Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Ilya Zverev]

Handing out business cards is a great idea, which we in Russia have used 
numerous times. This usually directs a conversation towards mapping and 
its benefit for people, which is always good. You should not hide when 
mapping: educating people about OSM is an important part of surveying.


You can find a few design examples on our wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Business_card

Ilya

22.08.2018 02:20, Clifford Snow пишет:



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees > wrote:


It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed
out like business cards to handle this case in particular, where
business owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested
parties might express concern.

I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are 
easy to carry and not that expensive.


Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to 
include tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab 
at creating one?


--
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Though I'm "old enough in this project" to celebrate my first decade coming up, 
I haven't seen the English, German or ANY version in printed form — I'd now 
almost consider it a historic document!  And while I seldom snarl "don't print, 
we need our trees" (I did co-develop PDF while at Adobe, so I have helped 
humanity use less paper) I'm still OK with the idea of handing out business 
cards or printed matter explaining who OSM is and what we do.  A-OK.

I repeat myself, but simply opening my mouth and offering a helpful bit of 
truth and a smile has always gotten me a "thank you" in return.  So, "got 
paper?" to hand out?  Great!  Don't, but you have a mouth that politely 
explains OSM as a volunteer project while smiling?  That's good, too:  
invariably, you'll get a smile right back at you.

OSM remains one of the most cool, beneficial-to-humanity, 
feels-good-in-your-bones volunteer activities you might do right now.  Maybe 
that's just me, but I sincerely doubt that.

SteveA
California

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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Martijn van Exel]

A bit of a tangent perhaps, but I sometimes will carry a digital audio recorder 
to quickly take a voice note instead of a picture or paper note. It’s very 
inconspicuous and JOSM can load them in the actual location if they are 
properly time stamped. 

Martijn van Exel

> On Aug 21, 2018, at 17:20, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees  wrote: 
>> It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out 
>> like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business owners 
>> are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might express 
>> concern.
>  
> I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are easy 
> to carry and not that expensive.
> 
> Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to include 
> tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab at creating 
> one?
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> ___
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Clifford Snow]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM Ian Dees  wrote:

> It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out
> like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business
> owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might
> express concern.
>

I picked business cards because people are familiar with them, they are
easy to carry and not that expensive.

Having information on both sides, which I don't do, would allow us to
include tips to help owners add info to OSM. Anyone want to take a stab at
creating one?

-- 
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osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:01 PM Michael Reichert 
wrote:

> Many years ago? They have been produced for more than ten years now – in
> German. There is also an English version by Andy Allan. [1]
>

Yes, many years ago. Like you say:


> ...
> [1] Andy stopped distribution about two or three years ago.
>

It'd be great to have smaller, shorter versions that could be handed out
like business cards to handle this case in particular, where business
owners are curious and law enforcement or other interested parties might
express concern.
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 21.08.2018 um 20:19 schrieb Ian Dees:
> Many years ago some OSM folks put together little fold-up pamphlets that
> described OSM from a layperson's perspective. They were designed for
> promotion at events, but maybe we could put together a tiny little sheet of
> paper/business card that describes OSM from a business owner's perspective.
> If someone were to put such a thing together I'd be happy to get it printed
> and distribute to folks that didn't want to print it themselves.

Many years ago? They have been produced for more than ten years now – in
German. There is also an English version by Andy Allan. [1]

The sources of the English version can be found at GitHub:
https://github.com/fossgis/openstreetmap-promotional-leaflets

The photo does not show the latest version which does not mention the
OpenStreetMap book by Frederik Ramm and Jochen Topf any more.

The German version has different high-zoom maps featuring locations in
German. It is usually used by all our mappers out there collecting the
data and arguing with worried residents who assume that someone will
burgle into their house next week. Some are also used at fairs or
conferences where OSM community members are present.

In Germany, the German flyers are printed and distributed by Geofabrik
where mappers can order them via email and get a few of them via mail.

The mentioned flyers are very suitable for the issues mentioned by
Jason. I would appreciate it if other local chapters offered a similar
service where community members can order small packages of flyers.

Best regards

Michael



[1] Andy stopped distribution about two or three years ago.

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ausgenommen)
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Mike N]

On 8/21/2018 11:39 AM, Jmapb wrote:


Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC, 
but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer 
delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of 
their publicly-posted information.


  Good story!   I've only been questioned twice: once by a store owner 
who probably thought I was from some municipal code enforcement 
department, and one from a passing jogger.   In both cases I handed out 
a card and a quick explanation and that was the end of it.   But I do 
data entry back on the desktop so my appearance is normally just walking 
by and snapping 1 or 2 photos of each item.


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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I like Clifford's approach of "If you are curious and asking, I reply openly 
and honestly with my real name and a card I'm handing you so you may 
forthrightly know who I am and what I'm doing."

