[Talk-us] data freshness boogie man (was: request for review of plan for scripted edit)

[Jmapb]

On 8/8/2019 5:52 PM, Bryce Jasmer wrote:


I’m really opposed to this idea of scaring people away from editing
objects with the “data freshness” boogie man argument. If someone
really cares about freshness, the entire history of an object is
available to you.


That's true for any single object. But what if you want to query for
stale data in a given area, in preparation for a survey? Accessing each
object's history makes the process exponentially more complicated. If
you can mange to do that, then you could try to skip edits by known bot
accounts... but there are always more. You can try to filter out
changesets with bot=yes, which well-behaved bots will set. But lots of
people make these wide-ranging edits semi-manually using JOSM or Level0.

I understand that this particular objection to armchair data cleanup is
far from universal. But the compulsive reformatting of incorrect data
makes me roll my eyes a bit. I find it useless bordering on ridiculous
when I see a mapped restaurant that's been gone for years, but someone's
added branding tags, someone's prefixed the website with http://,
someone's reformatted the phone number, someone's fixed the opening
hours, someone's corrected the cuisine... but nobody has bothered to see
if the place actually still exists.

I think my prejudice stems from reading this cautionary tale on the wiki
in my OSM infancy:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/What%27s_the_problem_with_mechanical_edits%3F
(I see now that this was originally written by Frederik Ramm, though I
had no idea who that was at the time.)

The bottom line, though, is that a well-planned, well-discussed, and
well-behaved bot is by far the *best* way to make these sorts of edits,
if someone feels they must be made. My preference would be to only touch
recently edited objects but that's by no means a dealbreaker.

Jason


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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Mike N]

On 8/8/2019 5:25 PM, Paul Norman via Talk-us wrote:
Given the low numbers of 7-digit numbers I recommend correcting them 
manually rather than writing code to do it.


  On this one I'm not sure how introducing an error-prone keyboarding 
exercise into the mix is an improvement over a programmatic solution. 
At least with the programmatic solution, a typo applies to all and is 
more easily spotted.


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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Bryce Jasmer]

I’m really opposed to this idea of scaring people away from editing objects
with the “data freshness” boogie man argument. If someone really cares
about freshness, the entire history of an object is available to you.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:57 PM Kevin Broderick 
wrote:

> I'm of mixed feelings on the apparent freshness, but as long as the
> guidelines are followed so changesets are of reasonable size and easily
> identified as scripted, I don't see much of an issue.
>
> While having an automated script make assumptions caused me to twitch a
> little, the reality is that a human is going to make the same assumption.
> If I see a seven-digit number on a sign and want to dial it, I'm going to
> assume that the area code is 207; if I'm across the state line in New
> Hampshire, I'm going to assume 603. If that assumption isn't correct, the
> source data is bad anyhow, and adding the implicit area code isn't making
> it substantially worse. Have you been able to discern how many seven-digit
> numbers are in the system?
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jmapb  wrote:
>
>> On 8/8/2019 1:28 PM, Alex Hennings wrote:
>> > Community,
>> >
>> > I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are
>> > outlined here:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic
>> >
>> > I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of
>> > that wiki page, or within this email list.
>>
>> Hi Alex!
>>
>> First, a possible typo: I think "Nodes, Ways and References" should be
>> "Nodes, Ways and Relations"?
>>
>> I'm a fan of the +1-xxx-xxx- format, since it's the only standard
>> format that's visually intuitive to North American users. I often switch
>> numbers to this format when I make updates to an existing POI.
>>
>> Personally, though, I've always felt a little uneasy about automated
>> updates like this because they give a false impression of the freshness
>> of the data. If it's been five years since any "real" updates to a POI,
>> I'd rather that the date of last update reflected that. It's hard to
>> gauge the community consensus on this issue, but IMO running this on
>> POIs that have been manually updated (ie not by a mass edit) in the last
>> 6 months would be fine.
>>
>> Regarding the single area code question... now that cell phones, VOIP,
>> and nationwide calling plans are ubiquitous, the idea that a certain
>> area code refers to a certain area is steadily eroding. I have started
>> to see a few businesses with out-of-state phone numbers on their
>> signs... but at this point it's still more likely that an out-of-state
>> area code is an error or SEO spam. I'd suggest that these would go into
>> your "Manually review or flag" category.
>>
>> Regardless, the idea that an area can have a single "traditional" area
>> code is still true. Personally I have no problem with prepending the
>> traditional area code onto 7-digit phone numbers. (I do it all the time
>> in manual mapping.)
>>
>> Finally, thanks for posting your tools... I see these are written in
>> CSharp, which I'm only tangentially familiar with. What sort of
>> environment would one need to build these?
>>
>> Thanks, Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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> k...@kevinbroderick.com
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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Paul Norman via Talk-us]

