Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> No, I don't think so.  The individual ways seem to be the way to go,
> especially for editors, since (at least in Oklahoma), posted speed limits,
> as compared to miles available (as opposed to miles with traffic volume)
> are relatively rare.  It also obviates when you find a posted speed limit
> in an area that's otherwise default.  This also greatly improves the
> quality of the data (even if you're bulk tagging an entire county, this
> correctly sets the speed limit for well over 90% of lane miles in the
> county, and gives a reasonably sane assumption and obviates issues inside
> city limits and on state highways (which often have lower zone and
> sometimes higher explicit; and generally higher explicit limits
> respectively).
>
> For data consumers, tagging a boundary for zone limits ends up requiring
> the consumer to be geographically aware of the location well beyond the
> nearest object or the way being traversed longitudinally, which becomes
> problematic in itself.
>

My Garmin and now my TomTom navigation system in my car often shows no
default speed limit in city. They must rely on information posted on way
vectors. Driving in an unfamiliar area, you don't often know the default
speed limit. It would be great if we posted maxspeed on all city streets,
but it just isn't happening. I'll get around to doing my city, but doing
much more would be very time consuming.

Certainly we'd need consumers to use the data. But if we did post the
maxspeed in the boundary/relation, I would suspect that it would start to
used.

I do believe, but don't know for sure, that consumers are already aware of
which boundary they are in. For example, most searches default to the city
you are in.

Clifford


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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:05 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Entering most counties you get a sign that's printed in FlySpeck 3 font
>> that reads:
>>
>> Unless otherwise posted speed limit
>> 35 MPH
>> on all roads in Lincoln County
>>
>
> I wonder if adding default maxspeed to the city admin boundaries would be
> an easy way to post these city/county limits? The alternative is to add the
> maxspeed to every highway segment in a city.
>

No, I don't think so.  The individual ways seem to be the way to go,
especially for editors, since (at least in Oklahoma), posted speed limits,
as compared to miles available (as opposed to miles with traffic volume)
are relatively rare.  It also obviates when you find a posted speed limit
in an area that's otherwise default.  This also greatly improves the
quality of the data (even if you're bulk tagging an entire county, this
correctly sets the speed limit for well over 90% of lane miles in the
county, and gives a reasonably sane assumption and obviates issues inside
city limits and on state highways (which often have lower zone and
sometimes higher explicit; and generally higher explicit limits
respectively).

For data consumers, tagging a boundary for zone limits ends up requiring
the consumer to be geographically aware of the location well beyond the
nearest object or the way being traversed longitudinally, which becomes
problematic in itself.

Of course, Oregon doesn't quite have this problem, ZIGZAG
, among other things, has speed orders
for *every* public way that has a non-default speed limit, as ODOT has
exclusive rights to set speed limits on public property in Oregon (and in
the off chance that there's no speed order, then the default speed limits
apply, which I've covered many times in the past and are also published in
the driver's manual (and I seem to recall, tested against in the driver's
test, as the only question I got wrong was how much faster an ambulance
with it's lights and sirens on is allowed to travel over the speed order
(turns out the answer is 10 MPH over, but good luck finding a cop willing
to pull over a responding ambulance).  This is all public data under the
Oregon Sunshine laws, and if someone were to do the lookups and conflation
work, it would be possible to get exact speed limit information for every
way open to motorists in Oregon that isn't private property.
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-01 18:41 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow :

> I wonder if adding default maxspeed to the city admin boundaries would be
> an easy way to post these city/county limits? The alternative is to add the
> maxspeed to every highway segment in a city.



we're doing the latter around here. It seems a huge redundancy
introduction, and indeed it is, but it works ;-)
Keep in mind how osm works. This way of doing it has the advantage that it
is easy to understand and maintain, because having the default added to
some boundary only would require mappers to look for this boundary
(typically you will just download a small chunk of the city and do your
edits there, you probably won't have this boundary poly in your editor).
And there might be more than one (overlapping) boundary polygons, if those
had different maxspeeds tagged it will not be much fun to find the problem.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Richard Welty]

On 12/1/14 12:41 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:


On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:05 AM, Paul Johnson > wrote:


Entering most counties you get a sign that's printed in FlySpeck 3
font that reads:

Unless otherwise posted speed limit
35 MPH
on all roads in Lincoln County


I wonder if adding default maxspeed to the city admin boundaries would 
be an easy way to post these city/county limits? The alternative is to 
add the maxspeed to every highway segment in a city.



you'd have to add them to relations for many cases where boundaries are
shared; the question you have to ask yourself is whether processing these
would be a reasonable thing to expect of data consumers (routing engines
being an example where the consumer might reasonably want to know
the maxspeed values).

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:05 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Entering most counties you get a sign that's printed in FlySpeck 3 font
> that reads:
>
> Unless otherwise posted speed limit
> 35 MPH
> on all roads in Lincoln County
>

I wonder if adding default maxspeed to the city admin boundaries would be
an easy way to post these city/county limits? The alternative is to add the
maxspeed to every highway segment in a city.

