Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Richard Welty wrote: > if you see a discrepancy between aerial imagery and OSM, before you > go adding/changing stuff, check on the history of the stuff that's there > and see if another mapper has worked on things recently (for some > value of recently.) [ ... ] > imagery goes out of date. armchair mappers must never forget > that. if the imagery doesn't match the map, contact a local mapper > if you can identify one. you could be fixing something that wasn't > actually broken. Indeed. New construction vs. old imagery isn't the only problem here. New, enthusiastic mappers are great; they are why the project keeps growing. Technology is not the complete answer. We might implement something new that coordinates with some sub-set of editor software, but we have to educate the mappers as part of the solution. We have to or we are dead. Untempered enthusiasm is a runaway train. It's low grade heat rather than directed energy. It's inefficient and harmful to surrounding systems. Every One Of Our Resources Is Lying To Us. We mappers have to learn which resources lie to us and in which ways. Then we can map with all of the resources at our disposal and a heaped serving of experience. We have to get armchair mappers to do actual foot surveys as part of their education. The context gained by mapping and remapping your neighbourhood cannot be overstated. As a new, armchair mapper, you cannot appreciate the whoppers that aerial imagery might lead you to publish until you catch yourself making a bone-headed error at home. And you can't catch yourself making that error thousands of miles from home. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 06.12.2013 22:51, Richard Welty wrote: > i'm thinking maybe we need an agreed upon way of marking these > areas so that the usual editors (id, potlatch2, josm) can flag > them as places where aerial imagery is out of date. I have lost track of the various initiatives to record aerial imagery offsets but what you are asking for here is very similar - a note to users of a certain aerial imagery source in a certain area, that should ideally be popped up by the editor once the user gives the impression of wanting to work in that area and has the imagery in question on screen. The simplest and most generic of these suggestions was to simply place nodes with a specific tagging somewhere in the general area for the editor to pick up and warn the user or auto-adjust aerial imagery. The disadvantage obviously being that you'll miss the note if your edit area doesn't include it, and that the database gets polluted with meta objects (cf. discussion about "aerial imagery boundary" objects). This could be improved to allow "remarks" that cover whole areas and not only points (and btw. it needn't even be aerial imagery related - once established, people might even put it to (mis?)use by drawing a rectangle that pops up a message "mapping party here next weekend, contact u...@domain.com", and/or a different server could be used for such meta data. A few months ago, Zverik launched a small project that would allow you to chat with nearby other mappers active in the same area - technologically it should be very easy to piggyback some generic "area related messaging" function onto that because it already implements the "editor sends area being edited to server, server checks if others are in the same area and sends back a notify message" bit. A very interesting field that, if done well, can make mapping much more collaborative (you may say "social" if you're so inclined) than it is now! I'm not sure why none of the aerial imagery offset correction ideas has really established itself yet; I fear the process might have been over engineered and the perfect is the enemy of the good. Bye Frederik - -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSonjuAAoJEOx/uhGAJu9HwaYH/RybYdgMeiWDI5yarwcU2Cli 3KMi6WZPtuooA6JHcAogETjShewwxx6wj/0vik6q3YBoVW6T9xuQehhiTqt6dtgE z5T8pDOWD89byuPQFhLwsYT3izj9i04gnjK/v4qjfqp4dxbbhJoHTQWwP8ZxDpfV owqgLAQFGK8GkmSXL44Zt03VoqhZEjypEfK/wRS1Rc6+sOKiHUSgzs6gM3YiFFBa QLqpP82OC8gOCDSmI/Z0i9wJy5uY62sjGRogPy5LLSsh0B/46GfcuuKw8UoFDGj2 HRw4yK0Nczoo6Ynaa+TOV9IRuDe95bZp2eCpULzEsn/nvdgk5QdVeAgdJOZUi4Y= =GMnf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
Imagery is only out of date if something was (de)constructed since the imagery was collected that would affect how that area is accurately mapped. Therefore to me it makes more sense to tag the newer objects rather than entire areas with a specific tag that editors would pick up and act upon appropriately (highlight, emit a warning when you change geometry or delete it, something like that) On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Chris Lawrence wrote: > I believe at some point there was, or at least there was discussion of > implementing, a way to mark areas where the aerial imagery is out-of-date. > Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank on any further development from there, but > that would seem to be the best solution all-around (having cleaned up a > similar issue in my area a few weeks ago). > > > Chris > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Richard Welty > wrote: >> >> i'm thinking maybe we need an agreed upon way of marking these >> areas so that the usual editors (id, potlatch2, josm) can flag them >> as places where aerial imagery is out of date. >> >> also, Mike N had suggested highway:disused. instead, maybe >> something like highway:removed=yes would