county boundaries?

Best,
Jacob
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