Given the low numbers of 7-digit numbers I recommend correcting them manually rather than writing code to do it.On Aug 8, 2019 2:02 PM, Alex Hennings  wrote:Fixed: references -> relations.Noted: "False impression of data freshness". I hadn't considered this and I would like more opinions.Regarding
 "single area-code Question" I think you're talking about 7 digit 
numbers, and my plan to optimistically appending an area code in cases 
like Maine where there is only one area code. I acknowledge that as the 
weakest of the assumptions but I thought of it as a safe guess and a net
 positive change. For context on why I feel confident, living in Maine 
where we only have one area code, locals will omit the area code 
because we don't need it when dialing locally.Regarding "how many seven-digit numbers" Good question! There are 6 in Maine, 163 in USA.(node    ['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']    (area:3600063512); // or 3609331155 for usa way    ['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']    (area:3600063512); relation    ['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']    (area:3600063512);); out count;The C# tools I'm building should work with any c# IDE. I use VisualStudio which is free, and available on iOS and Windows. I'm happy to help if you want to get them up and running.-Alex

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:58 PM Kevin Broderick  wrote:I'm of mixed feelings on the apparent freshness, but as long as the guidelines are followed so changesets are of reasonable size and easily identified as scripted, I don't see much of an issue.While having an automated script make assumptions caused me to twitch a little, the reality is that a human is going to make the same assumption. If I see a seven-digit number on a sign and want to dial it, I'm going to assume that the area code is 207; if I'm across the state line in New Hampshire, I'm going to assume 603. If that assumption isn't correct, the source data is bad anyhow, and adding the implicit area code isn't making it substantially worse. Have you been able to discern how many seven-digit numbers are in the system?On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jmapb  wrote:On 8/8/2019 1:28 PM, Alex Hennings wrote:
> Community,
>
> I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are
> outlined here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic
>
> I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of
> that wiki page, or within this email list.

Hi Alex!

First, a possible typo: I think "Nodes, Ways and References" should be
"Nodes, Ways and Relations"?

I'm a fan of the +1-xxx-xxx- format, since it's the only standard
format that's visually intuitive to North American users. I often switch
numbers to this format when I make updates to an existing POI.

Personally, though, I've always felt a little uneasy about automated
updates like this because they give a false impression of the freshness
of the data. If it's been five years since any "real" updates to a POI,
I'd rather that the date of last update reflected that. It's hard to
gauge the community consensus on this issue, but IMO running this on
POIs that have been manually updated (ie not by a mass edit) in the last
6 months would be fine.

Regarding the single area code question... now that cell phones, VOIP,
and nationwide calling plans are ubiquitous, the idea that a certain
area code refers to a certain area is steadily eroding. I have started
to see a few businesses with out-of-state phone numbers on their
signs... but at this point it's still more likely that an out-of-state
area code is an error or SEO spam. I'd suggest that these would go into
your "Manually review or flag" category.

Regardless, the idea that an area can have a single "traditional" area
code is still true. Personally I have no problem with prepending the
traditional area code onto 7-digit phone numbers. (I do it all the time
in manual mapping.)

Finally, thanks for posting your tools... I see these are written in
CSharp, which I'm only tangentially familiar with. What sort of
environment would one need to build these?

Thanks, Jason



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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Alex Hennings]

Fixed: references -> relations.

Noted: "False impression of data freshness". I hadn't considered this and I
would like more opinions.

Regarding "single area-code Question" I think you're talking about 7 digit
numbers, and my plan to optimistically appending an area code in cases like
Maine where there is only one area code. I acknowledge that as the weakest
of the assumptions but I thought of it as a safe guess and a net positive
change. For context on why I feel confident, living in Maine where we only
have one area code, locals will omit the area code because we don't need it
when dialing locally.