work. >> >> i'd recommend highway:removed over highway=removed >> because some rendering engines will display a line for >> highway=removed, but ignore highway:removed because >> they don't recognize the tag. a local mapper here in Albany >> had added highway=proposed for a few proposals dating >> back to the 50s and 60s that will never be built. i changed >> them to highway=unbuilt, but that didn't make them go >> away, so they are now all highway:unbuilt=motorway (or >> whatever.) i left them in so they didn't get put back in using >> inappropriate tagging. >> >> richard >> >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > > > > -- > Chris Lawrence > > Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/ > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Martijn van Exel President, US Chapter OpenStreetMap http://openstreetmap.us/ http://osm.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
I believe at some point there was, or at least there was discussion of implementing, a way to mark areas where the aerial imagery is out-of-date. Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank on any further development from there, but that would seem to be the best solution all-around (having cleaned up a similar issue in my area a few weeks ago). Chris On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > i'm thinking maybe we need an agreed upon way of marking these > areas so that the usual editors (id, potlatch2, josm) can flag them > as places where aerial imagery is out of date. > > also, Mike N had suggested highway:disused. instead, maybe > something like highway:removed=yes would work. > > i'd recommend highway:removed over highway=removed > because some rendering engines will display a line for > highway=removed, but ignore highway:removed because > they don't recognize the tag. a local mapper here in Albany > had added highway=proposed for a few proposals dating > back to the 50s and 60s that will never be built. i changed > them to highway=unbuilt, but that didn't make them go > away, so they are now all highway:unbuilt=motorway (or > whatever.) i left them in so they didn't get put back in using > inappropriate tagging. > > richard > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > -- Chris Lawrence Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
i'm thinking maybe we need an agreed upon way of marking these areas so that the usual editors (id, potlatch2, josm) can flag them as places where aerial imagery is out of date. also, Mike N had suggested highway:disused. instead, maybe something like highway:removed=yes would work. i'd recommend highway:removed over highway=removed because some rendering engines will display a line for highway=removed, but ignore highway:removed because they don't recognize the tag. a local mapper here in Albany had added highway=proposed for a few proposals dating back to the 50s and 60s that will never be built. i changed them to highway=unbuilt, but that didn't make them go away, so they are now all highway:unbuilt=motorway (or whatever.) i left them in so they didn't get put back in using inappropriate tagging. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
Putting notes in the tags may be helpful, but in the "simple" tagging mode in P2 (does anyone still use that? I do, b/c I don't like iD), you can't see them and some mapper might not get the message in the note. Personally, pretty much all my edits are armchair mapping, but it's generally in my local area, so I often have knowledge of things on the ground before I go adding or deleting it from OSM. -Compdude On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Natfoot wrote: > I also agree that putting notes in the tags are helpful to some of us that > are armchair mappers. I will see the tags sooner than the history data. I > tend to map around railroads using the imagery and Tiger data and tags. > -Nathan > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > >> That is a great point and something I feel strongly about, having >> created armchair mapper's tools like Battle Grid and Maproulette. >> >> I will make some time to put in a warning notice into these tools that >> would pop up the first time folks use it. What would a good, concise, >> cautionary note look like? >> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Richard Welty >> wrote: >> > if you see a discrepancy between aerial imagery and OSM, before you >> > go adding/changing stuff, check on the history of the stuff that's there >> > and see if another mapper has worked on things recently (for some >> > value of recently.) i have done a bunch of work in the past month >> > adding in a new traffic circle on US 4 in Rensselaer County, NY, >> > using GPS traces. as part of the process, i removed a slip ramp >> > from I-90 that was taken out by DOT when they built the new >> > circle. i just now discovered that another mapper added the slip >> > ramp back in, presumably because it's in the Bing imagery, which >> > is at this point 2 or 3 years old. >> > >> > this isn't the first time i've been through this; a year or so back >> > a couple of armchair mappers repeatedly changed a part of Troy >> > to match obsolete imagery and i kept having to ask them not to >> > and put back in the recent changes. i now put README tags on >> > the ways but if i delete something i have no place to put a >> > README tag. >> > >> > imagery goes out of date. armchair mappers must never forget >> > that. if the imagery doesn't match the map, contact a local mapper >> > if you can identify one. you could be fixing something that wasn't >> > actually broken. >> > >> > thanks, >> >richard >> > >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Talk-us mailing list >> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Martijn van Exel >> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ >> http://openstreetmap.us/ >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
