Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
The USPS site referenced below has zipcode polygons and postal delivery routes overlaid on an interactive map along with the number of residences and business each route serves. Search for a zipcode or an address to get started. https://eddm.usps.com/eddm/customer/routeSearch.action It looks like the zipcodes may be the Census version, just guessing by the field naming convention. You can browse the ArcGIS Server here: https://gis.usps.com/ArcSRV/rest/services/EDDM/EDDM_ZIP5/MapServer/0 Brian On 6/25/2013 4:59 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: Part of the reason that the USPS disavows a geographic boundary for ZIP Codes is that they often keep residential delivery and commercial delivery and high-rise delivery (having apts or suites) separate even when they are next to each other on the street. This can be confusing if you assume a geographic basis for ZIP Codes. Carl. I've always thought the best way to think of it is that ZIP codes are built from delivery routes. In essence they are linear features. My favorite example is that many National Parks have a DC ZIP code, despite being.. well... a long way from DC, because mail is routed through the National Park Service headquarters. d. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
> > Part of the reason that the USPS disavows a geographic boundary for ZIP Codes > is that they often keep residential delivery and commercial delivery and > high-rise delivery (having apts or suites) separate even when they are next > to each other on the street. This can be confusing if you assume a > geographic basis for ZIP Codes. > > Carl. I've always thought the best way to think of it is that ZIP codes are built from delivery routes. In essence they are linear features. My favorite example is that many National Parks have a DC ZIP code, despite being.. well… a long way from DC, because mail is routed through the National Park Service headquarters. d. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
Steve, On a more technical level "ZIP Code Tabulation Areas" (ZCTA5) are statistical areas that are built using a predominant ZIP Code method. The predominant ZIP Code for addresses within a Face (Faces combine into Blocks) is assigned to the Face. Then a complex algorithm in-fills ZCTA5 information onto Faces and Blocks that do not have a ZCTA5 from adjacent and nearby Faces and Blocks. Part of the reason that the USPS disavows a geographic boundary for ZIP Codes is that they often keep residential delivery and commercial delivery and high-rise delivery (having apts or suites) separate even when they are next to each other on the street. This can be confusing if you assume a geographic basis for ZIP Codes. Carl. On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: > On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > >> >> At SOTM-US (State of the Map US) I spoke to Steven Johnson of the Census >> Bureau on the issue of what data USPS actually has internally (as the >> Census Bureau has some special licensed access to this data). >> >> Yes, just to amplify: the Census Bureau purchases the Delivery Sequence > File (DSF) from USPS on an ongoing basis (at least 2x/year). The use of the > DSF dates from 1994 and Congressional authorization was required for the > Bureau to use the DSF. The DSF served as the foundation for the Bureau's > Master Address File (MAF). The DSF is by far the largest source of address > data for the Bureau, in excess of 90%. > > Apparently, the USPS does not even know the geocoordinates of most of >> their assets (e.g. post boxes, post offices, delivery addresses). They do >> have a near perfect database of *what* these assets are, just not >> the coordinates. And that itself is useful. Knowing a postbox exists is a >> huge clue to geocoding it. Knowing a postbox has been removed from service >> is a huge clue. >> > > Actually, I think I was referring to ZIP codes (but you're forgiven for > not recalling the details. ;-) ). The USPS *does not* maintain ZIP codes as > polygon features, because the ZIP code is associated with a delivery > *point* (i.e. a postal address). The Census Bureau combines those into > something known as "ZIP Code Tabulation Areas", which are an approximation > created by drawing boundaries around a collection of *points* that have ZIP > code in common. Many other commercial vendors create something similar. But > there is no official database of ZIP code polygons. > > As to whether USPS has coordinates/geocoded coords for all of the postal > 'furniture' out there, that I don't know. > > -- SEJ > -- twitter: @geomantic > -- skype: sejohnson8 > > There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate > from incomplete data. > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
