[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival - registration discount expires 5/24/17

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango,

Colorado Tango Festival is almost here (May 23 - 29, 2017) and we are very
excited because it will be an amazing event with Pablo Pugliese and Noel
Strazza and Diego di Falco & Carolina Zokalski.  There is a 15% registration
discount happening now that will expire on 5/24/17.  This special flash
promotion is for dancers that wish to pick individual classes and study with
one or both of these incredible master teachers.

www.coloradotangofestival.com, use discount code BOWTRUCKLE

This discount applies to the milonga pass, but not to the individual ticket
for the Cheeseman Park milonga that you also may purchase on our website.
This ticket needs to be purchased in advance either from our website or
directly from Tango Colorado because state regulations do not allow ticket
purchases on site and you will need to present either a ticket or an email
confirmation in order to attend.

Pablo Pugliese & Noel Strazza will teach both beginner and
intermediate/advanced classes for Tango Colorado on Tuesday, May 23, 2017
and they will dance a demo around 9:15PM for the attendees of the TC
practica.  Diego and Carolina will teach both beginner and
intermediate/advanced class on Friday, May 26, 2017 at the Mercury Café.
Diego and Carolina will dance a performance on Friday at the Mercury Milonga
and Pablo and Noel will dance on Saturday at the Denver Turnverein.

Here is a link to our festival movie promotion. We hope it makes you smile.
https://www.facebook.com/522479441290293/videos/607722302766006/

All of Pablo and Noel's private lessons have been booked, but we can add you
to the wait list in case someone cancels.  There are no private lessons
available for Diego and Carolina because they will arrive on Friday.

Please let me know if you have any questions I may answer.  It will be a
wonderful festival!  Thank you for your enormous and enthusiastic support,
dancers.  We couldn't have done it without it.

Warmest regards,

Nina







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[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival (Denver), Memorial Day, May 23-29, 2017.

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango,

Only two days are remaining for the special discounted registration to
celebrate our festival.  It will expire on Sunday, April 16, 2017.  This
special promotion is designed for dancers that would like to take individual
classes instead of an entire weekend with one set of teachers, and may also
get a milonga pass with this promotion.  If you would like to take the
entire weekend with Pablo Pugliese and Noel Strazza, or with Diego di Falco
and Carolina Zokalski, please register after April 16, 2017, but do get your
milonga pass now so that you get most savings.  The registration page is:

https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/classes-with-pablo-noel/

The registration has two parts.  There is a general registration form that
lets us know a little bit about you and then there a payment that
automatically submits to us your selection of classes.  Please use code
NIFFLER at checkout to receive your discount.

Pablo Pugliese, Noel Strazza, Diego di Falco and Carolina Zokalski will be
teaching private lessons on Wednesday (5/24), Thursday (5/25) and Friday
(5/26).   Each master teacher will have his/her own private lesson schedule,
or you may request lessons with Pablo and Noel teaching together and with
Diego and Carolina.  The available private lesson hours are disappearing
quickly because many dancers will be coming to Denver, several days before
the Memorial Day weekend and they have been booking private lessons when
making their travel plans.  Please send us a request as soon as possible and
we will be in contact with you.  The link to request your private lesson (s)
and your preferred times and days is:

https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/private-lessons/

Please send me an email if you would like more information.  We hope to see
you at our wonderful festival in our beautiful city!

My warmest regards to every one of you,

Nina




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[Tango-L] DJ is needed

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, everyone,

We need a great DJ for one of our festival milongas at the Colorado Tango
Festival on Memoria Day weekend (May 26-28th).   This is a traditional
festival.  Please contact me directly if you are interested.  Thank you very
much!

My warmest regards,

Nina


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[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival (Mar 23-29, 2017) REGISTRATION Thunderbird Offer!

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, 

>From our hearts to yours, with gratitude and deep appreciation of every one
of you that is reading this message, we want to let you know that the
registration for the Colorado Tango Memorial Day Festival in Denver (May
23-29, 2017) is open with a THUNDERBIRD special - $65 milonga pass (all 6
minlongas), $150 entire weekend with one set of teachers, $70 Saturday with
one set of teachers, and $80 Sunday with one set of teachers!  This
incredible offer is intended to celebrate the opening of our new Festival in
Denver, Colorado.  It is valid until midnight (CST) March 17, 2017.  Please
take a look at the accommodations and resources, which we are adding every
day.  You may also request private lessons from the website.  Thank you,
friends, for your support!  It will be an incredible festival!

https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/

My warmest regards to every one of you,

Nina


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[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival - Memorial Day - May 23-29, 2017

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango,

Memorial Day Colorado Tango Festival is alive and well! (and new!)

Please spread the word, friends, so that dancers don't think accidentally
that it was cancelled.  Colorado Tango Festival is NOT former Denver
Memorial Day Festival.

Our legendary master teachers are Pablo Pugliese & Noel Strazza and Diego di
Falco & Carolina Zokalski.  There will be more than 20 hours of dancing in
the milongas.  The registration will open very soon with the Early Bird
Milonga pass that will be irresistible and a full weekend of classes that
will make even the most hardcore tango fanatic dinosaurs drool.  :-) I am
not kidding. We believe that many dancers have invested so much time and
money, and pure love of tango and their tango friends, over the last two
decades coming to the Memorial Day Tango Festivals in Denver that they
deserve a fantastic festival. The master teachers of our festival are
legends from long ago and their presence sets the tone of deep respect of
tango, its people (you) and its culture. www.coloradotangofestival.com

Instead of going home crying that tango is not the same, we decided to
create something fabulous.  We hope that you join us and have marvelous
time.  It will be wonderful to see old friends and meet new ones.

Our FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/Colorado-Tango-Festival-522479441290293/?pnref=lhc

Dancers Connect FB group for festival attendees:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1299032733450057/

Thank you!

Warmest regards,

Nina


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Re: [Tango-L] TEST

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Mary and others,

We have a very interesting group on FB - Tango Dinosaurs, Unite!

Many old-timers from pre-2001 are there.  Please join us!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/618027328229381/

Nina

-Original Message-
From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Mary Menz
Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:07 AM
To: jan bares; Tango-L@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TEST

Yes, I miss it.  I think it has been replaced by Facebook, yet Facebook does
not offer the discussion opportunities that Tango-L does.

On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:48 PM, jan bares  wrote:

> Is this list still operational? Where are the posts?
> J.
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Mary Menz




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[Tango-L] Tango in Spain?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Dancers,

Would anyone be able to recommend where to dance in Madrid in November?

Thank you!