I also agree that putting notes in the tags are helpful to some of us that are armchair mappers. I will see the tags sooner than the history data. I tend to map around railroads using the imagery and Tiger data and tags. -Nathan On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > That is a great point and something I feel strongly about, having > created armchair mapper's tools like Battle Grid and Maproulette. > > I will make some time to put in a warning notice into these tools that > would pop up the first time folks use it. What would a good, concise, > cautionary note look like? > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Richard Welty > wrote: > > if you see a discrepancy between aerial imagery and OSM, before you > > go adding/changing stuff, check on the history of the stuff that's there > > and see if another mapper has worked on things recently (for some > > value of recently.) i have done a bunch of work in the past month > > adding in a new traffic circle on US 4 in Rensselaer County, NY, > > using GPS traces. as part of the process, i removed a slip ramp > > from I-90 that was taken out by DOT when they built the new > > circle. i just now discovered that another mapper added the slip > > ramp back in, presumably because it's in the Bing imagery, which > > is at this point 2 or 3 years old. > > > > this isn't the first time i've been through this; a year or so back > > a couple of armchair mappers repeatedly changed a part of Troy > > to match obsolete imagery and i kept having to ask them not to > > and put back in the recent changes. i now put README tags on > > the ways but if i delete something i have no place to put a > > README tag. > > > > imagery goes out of date. armchair mappers must never forget > > that. if the imagery doesn't match the map, contact a local mapper > > if you can identify one. you could be fixing something that wasn't > > actually broken. > > > > thanks, > >richard > > > > > > > > ___ > > Talk-us mailing list > > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > > > > -- > Martijn van Exel > http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ > http://openstreetmap.us/ > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
That is a great point and something I feel strongly about, having created armchair mapper's tools like Battle Grid and Maproulette. I will make some time to put in a warning notice into these tools that would pop up the first time folks use it. What would a good, concise, cautionary note look like? On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Richard Welty wrote: > if you see a discrepancy between aerial imagery and OSM, before you > go adding/changing stuff, check on the history of the stuff that's there > and see if another mapper has worked on things recently (for some > value of recently.) i have done a bunch of work in the past month > adding in a new traffic circle on US 4 in Rensselaer County, NY, > using GPS traces. as part of the process, i removed a slip ramp > from I-90 that was taken out by DOT when they built the new > circle. i just now discovered that another mapper added the slip > ramp back in, presumably because it's in the Bing imagery, which > is at this point 2 or 3 years old. > > this isn't the first time i've been through this; a year or so back > a couple of armchair mappers repeatedly changed a part of Troy > to match obsolete imagery and i kept having to ask them not to > and put back in the recent changes. i now put README tags on > the ways but if i delete something i have no place to put a > README tag. > > imagery goes out of date. armchair mappers must never forget > that. if the imagery doesn't match the map, contact a local mapper > if you can identify one. you could be fixing something that wasn't > actually broken. > > thanks, >richard > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] a reminder for armchair mappers
if you see a discrepancy between aerial imagery and OSM, before you go adding/changing stuff, check on the history of the stuff that's there and see if another mapper has worked on things recently (for some value of recently.) i have done a bunch of work in the past month adding in a new traffic circle on US 4 in Rensselaer County, NY, using GPS traces. as part of the process, i removed a slip ramp from I-90 that was taken out by DOT when they built the new circle. i just now discovered that another mapper added the slip ramp back in, presumably because it's in the Bing imagery, which is at this point 2 or 3 years old. this isn't the first time i've been through this; a year or so back a couple of armchair mappers repeatedly changed a part of Troy to match obsolete imagery and i kept having to ask them not to and put back in the recent changes. i now put README tags on the ways but if i delete something i have no place to put a README tag. imagery goes out of date. armchair mappers must never forget that. if the imagery doesn't match the map, contact a local mapper if you can identify one. you could be fixing something that wasn't actually broken. thanks, richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
