Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[alyssa wright]

Thanks Clifford. We'll make sure to discuss this at a our future board
meeting.

Best,
Alyssa.

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 6:06 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> I'm curious to see the results of Zoe's survey and more importantly how we
> might use the knowledge to improve our tools and communications.
>
> It has been a long time since I worked with survey. But one of the key
> points I remember learning was that we needed a plan to work on the
> results. Getting the data is nice, but doing something about it is what
> counts.
>
> Let me propose the following two actions for the OSM-US Board to undertake
>
> 1. The Board commits to analyze and recommend changes based on the results
> of the survey.
>
> 2. The Board fund a program to increase the diversity number of the US
> mapping community. It could be anything from funding articles in targeted
> websites to funding speakers at events.
>
>
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[Martijn van Exel]

Marc,

> On Sep 5, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> What I am missing from all the statistics that we already have about
> mappers today, is how divers we map. This can be done e.g. by counting
> the number of different amenities, shops, crafts, leisures that a
> mapper added and/or updated.

I really like this idea and would like to see this as well, ideally of course 
as an open project. There’s bits and pieces already there, for example you can 
look at TagInfo to see the diversity of tagging in use in general. Also OSM US 
did a ‘ census’ asking mappers to give a little more information about 
themselves so we know more about the demographics / diversity of the mapping 
population. Also I did the ‘brave mappers’ hack a little while ago showing 
activity of mappers in a region over time.

However, what if we could see the diversity of mapping by country / region / 
city? Perhaps as a measure of % of documented and undocumented tagging used? I 
think that would indeed open some eyes — perhaps not specifically to gender 
issues, but to mapping diversity in general. That is, obviously, measuring on 
output — we still don’t know what the diversity of the actual population is 
that way — but an interesting research angle could then be to survey 
demographics (the input side) and look at input / output correlation.

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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[Zoe Gardner]

Am absolutely delighted, motivated and encouraged (not to mention
entertained) by the discussion here stimulated by the issue of gender bias
in OSM. From this and the previous thread (as well as responses to my diary
entries) it is evident that there is both support for and understanding of
this kind of research amongst the OSM community and how it might be
beneficial to OSM as a platform. For the more sceptical I have attempted in
diary entries, group mails and personal responses to elucidate the
rationale behind the research but wonder whether this is getting through.

This research is in no way critical of the valuable work that all OSM-ers
do. Nor is it an attack on men or their particular interests (research has
previously found a 96% male bias by the way). Instead, it is an effort to
understand the impact of this bias: research has intimated that the bias is
a problem but not stated how. By analysing what and how men and women map
differently - if indeed there is a difference - the problem can somehow be
qualified either way and I can't see how this would be detrimental to OSM.

Survey still open by the way (the greater the number of responses, the
greater the reliability of the results)!

https://nottingham.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/osm-user-profiles


On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 6:23 AM, alyssa wright 
wrote:

> Thank you Spencer for your thoughts!
>
> Speaking from my own experience, I come to OSM with many blind spots and I
> rely on others to help me understand what those blind spots are.
>
> Perhaps that is one best ways academic research can contribute to OSM --
> to let us see  something new that we were not able to see before.
>
> And thanks to Spencer for being brave enough to share your recessive eye
> color [1][2].
>
>  ;)
> Alyssa
>
>
> [1] Did you know that green is recessive to brown but dominant over blue?
> Hope you weren't mapping during bio classes.
>
> [2] I think it's super creative that Spencer combined the "mapping blind
> spots" and "eye color" in the same thread! Yay! OSMers are so creative!
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 9:36 PM Spencer Gardner 
> wrote:
>
>> My thoughts are:
>>
>>1. The negative reactions to the study seem to be putting the cart
>>before the horse. If our goal is to make OSM the most accurate and 
>> complete
>>map on the planet, it makes sense to me that we would want to understand
>>where our blind spots might be, whether they're due to differences in
>>participation by gender, ideology, etc. I would expect a vigorous debate
>>and passionate disagreement about what (if anything) to do about a blind
>>spot if one is found, but that's not really the question at hand. Let's
>>cross that bridge when we come to it. Of course, I'm willing to entertain
>>arguments for why someone shouldn't pursue this line of inquiry but I 
>> don't
>>see a compelling reason.
>>2. Thanks to the OSM community (esp. Ian, Alyssa, and the rest of the
>>board) for encouraging open, respectful conversation. I find my own
>>feelings on topics like this to be more complicated than either of the
>>screaming sides so I believe it's critical to ensure many voices are 
>> heard,
>>even from those whose perspective we find difficult.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Spencer
>> (green eyes)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM, alyssa wright 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Re your question about 
>>>
>>> If you are doing an academic study on eye color and OSM/VGI contribution
>>> -- I'd be happy to moderate a townhall as well.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I have blue eyes (and glasses).
>>>
>>> Alyssa.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Joel Holdsworth <
>>> j...@airwebreathe.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
 Could we have one eye colour, also? ;-)



 On 05/09/17 17:03, Ian Dees wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind
> that we all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
> conversation.
>
> I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get
> too hostile towards each other again.
>
> -Ian
>
>
> ___
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>
>

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>>>
>>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[alyssa wright]

Thank you Spencer for your thoughts!

Speaking from my own experience, I come to OSM with many blind spots and I
rely on others to help me understand what those blind spots are.

Perhaps that is one best ways academic research can contribute to OSM -- to
let us see  something new that we were not able to see before.

And thanks to Spencer for being brave enough to share your recessive eye
color [1][2].