Nina


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[Tango-L] urgent! virus alert

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango,

If you have received a private email from me in the past couple of days that
did not arrive through this list, but looks like it came directly from me,
delete it immediately.  It is a virus.  The tech people removed this virus
from my computer, but said that it was severe.   The tech people have virus
definitions and descriptions.  They said that this one takes attachments
from different computers and attaches them to whatever emails it can find
and randomly sends them around the world to other people's email addresses.
It is supposed to compromise any confidential attachments that you may have
in your emails, such as contracts, bank attachments, personal identifying
information on any document, etc.  People might receive an e-mail that looks
like it came from you with a document, with a virus attached, from a person
that you don't even know.  It is particularly important for persons that
send via e-mail semi-confidential information, such as invoices with account
information and addresses, etc.

This is new.  It has emerged in the past couple of days.  If your anti-virus
protection has been updated in the past day or so, or updates itself several
times a day automatically, then it should be able to catch it.  If you are
using Win 8, the only program that would catch it is the Defender.  Norton
and others are still in the testing phases of their upgrades for Win 8 and
the current versions are not compatible with it.  The tech people said to
tell both PC and Mac users to delete anything that looks like it has arrived
from me in the past two days.  Basically, please be extremely vigilant, even
if you are a Mac user, and please tighten your computer security.  This is a
new virus.  I am really sorry about this.

Thank you!

Kindest regards,

Nina

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[Tango-L] a beautiful video

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Dancers,

 

This is too beautiful not to share.  "The heart of the bandoneon never
dies."  Enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1dsME9C5o

 

Nina

 

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[Tango-L] "Tango Bar" has been found.

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dancers,

 

"Tango Bar" has been found on Youtube.  The full version is available at
http://youtu.be/a0DvITMs2wE.  Thank you, Helaine Treitman!

 

Thank you, everyone, who has replied!

 

Kindest regards,

 

Nina

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[Tango-L] Tango Dinosaurs, Unite!

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dancers,

 

I have been hanging with the youtube, thinking about the current state of 
tango, missing Club Almagro and the dancers that I knew that are no longer 
here.  I see new people coming to tango all the time.  Many are from the US, 
and many are from other cultures.  And many know nothing about tango!  Nothing 
about its history, its codes, its meaning or its people!  And I become very 
depressed when I encounter this state of tango being reduced to only movement …

 

So I decided to offer some action…    Because I am extremely fond of Facebook, 
I have created a page that is called “Tango Dinosaurs, Unite!”  Tango Dinosaurs 
know who were Portlea, Virulaso, Finito, Todaro!  You have seen Gavito dance 
and maybe even some of his shows in the late 1980s and early 1990’s.   And you 
have seen and experienced much more.  You have been hanging out in Buenos Aires 
since the 1980s or 1990s.  Every year you swear that you will never go back, 
and you never keep that promise.

 

I am looking for you!  We need to know about each other.  Please join the 
group, post videos, pictures, or anything else that is a part of your dance 
genesis from  that special era.  And I will feel most privileged to be among 
you.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/618027328229381/edit/

 

My warmest regards,

 

Nina

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[Tango-L] "Tango Bar" DVD?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dancers,

 

Does anyone know if the movie "Tango Bar" (with Raul Julia) was ever
released in DVD?  There are video clips on the youtube, but I have been
unsuccessful finding the entire film.  Thank you!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQb7JWpEVRo

&list=PLCC5360EA7FEADAD1

 

Kindest regards,

 

Nina

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[Tango-L] the legends

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dancers,

 

This video is a little treasure.   Some of you will remember this time.
Well, maybe the end of this epoch.  Enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE

 

Nina

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Re: [Tango-L] Tango quote from the 13th Century

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Nice post, Shahrukh.

In flamenco, the singer starts all music and rhythm.  The dancer follows the 
singer.  The guitarist follows the dancer.  When there is no singer, the 
dancer leads, changing the compass with the musicians following the dancer's 
lead.

So dancers are not always the last.  In tango, good musicians have always 
watched the dancers and, in a way, followed them.  The original tango 
singers blended in with the instruments of the orchestra, providing a 
punctuation with the synchopation of the poetry.  The later singers began to 
scream the lyrics, which I, personally, do not like.

So in the earlier tango, there was almost an equal fusion of the musicians, 
singers and dancers.

But flamenco, to me is very unique because of the complexity of the compass. 
The flamenco compass is the most difficult thing that I have ever 
encountered in music.

Thank you for a thought-inspiring post!

Warm regards,

Nina
www.NinaTango.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Shahrukh Merchant" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:27 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango quote from the 13th Century


> People outside Argentine (or perhaps outside the Rio de la Plata area)
> who "get into" Tango generally start learning and liking the dance, then
> start to recognize and like the music (which earlier sounded dated and
> old-fashioned).
>
> Then another slower transition, or rather evolution, occurs, where the
> preference starts to change from instrumental to vocal music. A very
> small percentage learn and listen to the words, a task understandably
> complicated by cultural references, and more so if one is not a native
> Spanish speaker.
>
> I saw a quote recently, written in the 13th century, that captured this
> phenomenon, and could well have been written for Tango, had it not
> predated Tango by about 700 years:
>
> "Dance is subordinate to the instrument and the instrument to song,
> therefore singing is considered fundamental by the knowledgeable."
>
> It is actually from the Sangeet Ratnakar (a treatise on Indian music
> written in the 13th century), as quoted by S. Kalidas in "India:
> Timeless Splendour."
>
> We dancers, it seems, have been put in our place: a distant third in a
> pecking order, behind the musicians, and way behind the poets.
>
> Shahrukh
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[Tango-L] Esther Pugliese is very ill - urgent help is needed.

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear Dancers,

Please forgive my clumsy writing.  I wanted to get this message out as 
quickly as possible.  I feel devastated and so I don't have many words.

I do not need to tell most of you about the Pugliese family - Mingo & 
Esther, and their son Pablo.  In 1995, when Pablo was 15 years old, he came 
to
the United States for the first time with his mother Esther to teach and 
perform.  He came with her because his father was unable to travel at that 
time.  After that, they had taught and perfomed many places in the world. 
Many of you in the United States know them from the days of the Stanford 
Tango Week.

Pablo & Esther (when Pablo was 11 years old):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktdMg_Mzs0w

Mingo & Esther recently: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoXe4bmeUEI&feature=related

The world of tango owes these people in a big way.  Tango would not have 
become as we know it without them.  The list of dancers they had taught
include great artists Pablo Veron, Fabian Salas and, of course, Pablo 
Pugliese, and many, many others.

This is a legendary family of tango dancers.  And now they urgently need our 
help.  Esther Pugliese is very ill.  I am including Pablo's letter to the 
world of tango.

Please help in any way you can, even the smallest possible.  Please send 
this information to your friends and contacts in the world of tango.  Pablo
is handling everything by himself.  His father is heart-broken and his 
sisters are in Buenos Aires, so Pablo is taking care of his mother and this 
situation alone, with the help of friends.

