Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
this should also go to the tagging list.
On 1/12/13 9:08 AM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote:
(this is a follow-up post to my original at
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-January/010086.html and
the responses thereto)
Thanks for the input on this topic earlier this month. I'm in agreement with
those who feel that the information is too volatile and potentially out of date
to apply to the roadway itself. I think it would be best to just document the
physical artifact which exists aside the road. Thus, I'd suggest to myself and
others the use of
...information=adopt-a-highway
...sign=yes
...organisation={name of organisation}
...source (on changeset or object)=survey = really should be obligatory
...source:date (on changeset or object)={date of survey}
Along with this would be a wiki page which describes the adopt-a-highway
information and implications of the positioning of the sign. In most cases,
the sign appears on the roadside of the carriageway to which is applies. Now,
the signs do typically appear in pairs, with the positioning of the pair
indicating the length of roadway to which the adopt-a-highway applies.
However, when driving, you typically only see one of the pair; regular driving
along a route can lead to awareness of the second position.
I think that creating a sign object in this way allows physical verification of
the information presented to motorists without complicating highway tagging or
creating an implication which would turn out to be incorrect about the actual
state of affairs.
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Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
To play Psychostik's advocate, translating girl directions. OK, now stay right while you're turning left, because you're going to hang a right after seriously the biggest tree you've ever seen, go five lampposts down, turn left on McCallaugh...or was it McDowell? McSomething. Then you'll keep going and hang a right after the Adopt-a-Highway sign for Drew Curtis' FARK UFIA. Because I am a Luddite with a $15 drug store burner phone with minimal text capability, I frequently transmit the sort of Val-Gal girl directions above. Also known as Kolmogorov Directions ( see http://xkcd.com/1155/), with two other additional merged Kolmogorov sets (reassurance markers (If you see the Burger King you are still on track and exclusionary markers ( If you see Doofer's you have gone too far). Formulation uses a further variation of 'minimum turns' and slackening of the end point criteria (to where you can actually park, rather than the building). :-) Michael ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
Whoa! Source is a deprecated tag, having been for years?! Good grief - the wiki has no indication that this is the case; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source . Could someone please confirm that source is a deprecated tag and that it should no longer be used? --ceyockey -Original Message- From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 1, 2013 9:31 PM To: dies38...@mypacks.net Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM Off list. I see you've put source and source:date tags on many objects. source on objects has been deprecated for years. I also see you've omitted those tags on your changesets (where they should be). Sadly changesets can't be edited once they've closed, but maybe you can use them in the future? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:55 AM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Whoa! Source is a deprecated tag, having been for years?! Good grief - the wiki has no indication that this is the case; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source . Could someone please confirm that source is a deprecated tag and that it should no longer be used? --ceyockey You're right; the documentation didn't reflect that. The source tag is one of those things which has changed. We used to stick a ton of information on the object, but as time has gone on, we've moved metadata to the changeset. Another example of this would be created_by. Older objects in OSM have a created_by tag that indicates the editor used to create the object. Modern editors put that information on the changeset. The editor community has discussed making source a default tag in the editor when a secondary source is used, for example if you were to have a Bing imagery layer, source=bing would be automatically filled in. source has been generally deprecated by use. Editors no longer use them by default, and most mappers don't use them on objects. The fact the documentation didn't reflect that is frustrating and confusing, but not surprising. I've fixed the documentation and added a section about the old use. - Serge -Original Message- From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 1, 2013 9:31 PM To: dies38...@mypacks.net Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM Off list. I see you've put source and source:date tags on many objects. source on objects has been deprecated for years. I also see you've omitted those tags on your changesets (where they should be). Sadly changesets can't be edited once they've closed, but maybe you can use them in the future? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On 1/1/13 7:32 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: I am interested in what tagging you would suggest to indicate that a stretch of road has been adopted as part of an Adopt-a-Highway program. unrelated to the source amenity tagging discussion... i think that maybe adapt-a-highway is probably an example of something best done as a mashup rather than something that ought to go in the OSM database. it seems to me to be a likely maintenance problem in the long run. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
it seems to me to be a likely maintenance problem in the long run. I know in Canada it certainly is! There are two adopt-a-highway signs where I live and both of the clubs that supposedly 'maintain' that part of the highway stopped participating in the program 7 years ago. The signs have remained up ever since. Cheers, ingalls ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