Clifford


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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Richard Welty]

On 12/1/14 11:26 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:



so what's the limit in alleys then? ;-)

Well, in Oregon, unless otherwise posted, they're 15 MPH or what's 
reasonable and safe, whichever is lower, under Oregon's basic speed 
rule.  In Oklahoma, I don't think I've ever seen an alleyway with a 
speed limit,


i've never seen an alley qualifier in NY (or other northeastern states), 
usually

there's just an all purpose "Area Speed Limit" sign, and sometimes they're
quite erratic - there is a neighborhood near me named Wynantskill that has
a mixture of 30mph signs and area speed limit 25mph signs with no clear
pattern indicating what was really intended.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2014-12-01 17:05 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :
>
>> We just get crazy with it.  The two signs below tend to be common in
>> Oklahoma.  Entering most towns you see a sign similar to this one:
>> http://imgur.com/QhYtLhl
>>
>
>
>
> so what's the limit in alleys then? ;-)
>

Well, in Oregon, unless otherwise posted, they're 15 MPH or what's
reasonable and safe, whichever is lower, under Oregon's basic speed rule.
In Oklahoma, I don't think I've ever seen an alleyway with a speed limit,
but given that 1) it's windy, so any street furniture like trash barrels
tend to blow around if you don't keep a cinderblock in the bottom, and thus
need to either get out and push 'em back out of the way or just nudge 'em
out of the way with your vehicle, 2) extremely narrow, with buildings
usually immediately abutting, often with dumpsters and fire escapes (and if
not that, unpaved and extremely rough from heavy garbage trucks stopping
and starting in the mud).  If you can do more than single digits down an
alley 'round these parts without having common sense enforced by Officer
Isaac Newton, you might not actually be on an alley.  ;o)
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-01 17:05 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :

> We just get crazy with it.  The two signs below tend to be common in
> Oklahoma.  Entering most towns you see a sign similar to this one:
> http://imgur.com/QhYtLhl
>



so what's the limit in alleys then? ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 6:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> 2014-11-30 4:09 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :
>
>> We have a similar convention in the US for doing that, though usually
>> requires tagging traffic_sign=maxspeed, maxspeed=?? mph in a few places,
>> since there's often multiple "steps" from rural speeds to town speeds when
>> entering a town or city
>
>
>
>
> yes, that's what we do as well, but it is different in that these are
> explicit maxspeed limits, while a "city_limit" traffic sign is an implicit
> speed limit (we are using both, according to which signs there are). We'd
> also add source:maxspeed=sign / IT:rural / IT:urban / IT:motorway etc. tags
> on the way with the maxspeed to say where it comes from (useful in case the
> default implicit limit changes).
>

We just get crazy with it.  The two signs below tend to be common in
Oklahoma.  Entering most towns you see a sign similar to this one:
http://imgur.com/QhYtLhl

Entering most counties you get a sign that's printed in FlySpeck 3 font
that reads:

Unless otherwise posted speed limit
35 MPH
on all roads in Lincoln County
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-30 4:09 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :

> We have a similar convention in the US for doing that, though usually
> requires tagging traffic_sign=maxspeed, maxspeed=?? mph in a few places,
> since there's often multiple "steps" from rural speeds to town speeds when
> entering a town or city




yes, that's what we do as well, but it is different in that these are
explicit maxspeed limits, while a "city_limit" traffic sign is an implicit
speed limit (we are using both, according to which signs there are). We'd
also add source:maxspeed=sign / IT:rural / IT:urban / IT:motorway etc. tags
on the way with the maxspeed to say where it comes from (useful in case the
default implicit limit changes).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Paul Johnson]

We have a similar convention in the US for doing that, though usually
requires tagging traffic_sign=maxspeed, maxspeed=?? mph in a few places,
since there's often multiple "steps" from rural speeds to town speeds when
entering a town or city (Oklahoma sense; Oregon would call anything
incorporated "city" regardless of size, even when the town name more or
less accurately describes the size of the city in question (Wood Village,
Government Camp); neither state has the concept any other settlement types
we have in OSM).

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2014-11-11 11:02 GMT+01:00 Minh Nguyen :
>
>> where the speed limit suddenly jumps from 25 to 55 at a village limit.
>>
>
>
>
> not sure if you are aware of this, in Europe we are mapping those village
> limits (with the tag "traffic_sign=city_limit" and sometimes additionally
> with name=placename) in order to better track speed limits. We'd typically
> put the city_limit sign on the right side of the highway (it is not
> intended for automatic data consumers but more a help for human mappers),
> and not on the highway, to preserve implicit direction information.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-11 11:02 GMT+01:00 Minh Nguyen :

> where the speed limit suddenly jumps from 25 to 55 at a village limit.
>



not sure if you are aware of this, in Europe we are mapping those village
limits (with the tag "traffic_sign=city_limit" and sometimes additionally
with name=placename) in order to better track speed limits. We'd typically
put the city_limit sign on the right side of the highway (it is not
intended for automatic data consumers but more a help for human mappers),
and not on the highway, to preserve implicit direction information.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2014-11-10 21:51, James Mast wrote:

I'm just curious, but can anybody verify the speed limits that user
msheerin17 [1] has been randomly adding across the US?  He seems to fond
of adding a lot of 'maxspeed=55 mph' tags to ways in completely
different areas (he does add other speed limits, but well over 60% have
been 55 mph).