Here is the letter from Pablo (http://www.tangopal.com/cita.esther):

"Dear Tango Community, Colleagues and Friends,

I am reaching out to you because my family is going through an extremely 
difficult moment. My parents Esther and Mingo Pugliese, have been leaving in 
Italy (Pescara) for the last 5 years. On July 8th my mother was operated of 
a brain tumor and post operatory complications left her in a vegetative
state. At the moment she is in intensive care at a hospital in Popoli.

We are organizing a fund raising campaign all over the tango communities in 
the world. The only way of bringing her back to Argentina is with an
ambulance plane and this is our goal. Being able to bring her back to a 
hospital in Buenos Aires will also allow my 75 year old father to come back
to an environment that can contain him in this hard situation.

I am asking you, to spread the word and to participate in this campaign in 
any way that is possible for you. There is no little contribution at this
moment, anything that we can do together will mean a lot.

For those of you that had the chance to meet Esther or learn from her, she 
lives in every tango step that you or your tango teacher takes. For those of 
you that love Argentine Tango and know what she and my family did for this 
dance in the world, I ask you from the bottom of my heart to help. My family 
and I will be infinitely grateful.

My sister Marisa Pugliese and Gachy Fernandez are in charge of coordinating 
the effort, you can contact them directly at:
ml...@hotmail.com  and gach...@hotmail.com

To contribute direclty on line we had created a simbolic product that you 
can purchase at Tangopal website, please visit:
www.tangopal.com/catalog/129
You will find there all the explanations on how to proceed.

You can also deposit money in Buenos Aires at: (will be available soon).

We please ask you to spread the word with all your contacts and in case you 
wish to organize or participate in an event in behalf of the cause please
contact :

For events in Argentina: gach...@hotmail.com
In the rest of the world: pablopuglie...@gmail.com

Sincerely,
Pablo Pugliese"



Thank you, friends.

My warmest regards,

Nina
n...@earthnet.net
www.NinaTango.com
720-434-4342

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Re: [Tango-L] Cheryl Burke Forever Tango interviews

[Nina Pesochinsky]

A nightmare.  Tango is always sold, just like yoga has been, just like other 
profound disciplines of art and spirituality.  Tango is always at a point of 
it's lowest common denominator (Daniel Trenner said that a long time ago in 
relationship to on what level a couple dances).

Tango is exotic to all who don't understnad it.  It is sacred to all who do.


- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Littler" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cheryl Burke Forever Tango interviews


> At least she admits that before she trained with the Forever Tango cast
> for three months, that she really knew nothing about the dance. That
> should pique interest in those who liked her DWTS Tango performances -
> especially with Gilles Marini.
>
> El Stevito de Gainesville
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Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hi, all,

What makes tango tango is many voices in counterpoint, meaning that each 
voice has its own rhythm, but all are linked harmonically.  What also makes 
tango so recognizable is the synchopated phrasing, where even the singer is 
speaking in synchopation.  Other dance forms follow a single rhythm (both 
rumba an d cha-cha) without synchopation, which may be present with the 
instruments, depending on the arrangement, but which is not required to be 
danced.

I hope that this explanation adds to clarification and not to more 
confusion. :)

Warmest regards,

Nina




- Original Message - 
From: "Michael" 
To: "Nina Pesochinsky" ; "Tango-L" 
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip


> Sounds too fast for Rumba. Sounds more like Cha cha.
>
> Michael
> I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Nina Pesochinsky" 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
>
>
> Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :)  Common
> mistake...  Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a
> rumba.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" 
>> Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
>>
>>
>> This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with
>> Cher. Check it out.
>>
>> http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :)  Common 
mistake...  Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a 
rumba.


- Original Message - 
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" 
To: "Tango-L" 
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip


This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with 
Cher. Check it out.

http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/




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Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Amaury is right.  It is sad.

Tango is very simple.  It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace 
of two people.  But many people never look long enough into these simple 
things to see the beauty that they offer.  They don't see that no other 
invention is needed.

Best,

Nina


- Original Message - 
From: "Amaury de Siqueira" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops


The 'Walmartization' of Tango
MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world 
are a common sight today.
How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have 
become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with 
teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events.
Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some 
have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim 
invention of a complete new form of true AT.
How sad all this seems to be...




"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of 
all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a 
good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."



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Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, everyone.

Interesting discussion.

Is tango sensual?  It can be, but does not have to.

Is it passionate?  It can be, but does not have to, and does not need to be. 
It is difficult at times to participate in something sensual or passionate 
on cue.

I am convinced that this discussion and many others have been influenced by 
an absence of at least two factors.

First, it is important to understand that throughout the century of 
development of tango music and dance, women were valued much more than they 
are now.  Sorry ladies, but women are now dime a dozen and all are hungry to 
dance.  Those who know tango well as a dance, know that men created the 
movements to please the women.  The dance was created because of the women 
and for them and in no authentic movement of tango, salon, milonguero, 
fantasia, stage, etc., is the woman and her movement is secondary.

This factor is lost in the current tango experience of most.  The quantity 
of dancing women has devalued their presence for the men.  As a consequence, 
the social culture of the dance has sufferred.  Neither men nor women 
actually know experientially the emotional content of the dance at a time 
where women were not so available.

The second important factor to consider is not just that there were many 
European influences, but that tango actually belongs to the immigrant 
culture (of Argentina), which is much different than the pure influences of 
other, well-defined cultures.

Immigrants are different people, regardless where they came from.  They 
embrace and reject cultural values and rules according to different sets of 
perceptions.  Immigrant cultures remain illusive to those who do not belong 
to them.  Immigrants are a different kind of people, regardless from what 
country they came from.  They are different from those who remain in those 
countries.  I don't know if it is the psychological makeup, the personality 
or the emotional content that makes immigrants different, but they are very 
different.

We will never know what the immigrant culture of the time was in Argentina 
and we will never know what exactly were the perceptions.  But what is very 
clear in tango music and dance is that the immigrant culture allowed people 
tremendous creativity that may not have been nurtured by any one defined 
culture.  It is that creativity, that harmonious blend of many influences 
that we feel now, dancing again and again to the same recordings a thousand 
times.  These things cannot be taken apart.  The best that we can do is 
honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all.

All the best,

Nina



>> From: bettina maria fahlbusch 
>> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
>> To: Sergio Vandekier , Tango-L
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>>
 What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
>> 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
>> passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
>> danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
>> clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
>> of the elements that developed in Tango.
>>
>> Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
>> certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
>> originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
>> :-)
>>
>> What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
>> ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
>> massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
>> Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
>> the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
>> from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
>> beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
>> Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
>> in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation  in the upper
>> class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . ..  shown by the rich boys
>> who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
>> it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
>>
>> Sergio:
>>> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil.  The women in 
>>> the
>>> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create 
>>> the
>>> tango. They danced with their clients.
>>>
>>> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the 
>>> world
>>> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a 
>>> distinct
>>> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
>>
>>> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who 
>>> they
>>> are."
>> ___
>
>
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[Tango-L] Julio & Corina dancing milonga

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, dancers.