Is there a difference between deprecated and now used less frequently? Deprecated sounds pretty official, especially in our unofficious (word?) OSM society. On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:55 AM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Whoa! Source is a deprecated tag, having been for years?! Good grief - the wiki has no indication that this is the case; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source . Could someone please confirm that source is a deprecated tag and that it should no longer be used? --ceyockey You're right; the documentation didn't reflect that. The source tag is one of those things which has changed. We used to stick a ton of information on the object, but as time has gone on, we've moved metadata to the changeset. Another example of this would be created_by. Older objects in OSM have a created_by tag that indicates the editor used to create the object. Modern editors put that information on the changeset. The editor community has discussed making source a default tag in the editor when a secondary source is used, for example if you were to have a Bing imagery layer, source=bing would be automatically filled in. source has been generally deprecated by use. Editors no longer use them by default, and most mappers don't use them on objects. The fact the documentation didn't reflect that is frustrating and confusing, but not surprising. I've fixed the documentation and added a section about the old use. - Serge -Original Message- From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 1, 2013 9:31 PM To: dies38...@mypacks.net Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM Off list. I see you've put source and source:date tags on many objects. source on objects has been deprecated for years. I also see you've omitted those tags on your changesets (where they should be). Sadly changesets can't be edited once they've closed, but maybe you can use them in the future? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On 1/2/13 1:20 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote: Is there a difference between deprecated and now used less frequently? Deprecated sounds pretty official, especially in our unofficious (word?) OSM society. in my experience, deprecated is a pretty official declaration that something shouldn't be done/used anymore. java developers like me are quite accustomed to seeing APIs we use suddenly coming up deprecated, leading us to scramble to the docs to see what we're supposed to switch to now. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On 1/2/2013 2:16 PM, Richard Welty wrote: in my experience, deprecated is a pretty official declaration that something shouldn't be done/used anymore. java developers like me are quite accustomed to seeing APIs we use suddenly coming up deprecated, leading us to scramble to the docs to see what we're supposed to switch to now. I agree - I've already converted some of my local tagging away from a 'deprecated' tag, only to find out that none of the data consumers recognize the new tag. A better description would be cross reference one or more alternate tags for data consumers to expect and handle. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
Exactly. Where are these official declarations posted inside OSM? For example, Serge indicated source=* has been deprecated. Where is this (should this be) recorded? On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: deprecated is a pretty official declaration that something shouldn't be done/used anymore -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On 1/2/13 2:45 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote: Exactly. Where are these official declarations posted inside OSM? For example, Serge indicated source=* has been deprecated. Where is this (should this be) recorded? normally you'd indicate deprecation on the page for the tag itself. i'm not sure we have an official channel for deprecating a tag or practice right now, but i should think it ought to be beaten to death on the tagging list, at least, as a first step. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
The only real tag that is well and truly deprecated is created_by. Both JOSM and Potlatch automatically and silently delete this tag from any object you modify if it is present. So it is actually impossible to create a new object with a created_by tag on it in the two most popular editors. Toby On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 1/2/13 2:45 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote: Exactly. Where are these official declarations posted inside OSM? For example, Serge indicated source=* has been deprecated. Where is this (should this be) recorded? normally you'd indicate deprecation on the page for the tag itself. i'm not sure we have an official channel for deprecating a tag or practice right now, but i should think it ought to be beaten to death on the tagging list, at least, as a first step. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Jeff Meyer j...@gwhat.org wrote: Is there a difference between deprecated and now used less frequently? I've tried to use generally deprecated for Not used much and should not be used much. Where I've failed to do that, I apologize. Remember that virtually nothing in OSM is official (with a few very notable exceptions), none of which apply to tagging. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On 1/2/13 10:49 AM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/1/13 7:32 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: I am interested in what tagging you would suggest to indicate that a stretch of road has been adopted as part of an Adopt-a-Highway program. unrelated to the source amenity tagging discussion... i think that maybe adapt-a-highway is probably an example of something best done as a mashup rather than something that ought to go in the OSM database. it seems to me to be a likely maintenance problem in the long run. now that i've thought about it a bit more -- do you have a use case for the data once it's entered into OSM? that is, what data consumer do you imagine would use it, why and how? richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
To play Psychostik's advocate, translating girl directions. OK, now stay right while you're turning left, because you're going to hang a right after seriously the biggest tree you've ever seen, go five lampposts down, turn left on McCallaugh...or was it McDowell? McSomething. Then you'll keep going and hang a right after the Adopt-a-Highway sign for Drew Curtis' FARK UFIA. On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: On 1/2/13 10:49 AM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/1/13 7:32 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: I am interested in what tagging you would suggest to indicate that a stretch of road has been adopted as part of an Adopt-a-Highway program. unrelated to the source amenity tagging discussion... i think that maybe adapt-a-highway is probably an example of something best done as a mashup rather than something that ought to go in the OSM database. it seems to me to be a likely maintenance problem in the long run. now that i've thought about it a bit more -- do you have a use case for the data once it's entered into OSM? that is, what data consumer do you imagine would use it, why and how? richard __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 7:32 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote:
I am interested in what tagging you would suggest to indicate that a stretch
of road has been adopted as part of an Adopt-a-Highway program.