In the very, very limited number of times I have also had what I can only 
characterize as "mild inquisitiveness" towards "what are you doing with what 
looks like spying (no) / data collection (yes)?  This seldom if every gets rude 
or hostile, I ask them if they have a smart-phone (as they see me punching a 
mobile device in my hand, holding a GPS, scribbling notes on paper, or all 
three).  If they say "yes" (billions of us do), I ask, "Do you ever use maps on 
it or be a little amazed at how because it knows where you are (if you tell it 
that's OK) and then search for the nearest dry-cleaners is or how to most 
quickly walk to the drugstore it draws a nice set of lines on a map that is 
pretty, up to date, and takes you right there easily?  Well, as a volunteer in 
an open data mapping project called OpenStreetMap, I'm helping you continue to 
do that in the present and future by updating things around here."

I invariably get a smile and a hearty "thank you!" and it's all over in about 
twenty seconds.  Good will begets same.

The "scraping of menus" and "we deliver Ming's Chinese" (though Ming knows 
nothing about delivery of his food) are strange trends for me to see, but I 
suppose we shouldn't be too surprised.  Whether this is legal or ethical or has 
anything to do with maps (OSM or otherwise), I'll refrain from saying anything 
about here and now.  Except that as more and more telescopes are pointed at 
everybody everywhere, we shouldn't lament the disappearance of what we once 
quaintly thought of as "privacy."

Regards,
SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Kevin Broderick]

It's worth noting that at least one business out there (locu) has a nasty
habit of scraping menu data and then trying to sign restaurants up for a
search-engine visibility package in order to be able to update it (they'll
also remove it without a fee, if you ask in the right way, but there are
hoops to be jumped through).

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> When I'm out taking pictures for later entry into OSM, I bring a bunch of
> business cards to hand out. The card has my name, phone number, email and
> the OSM website. I do this because I'm hoping to get interested businesses
> to add more data to OSM. But giving the staff a card might also lessen
> their concerns. And it does help spread the word about OSM.
>
> Clifford
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:39 AM Jmapb  wrote:
>
>> Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
>> while mapping businesses in NYC.
>>
>> Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
>> check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
>> pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
>> hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
>> later.
>>
>> There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
>> -- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
>> outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
>> One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
>> information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
>> had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
>> my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
>> between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
>> delivery startup.
>>
>> I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
>> recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
>> complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
>> has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
>> delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
>> them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
>> (which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
>> restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
>> restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They
>> wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
>> could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
>> listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
>> them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.
>>
>> Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
>> but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
>> delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
>> their publicly-posted information.
>>
>> Happy mapping, Jason
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Food delivery services: Move-fast-and-break-trust

[Clifford Snow]

When I'm out taking pictures for later entry into OSM, I bring a bunch of
business cards to hand out. The card has my name, phone number, email and
the OSM website. I do this because I'm hoping to get interested businesses
to add more data to OSM. But giving the staff a card might also lessen
their concerns. And it does help spread the word about OSM.

Clifford



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:39 AM Jmapb  wrote:

> Hi USA, just wanted to bring up an issue that I've run into recently
> while mapping businesses in NYC.
>
> Whenever I'm walking through the city, I tend to whip out the phone and
> check for anything missing, incorrect, or incomplete. Often this means
> pausing in front of a restaurant and keying in contact info or opening
> hours. Sometimes I also take pictures with the intention of adding tags
> later.
>
> There have always been a few who treat this sort of thing with suspicion
> -- especially taking pictures. But a couple times lately I've met with
> outright hostility from restaurant staff when taking down their data.
> One owner complained he was sick of "people from websites posting his
> information." Turns out the culprits were food delivery services, who
> had been offering delivery from his place without authorization. I plead
> my innocence, but this guy was in no mood to appreciate the differences
> between a crowdsourced map project and a move-fast-and-break-things
> delivery startup.
>
> I discussed this with a friend of mine who owns a restaurant, and he
> recounted a similar story -- an angry customer calling the restaurant to
> complain about a late delivery. This restaurant doesn't do delivery, and
> has never partnered with any third parties for delivery. But a food
> delivery startup (I'm not naming names... actually I can't even keep
> them straight) apparently scouted their location, imported the menu
> (which changes often and is not posted on the web), and listed the
> restaurant as a delivery client -- all without even informing the
> restaurant, much less attempting to make any sort of agreement. They
> wouldn't even take down the listing when confronted -- figured they
> could just bully their way into a business relationship. And they were
> listing dishes that weren't even on the menu anymore! Though they took
> them all down quickly when the restaurant's lawyer called.
>
> Don't know how common these sort of predatory tactics are outside NYC,
> but fair warning, there may be businesses out there who are no longer
> delighted at the thought of someone "from the internet" taking notice of
> their publicly-posted information.
>
> Happy mapping, Jason
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
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>


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