Here is a video of an incredible milonga danced by Julio Balmaceda and 
Corina de la Rosa in 2008.  Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GgiufIenm0&feature=related

Nina

You may find Nina at www.tangoledanza.com or on www.facebook.com. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

[Nina Pesochinsky]

This discussion reminds me of dancing with milongueros in 
1997-1998,  I do not recall even one time when a man had corrected me 
at a milonga, and I had danced only aout 2-3 years then and was a 
rank beginner.  What they did instead was magic - they lead a step 
again and again, until I got it and learned what I needed to 
do.  There was grace and infinite value in that because they gave me 
knowledge of the dance without using any words.  And they did not 
break the magic of the moment.

To me, there is some distasteful banality to all words, in any 
language that I understand.  Even poetry can't compare with music and 
dance.  Only languages that I do not understand have some 
music.  Maybe the question that each person should ask, when an idea 
pops into his/her head to correct someone during a dance, is whether 
he/she wants to be right or to be happy.  Do we value perfection over 
a feeling?

In all human interactions, and in tango in this case, it might be 
useful to do a quick cost/benefit analysis in any 
situation.  Impulsivity carries a very high cost.

All the best,

Nina





At 07:59 AM 2/23/2009, Sergey Kazachenko wrote:
>It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
>know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
>or just dance?"
>If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
>dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
>plan B ready!
>Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
>dance" is the only option.
>
>Sergey
>May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
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Re: [Tango-L] Nomenclature: Clarification of terms, Part 2

[Nina Pesochinsky]

This might work, as long as no one leaves any body parts behind.:)

Nina






Quoting Brian Dunn :

> Dear list,
>
> Here's another terms-clarification attempt, submitted for your approval ;):
>
> Clarification: LEAD WITH xxx (arms/frame/chest/other part of leader's
> anatomy)
> In our experience, by choosing to use the phrase "lead with (xxx)" in a
> teaching context, we have already made some assumptions, and reinforced a
> particular perspective on tango events, which has noticeable consequences
> for our connection to our partner, and for our tango experience in general.
> Because of this, it can be interesting and useful to re-examine those
> assumptions and consequences, and reconsider our use of the phrase.
>
> If we consider the idea "What does the leader lead with?", we see we're
> talking about the leader DOING something with part of HIS body.  By framing
> the problem as "what does the leader DO to lead?", the answer would seem to
> be that the leader engages in a movement or series of movements using
> various leader body part(s).  Of course, thinking of it this way can "work",
> and many people have trained themselves to think of the problem of leading
> this way.  But like the previous clarification of "lead", I'd say this
> perspective is sufficient but not necessary for many tango ideas, and in
> many other cases, actually creates unnecessary obstacles in the way of the
> tango experience by diminishing the follower's sensation of the connection
> with her leader.
>
> One side-effect of this perspective is that the leader's attention is
> REMOVED from the follower's body and focused on the leader's body while this
> movement or movements of the leader's "leading code" is being executed. Once
> this attention-removal is practiced often enough, it becomes a habit of mind
> to remove attention from the follower's body into the leader's body in order
> to initiate ANYTHING in the lead/follow tango conversation. Followers tend
> to experience this attention-removal as a lessening of the sensation of
> tango connection. While this can be overcome by unlearning this habit of
> mind, many leaders never get that far in their tango careers.
>
> We found it is possible to bypass many problems in learning tango
> communication by reframing many tango communication situations in terms of
> the follower's body exclusively. We do this for many tango ideas by focusing
> on having the leader keep his/her attention relentlessly fixed on what the
> follower's body should do, rather than taking an "attention detour" back
> into the leader's body at all.  The leader's body then actually follows
> along without much focused attention, as long as the follower's body is
> taken care of.
>
> As peculiar as this may sound, it works very well in practice.  Beginners
> prove to each other in the first class that they are all possessed of bodies
> that are exquisitely sensitive perceiving devices, able to send and receive
> mysterious information flows in ways difficult to explain, but easy to
> experience.  Based on our results, by training these "attention habits" into
> beginning leaders early on, the lead/follow communication is greatly
> improved compared to the "what does the leader do" or "what does the leader
> lead with" perspective.
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> 775 Pleasant Street
> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
> 303-938-0716
> www.danceoftheheart.com
> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>
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>



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Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics

[Nina Pesochinsky]

If you really want to know about Petroleo and his contribution to 
tango, talk to Mingo Pugliese the next time you are in BsAs.  He and 
Esther have carried his legacy through the decades.  (444 Cochabamba 
was a legendary place for many years, where Mingo had his amazing 
practica).  The cross for the woman and the turns as we know them 
9with sacadas and entradas) owe much to Petroleo for their existence.

Vince, why don't you go and study the Tango-L archives?  You might 
really enjoy the posts and get many answers to frequently asked questions.:)

Best,

Nina


At 06:21 PM 12/2/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Vince said:
> > So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this
> > all happen?
>
>That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself
>thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely
>someone worth researching.
>
>See:
>
>- http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp
>
>- http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
>
>He danced from 1928-1988.
>
>I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the
>1940s, but I don't know really know the dates.
>
>I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the
>moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a
>performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a
>produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica,
>where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come
>from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send
>me the link I will be grateful.)
>
>Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't
>know.
>
>In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who
>said that (paraphrasing) "everything we dance today was started by
>Petroleo." The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a
>regional tango they are talking about.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

[Nina Pesochinsky]

If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and 
evolving tango, they should stop calling it "Argentine" and call it 
something else instead, like "no longer Argentine tango", or 
something like that.

The ballroom dancers that took tango, cleaned it up and made it their 
own at least had the decency to be honest about it and gave it its 
own name - American or European tango, instead of claiming that it 
continues to be Argentine tango, only  new and improved.