One more point of good news/bad news to add: the Census did do its best to collect GPS coords for most structures during the 2010 Census, but will not be sharing that anytime soon: https://www.census.gov/privacy/data_protection/gps_coordinates.html On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: > On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > >> >> At SOTM-US (State of the Map US) I spoke to Steven Johnson of the Census >> Bureau on the issue of what data USPS actually has internally (as the >> Census Bureau has some special licensed access to this data). >> >> Yes, just to amplify: the Census Bureau purchases the Delivery Sequence > File (DSF) from USPS on an ongoing basis (at least 2x/year). The use of the > DSF dates from 1994 and Congressional authorization was required for the > Bureau to use the DSF. The DSF served as the foundation for the Bureau's > Master Address File (MAF). The DSF is by far the largest source of address > data for the Bureau, in excess of 90%. > > Apparently, the USPS does not even know the geocoordinates of most of >> their assets (e.g. post boxes, post offices, delivery addresses). They do >> have a near perfect database of *what* these assets are, just not >> the coordinates. And that itself is useful. Knowing a postbox exists is a >> huge clue to geocoding it. Knowing a postbox has been removed from service >> is a huge clue. >> > > Actually, I think I was referring to ZIP codes (but you're forgiven for > not recalling the details. ;-) ). The USPS *does not* maintain ZIP codes as > polygon features, because the ZIP code is associated with a delivery > *point* (i.e. a postal address). The Census Bureau combines those into > something known as "ZIP Code Tabulation Areas", which are an approximation > created by drawing boundaries around a collection of *points* that have ZIP > code in common. Many other commercial vendors create something similar. But > there is no official database of ZIP code polygons. > > As to whether USPS has coordinates/geocoded coords for all of the postal > 'furniture' out there, that I don't know. > > -- SEJ > -- twitter: @geomantic > -- skype: sejohnson8 > > There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate > from incomplete data. > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > > At SOTM-US (State of the Map US) I spoke to Steven Johnson of the Census > Bureau on the issue of what data USPS actually has internally (as the > Census Bureau has some special licensed access to this data). > > Yes, just to amplify: the Census Bureau purchases the Delivery Sequence File (DSF) from USPS on an ongoing basis (at least 2x/year). The use of the DSF dates from 1994 and Congressional authorization was required for the Bureau to use the DSF. The DSF served as the foundation for the Bureau's Master Address File (MAF). The DSF is by far the largest source of address data for the Bureau, in excess of 90%. Apparently, the USPS does not even know the geocoordinates of most of their > assets (e.g. post boxes, post offices, delivery addresses). They do have a > near perfect database of *what* these assets are, just not > the coordinates. And that itself is useful. Knowing a postbox exists is a > huge clue to geocoding it. Knowing a postbox has been removed from service > is a huge clue. > Actually, I think I was referring to ZIP codes (but you're forgiven for not recalling the details. ;-) ). The USPS *does not* maintain ZIP codes as polygon features, because the ZIP code is associated with a delivery *point* (i.e. a postal address). The Census Bureau combines those into something known as "ZIP Code Tabulation Areas", which are an approximation created by drawing boundaries around a collection of *points* that have ZIP code in common. Many other commercial vendors create something similar. But there is no official database of ZIP code polygons. As to whether USPS has coordinates/geocoded coords for all of the postal 'furniture' out there, that I don't know. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > > The data that Bryce is talking to us about is post office locations. > And even this, as we've begun to dig into it, is of limited value to > the project, since we have to do the geocoding for this data. > > It's still worth discussing with USPS, both for political and > technical reasons, but this is a very limited subset of our data and > not the same as the USPS "crown jewel" of all US addresses. At SOTM-US (State of the Map US) I spoke to Steven Johnson of the Census Bureau on the issue of what data USPS actually has internally (as the Census Bureau has some special licensed access to this data). Apparently, the USPS does not even know the geocoordinates of most of their assets (e.g. post boxes, post offices, delivery addresses). They do have a near perfect database of *what* these assets are, just not the coordinates. And that itself is useful. Knowing a postbox exists is a huge clue to geocoding it. Knowing a postbox has been removed from service is a huge clue. All this opens up an opportunity. If OSM is given a database of approximate postbox locations, hand mappers can find the dang things, and add value even for the USPS itself. Until USPS is willing or able to send their own carriers out to survey their own assets, OSM can do something USPS can't do itself. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Mark Newnham wrote: > I work in the Uitilities/Billing industry and do a reasonable amount of > work in addressing quality (in order to get lower USPS rates with things > like the Intelligent Mail Barcoder and suchlike). I'd just like to throw a > couple of things in to enhance the discussionThere are plenty of tools > that the USPS supplies to enhance address quality. > https://www.usps.com/business/manage-address-quality.htm > Hope this helps the discussion > To be clear: the USPS tools are geared to taking an existing list of addresses, and correcting them. The USPS works very hard to not be a source of previously unknown addresses (for whatever reason: they could do far better than most private mailing list vendors). Licence restrictions abound. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Mark Newnham wrote: >a. Both Google and Openstreetmap don't know anything about actual > addresses in the US. For reverse geocode purposes, they just guess based on > the approximate lat/long location. > > b. An easy example to show you is this - A search for "6188 South Poplar > St, Centennial. CO" in both google and openstreetmap will both return > results - Google will even give you a Streetview. But that property simply > doesn't exist. It never has/ It's easy to understand how you came to this conclusion, but what's happening inside is a bit different than this. What's happenijng when you search for this address in OSM is that you're using a service called Nominatim. What Nominatim is doing is saying "I don't know about this address, but I do know about this street, so I'm going to do my best to give you the information you've asked for". If you click on the details link in Nominatim from this query, it says that this address is estimated. I can't speak for Google and what its geocoder is doing. > USPS provides an easy to understand, comprehensive addressing method that > would allow OSM to provide a consistent addressing methodology to addresses. > For example, An armchair mapper might map an address like North Caley as > North Caley, Nort Caley NTH Caley or N Caley. (These are the most common > ways by the way for manually entered addresses). Yes, but they won't give us access to this data, so it's a bit of a moot point. The data that Bryce is talking to us about is post office locations. And even this, as we've begun to dig into it, is of limited value to the project, since we have to do the geocoding for this data. It's still worth discussing with USPS, both for political and technical reasons, but this is a very limited subset of our data and not the same as the USPS "crown jewel" of all US addresses. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
I work in the Uitilities/Billing industry and do a reasonable amount of work in addressing quality (in order to get lower USPS rates with things like the Intelligent Mail Barcoder and suchlike). I'd just like to throw a couple of things in to enhance the discussion. 1. In 90% of cases in the US, The physical address (which can be found using a reverse geocode) is the Postal Address. Obvious areas of difference are: a. PO Boxes b. Rural Areas where there is no mail delivery. But in this case, the Physical address can be found using a reverse geocode. 2. In an earlier part of the thread, someone mentioned PO Boxes. These are Mailing Addresses not physical addresss. The distinction is important. 3. Importantly - a. Both Google and Openstreetmap don't know anything about actual addresses in the US. For reverse geocode purposes, they just guess based on the approximate lat/long location. b. An easy example to show you is this - A search for "6188 South Poplar St, Centennial. CO" in both google and openstreetmap will both return results - Google will even give you a Streetview. But that property simply doesn't exist. It never has/ c. If you go to USPS, https://tools.usps.com/go/POLocatorAction.action they know that it doesn't exist. This is the address quality that USPS supplies. USPS provides an easy to understand, comprehensive addressing method that would allow OSM to provide a consistent addressing methodology to addresses. For example, An armchair mapper might map an address like North Caley as North Caley, Nort Caley NTH Caley or N Caley. (These are the most common ways by the way for manually entered addresses). The only reverse 911 addresses I have provided are validated USPS addresses. If the USPS standard was applied to addressing (and it is a standard that everyone in the US knows and understands) then OSM would be gain a leap in addressing quality. In fact, I would imagine that 75% of the work could be done by Bots There are plenty of tools that the USPS supplies to enhance address quality. https://www.usps.com/business/manage-address-quality.htm Hope this helps the discussion Mark From: Bryce Nesbitt To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding? On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Richard Welty wrote: Surveying postal addresses by opening mailboxes (illegal) or knocking on doors doesn't seem feasible. >> >> but the enhanced 911 addresses are basically the same as the postal >addresses and have the potential to become available. i'm working on >that in my part of upstate NY. e911 is a very hopeful source for OSM: high quality coding would be huge. For good background, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireline_enhanced_911 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On 6/22/13 9:04 PM, Paul Norman wrote: ...lots of good points... Something else worth noting is this isn't an either-or situation for geocoding. There is no reason you can't have both the street address and postal address geocode to the same physical location. It is common to have multiple inputs geocode to the same location. For reverse geocoding you probably want the street address, not the postal address. I suspect looking up the address of a point to navigate there is far more common than looking up the address of a point to send it mail. right. my fundamental point is we need to have some specification for what we thing geocoding is and how its behavior should look for the end users of the data. in the rural areas where i live, a lot of the digital mapping solutions are more than a little messed up in spots. one of my daughter's friends lives in Chatham, but her street address is Brainerd because the Brainerd PO delivers the mail - and Brainerd isn't even in the same county. a conversation with her parents about the address generally includes a list of things to try because there's no reliability or consistency much of anywhere. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