Regarding "how many seven-digit numbers" Good question! There are *6 in
Maine*, *163 in USA*.
(node
['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']
(area:3600063512); // or 3609331155 for usa
 way
['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']
(area:3600063512);
 relation
['phone'~'^([^0-9]*[0-9]){7}[^0-9]*$']
(area:3600063512););
 out count;

The C# tools I'm building should work with any c# IDE. I use VisualStudio
 which is free, and available on
iOS and Windows. I'm happy to help if you want to get them up and running.

-Alex

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:58 PM Kevin Broderick 
wrote:

> I'm of mixed feelings on the apparent freshness, but as long as the
> guidelines are followed so changesets are of reasonable size and easily
> identified as scripted, I don't see much of an issue.
>
> While having an automated script make assumptions caused me to twitch a
> little, the reality is that a human is going to make the same assumption.
> If I see a seven-digit number on a sign and want to dial it, I'm going to
> assume that the area code is 207; if I'm across the state line in New
> Hampshire, I'm going to assume 603. If that assumption isn't correct, the
> source data is bad anyhow, and adding the implicit area code isn't making
> it substantially worse. Have you been able to discern how many seven-digit
> numbers are in the system?
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jmapb  wrote:
>
>> On 8/8/2019 1:28 PM, Alex Hennings wrote:
>> > Community,
>> >
>> > I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are
>> > outlined here:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic
>> >
>> > I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of
>> > that wiki page, or within this email list.
>>
>> Hi Alex!
>>
>> First, a possible typo: I think "Nodes, Ways and References" should be
>> "Nodes, Ways and Relations"?
>>
>> I'm a fan of the +1-xxx-xxx- format, since it's the only standard
>> format that's visually intuitive to North American users. I often switch
>> numbers to this format when I make updates to an existing POI.
>>
>> Personally, though, I've always felt a little uneasy about automated
>> updates like this because they give a false impression of the freshness
>> of the data. If it's been five years since any "real" updates to a POI,
>> I'd rather that the date of last update reflected that. It's hard to
>> gauge the community consensus on this issue, but IMO running this on
>> POIs that have been manually updated (ie not by a mass edit) in the last
>> 6 months would be fine.
>>
>> Regarding the single area code question... now that cell phones, VOIP,
>> and nationwide calling plans are ubiquitous, the idea that a certain
>> area code refers to a certain area is steadily eroding. I have started
>> to see a few businesses with out-of-state phone numbers on their
>> signs... but at this point it's still more likely that an out-of-state
>> area code is an error or SEO spam. I'd suggest that these would go into
>> your "Manually review or flag" category.
>>
>> Regardless, the idea that an area can have a single "traditional" area
>> code is still true. Personally I have no problem with prepending the
>> traditional area code onto 7-digit phone numbers. (I do it all the time
>> in manual mapping.)
>>
>> Finally, thanks for posting your tools... I see these are written in
>> CSharp, which I'm only tangentially familiar with. What sort of
>> environment would one need to build these?
>>
>> Thanks, Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Broderick
> k...@kevinbroderick.com
> ___
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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Kevin Broderick]

I'm of mixed feelings on the apparent freshness, but as long as the
guidelines are followed so changesets are of reasonable size and easily
identified as scripted, I don't see much of an issue.

While having an automated script make assumptions caused me to twitch a
little, the reality is that a human is going to make the same assumption.
If I see a seven-digit number on a sign and want to dial it, I'm going to
assume that the area code is 207; if I'm across the state line in New
Hampshire, I'm going to assume 603. If that assumption isn't correct, the
source data is bad anyhow, and adding the implicit area code isn't making
it substantially worse. Have you been able to discern how many seven-digit
numbers are in the system?