Maybe Argentine tango can be distinguished in all of its 
manifestations by labeling the version - do you dance Argentine tango 
1.0 (tango antiguo) or 10.1 (never been to Argentina ) version? :)

Nina


At 12:01 AM 11/25/2008, Vince Bagusauskas wrote:


>-Original Message-
>From: Tango Society of Central Illinois [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:14 PM
>To: Vince Bagusauskas
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tango-L
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
>
>On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
> > I would add:
> >
> > Changes in culture in Argentina itself
>
> >Please be specific. Tango social dance culture has had incredibly
>consistency over time.
>
>
>Disagree. Fact the culture of Argentina has changed, therefore that will
>have an influence on how tango is danced.
>
>
>
> > Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures
>
> >Affects part of Argentine tango culture that caters to tourists, much
>less so that part of tango culture that attracts porten~os.
>
>Not all tango dancers are tourists and/or have been to BA.  Therefore how
>tango is danced in that culture is a reflection of that culture.
>
>
> > A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> > Argentineans)
>
> >How many of these are there? Maybe the ones who don't dance tango,
>
>
>I have spoken to young Argentininas who have danced tango since they are
>babies (virtually) and go to many milongas in BA and see how the youngers
>dance, dress and behave.
>
>
> >instead dance salsa. Even nuevo dancers in or from Buenos Aires dance
>mostly to traditional (30s-50s) tango music.
>
>But not in all cultures!  See above.
>
>
> > -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> > -nuevo
>
> >Danced mainly in Villa Malcolm, Practica X.
>
>Your point?  This would never have been done in the Golden Age.  So the
>influence of this will have an impact.
>
>
> > Women wanting to lead
> > Gay tango
>
> >Yes, in gay milongas (La Marshal the only one to persist). Same sex
>partners or sex reversed partners are almost non-existent in Buenos
>Aires outside gay milongas.
>
>So?   Happens a lot in other cultures.
>
>
> >Most of these changes in tango are occurring outside Argentina, where
>dancers modify tango to their own cultural norms. At some point of
>change, it is no longer Argentine tango.
>
>
>Your desire is that real Argentinian Tango must be rooted in the Golden Age.
>The point of this post is has tango evolved?
>
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Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Vince is right.  Those are the big changes and they result in the  
changes in tango.

And I would add (with lots of sarcasm and disappointment:):
- bad dancing (like leading a beginner woman that barely learned to  
walk in tango to do a volcada).  In the past, men would never allow  
themselves to be seen by women as failures in tango, so they would not  
dare to try something that would most definitely fail, either to their  
own or the woman's lack of skills.
- lack of polite, socially acceptable behavior - How about saying  
hello and goodbye?  It helps the quantity and quality of dancing.  In  
the past, if you forgot to say hello to someone you dance with in  
BsAs, that person would not dance with you for three months.   
Offending people is nmot a good idea, but now people do it all the time.
- high anxiety and fear about not-dancing at events.
- lack of knowledge and/or understanding of music.
- lack of standards (anything goes).
- changes in values (feeling vs. non-feeling technique, etc.).
I need to stop here or I will start complaining!:)

Tango reflects the people that dance it.  Just look at the people of  
different eras (in BsAs) - what they talk about, how they dress, how  
they dance. how they treat each other in the milongas - and the  
evolution of tango becomes revealed.

All the best,

Nina



Quoting Vince Bagusauskas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I would add:
>
> Changes in culture in Argentina itself
> Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures
> A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> Argentineans)
> -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> -nuevo
> Women wanting to lead
> Gay tango
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:13 AM
> To: Tango-L
> Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
>
> So what has prompted tango to evolve in the past?  Women's fashion changes.
> Changes in the music.  Space limitations.  Changes in teaching methods.
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose

[Nina Pesochinsky]

True enough, Randy.

Sometimes it is a true grace when some people do not want to dance  
with you or me or others. Just because someone happens to dance tango  
does not mean that it is their best social talent.

One of the dancers in our dance company said that when she was  
training in ballet, one of her teachers told some girls that they  
should learn to cook and get a husband, because they will never dance.:)

It is important to recognize people's talents.  Sometimes it is  
conversation and not tango.  Sometimes it is neither tango nor  
conversation, but playing chess.  Sometimes if you have really good  
conversations with someone, it might be best not to dance with them  
because it might ruin the conversation.

I think that it is very useful for all tango dancers to learn  
something else to do other than dance that they can do together.   
Singing is useful because with some people in the milongas you can  
sing along and don't need to dance.

Drinking champaign to tango music is another option.  Afterwards, it  
feels as if you had danced together:)

My point is that tango, and being in the milongas, is much more than  
just dancing.  The social universe of tango is immense.  In BsAs,  
there are people whom I have known for many years in the milongas,  
with whom I always chat and catch up, and with whom I have never  
danced and probably will never dance.  And yet, these tango friends  
are no less valuable than the people we dance with.  I also have met  
lovely people, whose company I had enjoyed immensely, with whom I  
finally danced.  Afterwards, I wish I didn't.  Dancing was bleak by  
comparison with a sparkling conversations that we have had.

So when people don't want to dance with you, maybe it is an  
opportunity to discover something else that is interesting about them.

In BsAs, this is easy because people hang out in the milongas for  
hours.  In the US, people are anxious to either dance or go home, and  
hanging out together does not seem to be a priority.

Not dancing can be both a tragedy and a blessing. You have to choose  
which it is moment by moment:)

All the best,

Nina



Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

> A wise friend once said 'why would you want to dance with someone  
> who doesn't want to dance with you?' We are better off concentrating  
> on those who do want to dance with us.
>


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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes

[Nina Pesochinsky]

So maybe a good cortina for some of the milongas outside of BsAs could  
be a great song by the Doors "People are Strange":)

"People are strange
When you're a stranger,
Faces look ugly
when you're alone.
Women are wicked
when you're unwanted,
streets are unhaven
when you're down.
When faces come out of the rain
When you strange
No one remembers your name
When you strange."


Quoting Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>     They don't come any 'stranger' than you, Jack.
>  
> " One thing we agree on is that Tango does seem to attract some  
> very, very strange people.
> Certainly far more than the law of averages would suggest.
> I have no idea why."  - Strange Jack
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Cliff, you are right!

Best,

Nina


At 08:24 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
>Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar.
>Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is
>amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked
>at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it
>because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor?
>Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so
>which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it
>from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true
>Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that
>"only Argentines" can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to
>back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is
>putting everyone else down.
>
>Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see
>your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 "true" tangos is your
>specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't
>that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really
>special and back lead?
>
>Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of
>dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom
>and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as
>you has a book in the offing.
>
>Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know,
>they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am
>sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough.
>
>Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun.
>
>Clif
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>Clif,
>
>Nausea is a good thing.  It tells you that there might be something
>to look at inside yourself that might need your attention.  Perhaps
>the envy of the divine?:)
>
>I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They
>pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
>can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and
>know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
>it.   It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as
>good as Argentines, or even better!".  At what?  Moves?  Yes, of
>course!  Feeling?  No.  Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the
>BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the
>evidence.   The quality of these milongas is distinctly different
>from milongas where only Argentines are present, without
>exceptions.  The quality of dance is difference also.
>
>Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept
>their inferiorities.  I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will
>never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.
>
>BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers'
>should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)
>
>Best,
>
>Nina
>
>
>At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
> >I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
> >become nauseated.
> >Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
> >
> >Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
> >dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
> >for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
> >not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
> >dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
> >
> >The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
> >None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their
>style
> >as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
> >
> >Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
> >bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
> >with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
> >
> >Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
> >anyone in Argentina.
> >
> >Clif, from China.
> >
> >
> >___
> >

Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Clif,

Nausea is a good thing.  It tells you that there might be something 
to look at inside yourself that might need your attention.  Perhaps 
the envy of the divine?:)

I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They 
pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and 
can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and 
know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about 
it.   It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as 
good as Argentines, or even better!".  At what?  Moves?  Yes, of 
course!  Feeling?  No.  Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the 
BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the 
evidence.   The quality of these milongas is distinctly different 
from milongas where only Argentines are present, without 
exceptions.  The quality of dance is difference also.

Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept 
their inferiorities.  I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will 
never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.

BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers' 
should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)

Best,

Nina


At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
>I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
>become nauseated.
>Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
>
>Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
>dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
>for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
>not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
>dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
>
>The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
>None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style
>as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
>
>Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
>bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
>with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
>
>Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
>anyone in Argentina.
>
>Clif, from China.
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

[Nina Pesochinsky]

It doesn't really matter what people are 
teaching.  It is much more important what people 
are learning.  If the teacher is teaching really 
good stuff, but the people are trapped in their 
bodies and can't make it move (meaning they are 
not controlling their bodies but their bodies are 
controlling them), nothing will help other than 
some coordination training away from tango.  Soccer might be good.

What makes someone a good dancer?  The right 
attitude!  Foreigners don't have it. (Sorry, 
folks...)  Yup, black and white 
generalization.  Exceptions are not important for 
this discussion.The simplre reason that the 
foreigners don't have the right attitude (in 
their own land or in BsAs) is that they have 
different expectations of their tango experience 
than the Argentines do.  That's why many 
Argentine dancers that don't have as a refined 
technique as some foregners do, are much better dancers.

Fourteen years ago, tango nuevo was called 
nuevo.  So what could be another alternative name 
for "tango nuevo" that is not "nuevo" 
anymore?  When does the term "nuevo" expire?  It 
is not quite old yet, or antique, just a little 
worn :)  Maybe now, after so many years, it 
should be called "tango nuevo polvoriento".  That 
would free up the term "tango nuevo" for something really new.

Nina

At 10:23 PM 11/6/2008, marquerito tjanos wrote:
>interesting observation. i just want to add my 
>10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are 
>drawn to tango these days. as larry has 
>observed, though some of them are drawn to tango 
>nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the 
>golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X 
>and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more 
>than 90% i would say) of young people, they 
>enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways 
>they dance their tango are very varied too. some 
>open embrace, some close embrace, some 
>milonguero style. but if you look at the large 
>successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso, 
>Escuela at Galeria Pacifico, most of the 
>teachers are just teaching good solid tango, 
>good technique, good postures etc. and aurora 
>lubiz is a great teacher! M ÂFind your 
>perfect match today at the new Yahoo!7 Dating. 
>Get Started 
>http://au.dating.yahoo.com/?cid=53151&pid=1012 
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Re: [Tango-L] tango rejection

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Cabeceo works even from 3 feet away.  Even in the dark.  The fewer 
words the better.

What happened with people's manners?!  Why is it that we all knew 
over a decade ago that if you turn someone down for a tanda in an 
obvious way, you do not dance that tanda?!

I think that the manners went to hell because Daniel Trenner stopped 
travelling and teaching all over the United States.  He taught the 
most proper codes of conduct, so that when foreigners came to dance 
in Buenos Aires, they would know how to behave appropriately.

Nina



At 01:03 PM 9/30/2008, Nussbaum, Martin wrote:

>I guess I am a luddite, i use the cabaceo whenever possible, hoping to
>spread this wonderful custom.  Occasionally I will resort to verbal
>invite, and usually regret it. When a woman rejects my invite  with a
>one word no or shake of her head, but within 5 seconds leaps up to dance
>with the latest argentine long-haired poor- postured neo- tango import
>on sale,  I will ask her again as soon as the following two conditions
>occur:   pigs fly,  and hell freezes over.  One of those is
>insufficient; if both of those conditions occur,  I will gladly ask her
>again.
>
>Use the cabaceo. It works. ( If you can see it.)
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Social rejection

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Trini,

I think that the most efficient way to help people/students deal with  
dance, rejection, fear of failure/performance, etc. is to hand them a  
book "The Four Agreements"  the moment they enter a beginner tango  
class for the first time. Give them four days to read it and then give  
them a short quiz.  If they pass, let them into the class. One of the  
agreements is "Take nothing personally".

Haven't tried that yet, but it might work. :)

Nina






Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Nina Pesochinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The important thing to remember is that we do not always know
>> what might trigger the other person.
>
> You're right, Nina, and although I appreciate your sensitivity   
> toward others, I do not espouse taking responsibility for another's   
> emotional response.  In fact, what we might think of as possibly   
> triggering pain for someone else, might do the exact opposite.
> There've been quite a few times, when I've had to be very direct   
> with people, knew I had caused them pain, but also was thanked by   
> them later for doing what I did.
>
> For some of my students, there's a process I think of as "cutting   
> the apron strings" or "pushing them out of the nest".  I'm sure   
> others have to do this, too.  It's a phase for beginners who begin   
> to demonstrate overdependence on their teachers or have difficulty   
> separating professional responsibilities from personal friendships.   
>  Basically, it's having to turn them down if they ask me to dance at  
>  a milonga or to help them work on something at a practice (and  
> there  are others that they can work with instead).  I know why  
> they're  asking - because it's easier for them to work/dance with me  
> that  with other people.  But I also know that that is not always  
> good for  their tango development for me to always say "yes".  And  
> certainly  not good for me to feel smothered.
>
> What I've learned to do to make rejection easier is to simply avoid   
> prolonged eye contact.  So I'll look at someone initially and even   
> engage in conversation, but my eyes will be directed mainly at the   
> dance floor.  Basically, I'll look as if I am pre-occupied studying   
> others (which is usually true, anyway).  So when a rejection comes,   
> it doesn't come off as being against them but more about my having   
> other things on my mind.
>
> The other side to this is to also let people know that they are   
> going to make mistakes, that Rome wasn't built in a day, and that   
> there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced.  And if they don't   
> build up their expectations unrealistically, then rejection isn't as  
>  painful as it would otherwise be.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Social rejection

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hi, Tine and everyone,

I can't prescribe ways of making rejection less painful in tango.  I 
can only aspire to bring some awareness.  It is important that each 
person decides for himself/herself how to use any information on this 
subject.  Those who truly want to avoid causing unnecessary pain, 
will develop their own strategies and their own unique styles of communication.

We can look at what hurts people in tango as dance rejection.  It 
could be many things - not being asked, not being asked by people who 
used to ask, not being asked by specific people one wants to dance 
with, verbally and non-verbally saying "no", avoiding to the point of 
a showing clear intention not to dance with a person, etc.  The 
important thing to remember is that we do not always know what might 
trigger the other person.