 ;)
Alyssa


[1] Did you know that green is recessive to brown but dominant over blue?
Hope you weren't mapping during bio classes.

[2] I think it's super creative that Spencer combined the "mapping blind
spots" and "eye color" in the same thread! Yay! OSMers are so creative!

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 9:36 PM Spencer Gardner 
wrote:

> My thoughts are:
>
>1. The negative reactions to the study seem to be putting the cart
>before the horse. If our goal is to make OSM the most accurate and complete
>map on the planet, it makes sense to me that we would want to understand
>where our blind spots might be, whether they're due to differences in
>participation by gender, ideology, etc. I would expect a vigorous debate
>and passionate disagreement about what (if anything) to do about a blind
>spot if one is found, but that's not really the question at hand. Let's
>cross that bridge when we come to it. Of course, I'm willing to entertain
>arguments for why someone shouldn't pursue this line of inquiry but I don't
>see a compelling reason.
>2. Thanks to the OSM community (esp. Ian, Alyssa, and the rest of the
>board) for encouraging open, respectful conversation. I find my own
>feelings on topics like this to be more complicated than either of the
>screaming sides so I believe it's critical to ensure many voices are heard,
>even from those whose perspective we find difficult.
>
> Regards,
> Spencer
> (green eyes)
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM, alyssa wright 
> wrote:
>
>> Re your question about 
>>
>> If you are doing an academic study on eye color and OSM/VGI contribution
>> -- I'd be happy to moderate a townhall as well.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I have blue eyes (and glasses).
>>
>> Alyssa.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Joel Holdsworth > > wrote:
>>
>>> Could we have one eye colour, also? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/09/17 17:03, Ian Dees wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind
 that we all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
 conversation.

 I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too
 hostile towards each other again.

 -Ian


 ___
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>>>
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>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[Marc Gemis]

In the old thread someone wrote (paraphrasing): I map from
photographs, so I'm not biased.

Since I map in the same way, I have a couple of thoughts. A photo is a
personal interpretation of the real world. The photographer framed the
scene, leaving out or including items. This can be conscious or
unconscious. The interpretation of the photo also depends on the
individual. I once send a photo to the osm-be mailing list and asked
people what they would map. My purpose was to see whether I missed
some things or perhaps teach people to see better and map things they
did not know you could map. Different mappers gave different answers.
This means to me that mapping from a photo is not necessarily
unbiased.

I'm not saying the person in the original thread is dishonest, I
really believe he is trying to do the best he can for OSM, but some
bias can occur.
I know I might never skip taking photos of wayside shrines or dog
parks, but I might "forget" to take a picture of a shop if I'm tired
or have taken lots of pictures during a walk.

What I am missing from all the statistics that we already have about
mappers today, is how divers we map. This can be done e.g. by counting
the number of different amenities, shops, crafts, leisures that a
mapper added and/or updated. So not counting the number of amenities
one maps, but the number of different values of amenity one mapped. Of
course this depends on how well mapped your area is or how many
different features there are in your area. But I'm not the one doing
the research.
Then one can try to see whether this "diversity number" is biased by
gender, religion, education, mother tongue or any other aspect.

E.g. I know nothing about trees, so I will not map the genus of the
trees. So what I know has an impact on OSM. Depending on the OSM
population, genus will be mapped or not. I do not know whether there
are a lot of people that know the difference between the different
species of trees in OSM. So I cannot tell whether OSM is a good,
reliable database to find out about trees in different regions. This
is just one example, please do not focus on this particular example in
your replies.

Those are interesting questions to me. I understand that others do not
care, but I hope people will allow researchers to investigate this
type of topics.

regards

m

p.s. I'm a Belgian, my first language is Dutch, so forgive me when I
didn't use the best English words. It is not my intent to insult or
shame anyone.

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind that we
> all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
> conversation.
>
> I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too
> hostile towards each other again.
>
> -Ian
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[alyssa wright]

Re your question about 

If you are doing an academic study on eye color and OSM/VGI contribution --
I'd be happy to moderate a townhall as well.

For what it's worth, I have blue eyes (and glasses).

Alyssa.



On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Joel Holdsworth 
wrote:

> Could we have one eye colour, also? ;-)
>
>
>
> On 05/09/17 17:03, Ian Dees wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind that
>> we all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
>> conversation.
>>
>> I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too
>> hostile towards each other again.
>>
>> -Ian
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[alyssa wright]

Thanks Ian et al. I'd also like to weigh in with two more points:

   1. It's great Zoe's academic inquiry inspired so much discussion. As
   long as it is respectful and productive, we welcome all community input.
   2. If people are interested in taking this off email and speaking more
   directly, I'd be happy to organize a townhall. Please ping me or anyone
   else on the US board and we can help make it an opportunity for us to learn
   more and be involved with this research.

Thanks,
Alyssa.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind that
> we all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
> conversation.
>
> I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too
> hostile towards each other again.
>
> -Ian
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[Joel Holdsworth]

Could we have one eye colour, also? ;-)


On 05/09/17 17:03, Ian Dees wrote:

Hi all,

Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind that 
we all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive 
conversation.


I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too 
hostile towards each other again.


-Ian


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[Talk-us] Gender in OpenStreetMap

[Ian Dees]

Hi all,

Let's continue the conversation on this new thread, keeping in mind that we
all need to keep our mind open and have productive and positive
conversation.

I reserve the right to add a moderated cooling off period if we get too
hostile towards each other again.

-Ian
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