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jmapb  wrote:

> On 8/8/2019 1:28 PM, Alex Hennings wrote:
> > Community,
> >
> > I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are
> > outlined here:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic
> >
> > I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of
> > that wiki page, or within this email list.
>
> Hi Alex!
>
> First, a possible typo: I think "Nodes, Ways and References" should be
> "Nodes, Ways and Relations"?
>
> I'm a fan of the +1-xxx-xxx- format, since it's the only standard
> format that's visually intuitive to North American users. I often switch
> numbers to this format when I make updates to an existing POI.
>
> Personally, though, I've always felt a little uneasy about automated
> updates like this because they give a false impression of the freshness
> of the data. If it's been five years since any "real" updates to a POI,
> I'd rather that the date of last update reflected that. It's hard to
> gauge the community consensus on this issue, but IMO running this on
> POIs that have been manually updated (ie not by a mass edit) in the last
> 6 months would be fine.
>
> Regarding the single area code question... now that cell phones, VOIP,
> and nationwide calling plans are ubiquitous, the idea that a certain
> area code refers to a certain area is steadily eroding. I have started
> to see a few businesses with out-of-state phone numbers on their
> signs... but at this point it's still more likely that an out-of-state
> area code is an error or SEO spam. I'd suggest that these would go into
> your "Manually review or flag" category.
>
> Regardless, the idea that an area can have a single "traditional" area
> code is still true. Personally I have no problem with prepending the
> traditional area code onto 7-digit phone numbers. (I do it all the time
> in manual mapping.)
>
> Finally, thanks for posting your tools... I see these are written in
> CSharp, which I'm only tangentially familiar with. What sort of
> environment would one need to build these?
>
> Thanks, Jason
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>


-- 
Kevin Broderick
k...@kevinbroderick.com
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Re: [Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Jmapb]

On 8/8/2019 1:28 PM, Alex Hennings wrote:

Community,

I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are
outlined here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic

I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of
that wiki page, or within this email list.


Hi Alex!

First, a possible typo: I think "Nodes, Ways and References" should be
"Nodes, Ways and Relations"?

I'm a fan of the +1-xxx-xxx- format, since it's the only standard
format that's visually intuitive to North American users. I often switch
numbers to this format when I make updates to an existing POI.

Personally, though, I've always felt a little uneasy about automated
updates like this because they give a false impression of the freshness
of the data. If it's been five years since any "real" updates to a POI,
I'd rather that the date of last update reflected that. It's hard to
gauge the community consensus on this issue, but IMO running this on
POIs that have been manually updated (ie not by a mass edit) in the last
6 months would be fine.

Regarding the single area code question... now that cell phones, VOIP,
and nationwide calling plans are ubiquitous, the idea that a certain
area code refers to a certain area is steadily eroding. I have started
to see a few businesses with out-of-state phone numbers on their
signs... but at this point it's still more likely that an out-of-state
area code is an error or SEO spam. I'd suggest that these would go into
your "Manually review or flag" category.

Regardless, the idea that an area can have a single "traditional" area
code is still true. Personally I have no problem with prepending the
traditional area code onto 7-digit phone numbers. (I do it all the time
in manual mapping.)

Finally, thanks for posting your tools... I see these are written in
CSharp, which I'm only tangentially familiar with. What sort of
environment would one need to build these?

Thanks, Jason



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[Talk-us] Request for review of plan for scripted edit

[Alex Hennings]

Community,

I'm planning a scripted change and would like feedback. Plans are outlined
here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/blackboxlogic

I'd appreciate feedback or questions in the 'Discussion' portion of that
wiki page, or within this email list.

Thanks,
-Alex
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[Talk-us] Meaning of terminal access

[Michael Patrick]

 > How are these tags being used?

Important for logistics. Indicates where certain classes of vehicles can
enter / exit the federally regulated interstate system onto designated
local routes. They are marked with trail blaze signs (
https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/traffic-operations/images/sign-ta.jpg
)
Similar to a 'Truck Route' sign (
https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/traffic-operations/images/sign-truck-route.gif
).

For one state's example, see
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH=35401.5
.
"(d) The Department of Transportation or local authorities may establish a
process whereby access to terminals or services may be applied for upon a
route not previously established as an access route. The denial of a
request for access to terminals and services shall be only on the basis of
safety and an engineering analysis of the proposed access route. ...For
purposes of this subdivision, “terminal” means either of the following:
(1) A facility where freight originates, terminates, or is handled in the
transportation process.
(2) A facility where a motor carrier maintains operating facilities.

See https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/legal-truck-access

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret



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