In regard to rejection in tango, I like looking at the proper 
boundaries of each situation.  There are things that we can control 
and things that we cannot.  It is helpful to know that difference 
within the unique context of each situation.  If one can say a polite 
and warm hello instead of dancing and keep moving, it is one 
thing.  If one is cornered into a verbal exchange and has to say 
"no", that is a completely different situation.

The other thing to look at is values.  I know several women that 
continue to dance with men they hate dancing with.  When asked why 
they do so, the answer is the same from all of them - they don't want 
to hurt anyone's feelings.  To these women, the pain of hurting 
someone's feelings is greater than the pain of dancing with 
them.  This is important to know.  It is about what each person 
values.  This touches on the very core of who the person is.

I think that how good a person is with himself/herself also 
determines how graceful and less painful their rejection can be.  I 
like to make a distinction between who the people are vs. their 
behavior/conduct.  In tango, as in all relationships (I hate this 
word), it is much better to reject a person's dancing, but not the 
person.  This requires charm.

Rejection is unavoidable.  What makes a difference is how it is 
delivered.  If you remember that each grown up person is just a kid 
in a big body, you will know how to make your choices in a kinder way.

My very best regards,

Nina

At 09:01 AM 9/29/2008, you wrote:
>Hi Nina,
>Could you elaborate to the list on the ways to make rejection less 
>painful in tango?
>Thank you
>Tine
>
>On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Nina Pesochinsky 
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello, everyone,
>
>I received a few private replies arguing that "rejection in tango is
>OK, just like anything else in life".  To set things straight - just
>because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK.
>
>Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of
>social rejection.  She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map
>the brain's response to rejection.  Her research has shown that
>social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical
>pain.  He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has
>published extensively since then on this topic.  If you have access
>to an academic online library, you should be able to access her
>publications fairly easily.  Very elegant research.
>
>There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for
>tango.  There are ways to handle things without provoking the
>feelings of social rejection in people.  There are also remedies to
>make things better should painful social interaction occur.
>
>We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid
>inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might
>do that.  Awareness is important.
>
>Best,
>
>Nina
>
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[Tango-L] Social rejection

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, everyone,

I received a few private replies arguing that "rejection in tango is 
OK, just like anything else in life".  To set things straight - just 
because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK.

Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of 
social rejection.  She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map 
the brain's response to rejection.  Her research has shown that 
social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical 
pain.  He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has 
published extensively since then on this topic.  If you have access 
to an academic online library, you should be able to access her 
publications fairly easily.  Very elegant research.

There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for 
tango.  There are ways to handle things without provoking the 
feelings of social rejection in people.  There are also remedies to 
make things better should painful social interaction occur.

We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid 
inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might 
do that.  Awareness is important.

Best,

Nina 

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Re: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question

[Nina Pesochinsky]

I have asked this question before - who do you dance with, folks?  Do 
you dance with people or with their tango abilities?

Personally, I dance with people.  If I like the person, and his 
technique has suddenly deteriorated for some mysterious reason, such 
as a spell of some tango sorcerer in Siberia, I would certainly 
attempt to remove the spell.

Tango technique is a fluid thing - it can be restored and 
reconstructed.  In tango, as in all dance, some days are better than 
others.  Some days, there is axis and other days it is on vacation 
some place.  Some days, the body does what it is supposed to and 
other days it decides to do its own thing and no amount of arguing 
can change anything.  Somehow we push through those moments and dance 
works out.

But a person can be destroyed by rejection.  Tango trauma is a serious thing.

One of the biggest problems with assumptions in all aspects of life 
is attribution.  We often attribute incorrectly.  Michael said that 
the woman's tension was from dancing with men that don't have good 
technique.  But maybe she had a stressful day instead.  There is no 
linear cause and effect in human experience or behavior.

Tango accepts people as they are, with all their feelings.  In Buenos 
Aires, that is still the beauty of the experience - you are expected 
to dance your feelings, whatever they may be that day.  There is 
freedom in that and integrity.

All the best,

Nina



At 09:12 PM 9/28/2008, Michael wrote:
>Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with 
>good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer 
>into one message.
>
>1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a 
>practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because 
>her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling 
>and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced 
>much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men 
>who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She 
>absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her 
>dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her.
>
>Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is 
>better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody 
>makes the decision for themselves.
>
>2) Refusing a lead
>There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY 
>Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead 
>because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they 
>threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm 
>downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other 
>type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at 
>the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) 
>called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so 
>she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what 
>was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the 
>woman talks, the man has to listen.
>
>
>Michael
>Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>- Original Message -
>From: "Ilene Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught
>
>
>I once asked a very good, very well known dancer  why he didn't dance with
>me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing 
>with...some of them
>are not very good and they don't make you look very good.  If I dance
>with you next, it makes me look bad..."
>
>
>Jack Dylan wrote:
>
>It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not 
>good dancers but with women who agree
>to dance with men who are not good dancers.
>
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Re: [Tango-L] (over)explained tango

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Thank you, Larry.  This is a great explanation.

Warm regards,

Nina


At 10:32 PM 9/25/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Nina Pesochinsky wrote ---> So what is the value of an 
>over-explained tango?
>
>One or two people seemed to take this as a put-down of some sort. I 
>thought it
>funny: a clever play on the words that David Thorn had just used, when he was
>talking about an over-turned ocho (one that turns more than 180 
>degrees) forced
>on him by a lady who stepped closer to him on the second half of the 
>ocho than
>he was expecting.
>
>Or, reading her later response, I wondered if it was a question as 
>well. As in
>"What is the fuss all about? Why are you spending so many words on 
>an evanescent
>experience?"
>
>OK. I'll answer the question.
>
>As often happens, there are several forces working in the long 
>detailed analyses
>of various subjects such as those you sometimes see on this list. Why
>(over)explain?
>
>For some people it's simply fun, a sort of game.
>
>For others, it's an attempt to help others on a subject they have mastered.
>Which often has the side benefit that the explanations force they 
>themselves to
>re-think the subject, and to see it in a new (hopefully clearer!) light.
>
>For some it's the second part of that process, the clarifying of a subject to
>themselves, that is the reason for a discussion.
>
>And finally explaining can also be exhibitionism - look at me aren't I clever!
>
>In other venues I've seen or heard people argue that explaining psychological
>phenomena is either useless or destroys the phenomena being discussed. For
>instance, they urge you not to discuss love. Or enjoyment of a sunset. Or the
>almost (or actually) transcendent experience of a dance.
>
>What they don't understand is that "left-brain" analytical and "right-brain"
>intuitive thinking are not enemies, any more than our left arms and hands are
>enemies of our right arms and hands. They work together - or should. A person
>with a strong left arm/brain AND a strong right arm/brain is MUCH 
>more effective
>than if they must fumble along using one side or the other.
>
>The best scientists and engineers are not only technically expert 
>but also very
>creative. This often shows up in their hobbies, such as painting or 
>playing or
>even composing music - and dancing.
>
>And the best artists are invariably experts in the technical side of 
>their art.
>Painters, for instance, typically have exhaustively studied such subjects as
>perspective and shadows and the effects several colors in a scene will
>synergistically effect the experience of the viewer. They will spend hours
>trying out a new set of paintbrushes and paints, learning their 
>idiosyncracies.
>They may endlessly paint the same scene over and over again with tiny
>variations, and spend much thought on why some variations succeed or fail.
>
>So it is with dance. There are stages or phases to becoming good, 
>and to having
>those transcendent experiences. One is learning the very basics, 
>such as how to
>place one's foot when stepping: heel, toe, and midsole, which leads when, how
>much force to use, how to move the body from station to station of a 
>position.
>Which is both a physical and an intellectual process. These 
>activities you do in
>classes and practicas.
>
>Then you revisit those basics, but this time in the midst of a 
>dance, when the
>virtue of all that practice and analysis pays off - by letting your body and
>your subconscious handle the details, letting you forget the basics, 
>while your
>consciousness floats upon and above those earthly concerns. And you simply DO.
>
>
>Larry de Los Angeles
>http://shapechangers.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
>Click to find out what your future holds.
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOol4Tm1VvpgUg7HuDWEgwls3semkJx6J7xgO2nAZylv7W6/
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Alexis,