> From: Richard Welty [mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding? > > On 6/21/13 9:39 PM, Mike N wrote: > > On 6/21/2013 1:42 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > > Surveying postal addresses by opening mailboxes (illegal) or knocking > > on doors doesn't seem feasible. > > > but the enhanced 911 addresses are basically the same as the postal > addresses and have the potential to become available. i'm working on > that in my part of upstate NY. For the choice between defining addresses as street addresses or as postal addresses and where street addresses are verifiable on the ground and postal addresses are not, it seems to make sense to me to use the verifiable street addresses in preference to the postal addresses. My last job had different street addresses and postal addresses. The street address was Main Building 6951 Westminster Highway Richmond, BC The postal addresses were PO Box 5350 Stn Terminal Vancouver BC V6B 5L5 *and* PO Box 4700 Stn Terminal Vancouver, BC V6B 1J1 I'm not sure how the mail got routed. I think we had enough mail for them to send an entire truck every day filled with mail just for us. Something else worth noting is this isn't an either-or situation for geocoding. There is no reason you can't have both the street address and postal address geocode to the same physical location. It is common to have multiple inputs geocode to the same location. For reverse geocoding you probably want the street address, not the postal address. I suspect looking up the address of a point to navigate there is far more common than looking up the address of a point to send it mail. For what it's worth for my last place of work Google only returns a result for the street address, not the postal addresses. The point Google returns is also off by about 12km. Bing is the same for what returns, but it's reasonably accurate. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > Surveying postal addresses by opening mailboxes (illegal) or knocking on >> doors doesn't seem feasible. >> >> but the enhanced 911 addresses are basically the same as the postal > addresses and have the potential to become available. i'm working on > that in my part of upstate NY. e911 is a very hopeful source for OSM: high quality coding would be huge. For good background, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireline_enhanced_911 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On 6/21/13 9:39 PM, Mike N wrote: On 6/21/2013 1:42 PM, Richard Welty wrote: there is no single solution to both of these problems. the current handling of this in Nominatum is so far as i know focused on admin boundaries, and will not handle the postal address case properly. so what do we mean by geocoding? what do we want it to do exactly? who is the customer and what are the use cases? The prospect of using the postal address in the US seems to be remote, as that information will need to come from the US Postal Service. Surveying postal addresses by opening mailboxes (illegal) or knocking on doors doesn't seem feasible. but the enhanced 911 addresses are basically the same as the postal addresses and have the potential to become available. i'm working on that in my part of upstate NY. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
On 6/21/2013 1:42 PM, Richard Welty wrote: there is no single solution to both of these problems. the current handling of this in Nominatum is so far as i know focused on admin boundaries, and will not handle the postal address case properly. so what do we mean by geocoding? what do we want it to do exactly? who is the customer and what are the use cases? The prospect of using the postal address in the US seems to be remote, as that information will need to come from the US Postal Service. Surveying postal addresses by opening mailboxes (illegal) or knocking on doors doesn't seem feasible. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] what do we mean by geocoding?
i think we probably need to specify this. do we want geocoding to reference postal addresses, e.g. 123 Example Street Anytown, IA, 12345 to resolve as a proper postal address both forwards and back, or do we want it to resolve within some recognized boundary for Anytown? these are different, sometimes very different. A friend of mine lives in the Town of Colonie, County of Albany here in New York, but he has a postal address of Schenectady (City in the County of Schenectady). there is no single solution to both of these problems. the current handling of this in Nominatum is so far as i know focused on admin boundaries, and will not handle the postal address case properly. so what do we mean by geocoding? what do we want it to do exactly? who is the customer and what are the use cases? richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