I have tried to contact this user about all the speed limits he's been
adding and did get a response back from him only once (back on October
15th).  In that response, he claimed he was getting the speed limits
from "our customers", but at no time did he mention what company he was
working for or what app was generating the input from people of the
'correct speed limits'.  He even told me to let him know if I had any
more questions, but he's never responded to any other messages that I
sent him after that asking about that info.

I do know one changeset [2] was at least was partially correct (was for
a small segment of PA-28 and I could verify that since I live near it),
however, a small part he tagged @ 55 mph is still officially 45 mph (the
NB bridge over PA-8 is posted @ 45 mph still, not 55 mph).  However,
there are other changesets out there that he did where there is no way
possible the speed limit he added could be correct. [3]

So, if anybody lives near any of his changesets were he's added the
maxspeed tag and can verify if they are either correct or incorrect, I'd
appreciate it.  If he's been adding a lot of incorrect speed limits, we
need to nip this in the behind fast before it gets too out of hand.  If
most of them are incorrect (being 15+ over the actual posted limit or
more in some places), it could seriously cause problems with the routers
that use OSM data, especially in areas where we don't have any active
mappers to verify said speed limits.  Heck, it could even lead to bad
press if somebody gets a speeding ticket and they try to blame OSM for
it because of the incorrect speed limit in the database.


I spot-checked the 50 or so ways msheerin17 tagged in Ohio; the speed 
limits look plausible for the most part. Most are undivided rural roads, 
which are 55 or 60 mph by default. Suburban arterial roads with 45 or 50 
mph limits aren't unheard of, either.


My only beef with their changes is that they didn't split the ways up 
before tagging them. Roads leading into town, like [1] and [2], could 
well be 50 at one end but decrease in steps to only 25 at the other end. 
In fact, I know of several roads where the speed limit suddenly jumps 
from 25 to 55 at a village limit.


Wikipedia has a table of statutory speed limits that may help assess 
their edits in other states. [3]


[1] http://osm.org/way/302290438
[2] http://osm.org/way/19268121
[3] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States#Speed_limits


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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Hans De Kryger]

Did find this, if this helps at all. Max speed limit for roads in
Pennsylvania.

I highly doubt the speed limit for the road in link 3 also. It's a
residential road.

1.) http://www.speed-limits.com/pennsylvania.htm

*Regards,*

*Hans*

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Shawn K. Quinn 
wrote:

> On Tue, 2014-11-11 at 00:51 -0500, James Mast wrote:
> > Heck, it could even lead to bad press if somebody gets a speeding
> > ticket and they try to blame OSM for it because of the incorrect speed
> > limit in the database.
>
> No decent motorist has any excuse for trusting OSM data over the numbers
> on the speed limit signs.
>
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Tue, 2014-11-11 at 00:51 -0500, James Mast wrote:
> Heck, it could even lead to bad press if somebody gets a speeding
> ticket and they try to blame OSM for it because of the incorrect speed
> limit in the database.

No decent motorist has any excuse for trusting OSM data over the numbers
on the speed limit signs.


-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 


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[Talk-us] User randomly adding speed limits across the US

[James Mast]

I'm just curious, but can anybody verify the speed limits that user msheerin17 
[1] has been randomly adding across the US?  He seems to fond of adding a lot 
of 'maxspeed=55 mph' tags to ways in completely different areas (he does add 
other speed limits, but well over 60% have been 55 mph).

I have tried to contact this user about all the speed limits he's been adding 
and did get a response back from him only once (back on October 15th).  In that 
response, he claimed he was getting the speed limits from "our customers", but 
at no time did he mention what company he was working for or what app was 
generating the input from people of the 'correct speed limits'.  He even told 
me to let him know if I had any more questions, but he's never responded to any 
other messages that I sent him after that asking about that info.

I do know one changeset [2] was at least was partially correct (was for a small 
segment of PA-28 and I could verify that since I live near it), however, a 
small part he tagged @ 55 mph is still officially 45 mph (the NB bridge over 
PA-8 is posted @ 45 mph still, not 55 mph).  However, there are other 
changesets out there that he did where there is no way possible the speed limit 
he added could be correct. [3]

So, if anybody lives near any of his changesets were he's added the maxspeed 
tag and can verify if they are either correct or incorrect, I'd appreciate it.  
If he's been adding a lot of incorrect speed limits, we need to nip this in the 
behind fast before it gets too out of hand.  If most of them are incorrect 
(being 15+ over the actual posted limit or more in some places), it could 
seriously cause problems with the routers that use OSM data, especially in 
areas where we don't have any active mappers to verify said speed limits.  
Heck, it could even lead to bad press if somebody gets a speeding ticket and 
they try to blame OSM for it because of the incorrect speed limit in the 
database.

-James

[1] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/msheerin17/history
[2] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/24355862
[3] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/26366111

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