My thinking right now would be to include at the way level these additional
tags:
...amenity {Adopt-a-Highway}
...operator:amenity {Air Liquide}
...source:amenity {survey}
...source:amenity:date {2013-01-01}
...source_ref:amenity {roadside_sign}
The source:amenity tag should be a source tag on the changeset. The
changeset also records the time of changeset, so there's no need for
that source:amenity:date.
I don't know what this source_ref:amenity means, but from the context,
it seems part of your description of sourcing, which should be part of
the changeset, which is how we handle metadata.
As for amenity, I don't think that fits. You may want to talk to the
tagging list about tagging systems for this.
- Serge
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Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:33 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Thanks for your comments, Serge. I'm confused by your reference to changeset metadata as that is not easily accessible to future editors of the same ways. Changeset tags are accessible to editors just as easily accessible as regular tags are. They're stored alongside the object, and provide more information about the changes. This issue of changeset metadata has been discussed many times, and source tags on objects (and especially metadata about source tags) are generally not used and are deprecated. Source tags on changesets make a lot of sense, on the other hand. If you want to think about it in another way, all object tags are about the object. The information about how the information about the object got into OSM is contained in the changeset, and thus the changeset tags. source:amenity:date refers to the date on which the survey was done, which just happens to coincide with the date of entering the data. The survey could just as easily have been done 6 months ago, in which case, the source:amenity:date might be 2012-06-01, for example. You can add that to the changeset tags, if you want. It's really not related to the object, but the edit (see above). I don't know what this source_ref:amenity means, but from the context, it seems part of your description of sourcing, which should be part of the changeset, which is how we handle metadata. Without association of a description of the source with the tag, there is no way for editors to know where the information came from. Hopefully your question about this has been answered now. They should not have to dig into the changeset metadata to find out that the amenity information came from a roadside sign. Knowing how data was sourced is only important for historical reasons. Users and editors don't care about source at this level, and we've depreciated source tags on objects for a reason. For one of the ways, we're at Edit #4. Say we get to Edit #20 and someone wants to find out where the amenity information came from; it would be a major sifting activity through changesets to uncover that information. It's a single call to the API, or if you're in Josm, Ctrl-H, or if you're on the web, click the history page for the object, etc. Checking editing history is something OSM editors are used to doing. But if you still have questions, please join the tagging list, since this is a tagging discussion. Amenity as in the adopt-a-highway outcome is a cleaner roadway. Please join the tagging list and discuss. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
The amenity tag is way too overloaded to the point where it is pretty
useless. It might as well be thing instead of amenity. Do not use it
for new things. Why not just make a new tag like
adopt_a_highway=name of organization - it only requires one tag to
encode to encode the information and is much more obvious.
I would agree with Serge that things like the survey date should be
put on a changeset tag. I'm not quite as sold on the source=* tag on
objects being completely deprecated though. I still use them
occasionally although I do try to avoid them.
Toby
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 7:33 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote:
Thanks for your comments, Serge. I'm confused by your reference to changeset
metadata as that is not easily accessible to future editors of the same ways.
It would put informative content remove from the editing process.
I've made reply comments in-line below.
--ceyockey
-Original Message-
From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com
Sent: Jan 1, 2013 7:54 PM
To: dies38...@mypacks.net
Cc: osm talk us talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Adopt-a-highway representation in OSM
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 7:32 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote:
I am interested in what tagging you would suggest to indicate that a
stretch of road has been adopted as part of an Adopt-a-Highway program.
My thinking right now would be to include at the way level these additional
tags:
...amenity {Adopt-a-Highway}
...operator:amenity {Air Liquide}
...source:amenity {survey}
...source:amenity:date {2013-01-01}
...source_ref:amenity {roadside_sign}
The source:amenity tag should be a source tag on the changeset. The
changeset also records the time of changeset, so there's no need for
that source:amenity:date.
source:amenity:date refers to the date on which the survey was done, which
just happens to coincide with the date of entering the data. The survey
could just as easily have been done 6 months ago, in which case, the
source:amenity:date might be 2012-06-01, for example.
I don't know what this source_ref:amenity means, but from the context,
it seems part of your description of sourcing, which should be part of
the changeset, which is how we handle metadata.
Without association of a description of the source with the tag, there is no
way for editors to know where the information came from. They should not
have to dig into the changeset metadata to find out that the amenity
information came from a roadside sign. For one of the ways, we're at Edit
#4. Say we get to Edit #20 and someone wants to find out where the amenity
information came from; it would be a major sifting activity through
changesets to uncover that information.
As for amenity, I don't think that fits. You may want to talk to the
tagging list about tagging systems for this.
Amenity as in the adopt-a-highway outcome is a cleaner roadway.
- Serge
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