Sorry that my question has made you a bit defensive.   Assumptions 
are dangerous and misleading. I was not whining about anything.  I 
also was not sensoring the types of posts.

And... Larry has answered my question.

Best,

Nina


At 04:36 AM 9/26/2008, Alexis Cousein wrote:
>Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>>So what am I missing here?  What is the value of an explanation of
>>movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated?
>
>Learning for others' experience? Perhaps trying to understand how others
>dance, feel, behave, so that I can try to better understand it as
>well (or even -- sacrilege! -- try something else /begin{sarcasm}
>than the Perfect and Obviously Only Correct Way to Dance Tango,
>which is naturally the way I'm dancing it right now /end{sarcasm})?
>
>What am I missing here? Why on earth are you on a mailing list
>for tango discussions whinging about why it's ohso futile to discuss
>tango? Why can't you just hit the delete button? Why do *you* consider
>it on-topic and valuable to others to whinge about whether the posts
>on this list are the exact type of posts you'd like the list to have?
>
>--
>Alexis Cousein  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
>--
>

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Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Thank you so much for your encouragement about the delete key. It is a  
lovely feature and I have practiced using it over the years with such  
enthusiasm that I dislocated a finger.

However, I was not complaining about the useless posts.  Instead, I  
asked a question about something that people seem to value.  I would  
like to know what is valuable in extreme analysis of transitory  
experiences.



Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're   
> free to use your delete key.
>
> --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know how you know my regular partner's
>> skill level.
>> I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with
>> clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead.
>> If I don't open the door for her to choose to over
>> rotate, she doesn't do it.
>> If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back
>> sacada, she doesn't do it.
>> And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead,
>> which suggestion I may accept or not.
>> But generally I do because I find that level of
>> conversation to be a very fun part of the dance.
>>
>> The point of my post was to provide a simple example to
>> Mario of a different form
>> of interaction than the "I talk and you listen
>> one" that is often presented.
>>
>
> Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the   
> day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for  
>  the rest of the day.
>
> If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is  
>  of the "I talk and you listen" variety - only she's the one doing   
> most of the talking.  However, your current example is exactly what   
> I'm talking about as a good thing.   In other words, you previously   
> presented your partner in a bad light.  Glad to hear that you are   
> not a wuss.
>
> Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes.
>
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> P.S. to Alexis:  The average intermediate woman prefer to work on   
> their embellishments instead of their musicality.  I will often hear  
>  intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to   
> concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women   
> professing the same thing.  Women ask me all the time to teach them   
> some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their   
> syncopas.  The guys do, though.  Instead, lots of women seem to   
> think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't   
> walk the talk when it comes music.  The good dancers, of course,   
> work on everything.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist

[Nina Pesochinsky]

My question was not a rhetorical one.  What is the value?  David's  
tango is what it is no matter what anyone thinks about it.  He feels  
compelled to explain it over and over again.  At the end, his tango is  
what it is and everyone else's as well.

So what is the value of extensive explanations!  Tango is a dance, and  
,as such, is a transitory experience.  So whatever ochos or movements  
that are being discussed, they no longer exist and probably cannot be  
repeated.

So what am I missing here?  What is the value of an explanation of  
movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated?  If it is a  
technical issue, then it could be just worked out in class.  But what  
is the value of the verbal explanation?  Please let me know because I  
am not getting it.

Nina




Quoting Huck Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Quoting Alexis Cousein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So what is the value of an over-explained tango?
>>>
>>> Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list
>>> discussing a dance?
>>
>> Good question, Alexis!  Over-explanation or discussion of any
>> experience can only go so far.  And at the end, it is still what it
>> is, isn't it?
>
>  I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting
> around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than
> simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill.  But
> this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express
> purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that
> it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very
> premise of the mailing list.
>
> Huck
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Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Good question, Alexis!  Over-explanation or discussion of any  
experience can only go so far.  And at the end, it is still what it  
is, isn't it?



Quoting Alexis Cousein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>> So what is the value of an over-explained tango?
>>
> Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list
> discussing a dance?




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Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist

[Nina Pesochinsky]

So what is the value of an over-explained tango?




Quoting David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> I would Mario wrote:
>>> love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even   
>>> Chichi Fromboli
>>>  doesn't do this..he leads and she follows..
>
> In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes:
>
> Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as   
> contributions to musicality are certainly part of this.
> But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to.
> Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my
> regular partner & I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety,   
> in close embrace.  And yes, probably 60% of the
> time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that.
>
> Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her   
> left).  My lead indicates the degree to
> which rotates.  I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to   
> side and we make no progress LOD? etc.
> As she rotates I step to my right to "receive the ocho", but I give   
> the lead indication for her to step prior to my
> stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to   
> mine.)  Spose that she sees that the floor
> behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten   
> to!!!) and wants to play a little.  She might
> over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to   
> actually be counter LOD.  She has even been
> known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I  
>  step to receive her ocho.  Yes, that TOTALLY
> breaks frame, but so what?  I am however compelled to deal with it,   
> for example by leading her to subsequently
> pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot.  Now  
>  we are back in the embrace, but facing counter
> LOD.  I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD.  etc.
>
> Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this:  I lead,   
> she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and
> then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
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Re: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat an Argentine custom

[Nina Pesochinsky]

When women are very young, they want men to talk to them.  It is the  
only way they know how to connect.  This is "female".  Girls are not  
only born that way, but also socialized.  When women mature, some  
loose their attraction to talk because they have heard a lot and not  
much is new.  They also have other ways of recognizing the meaning of  
various interactions and their importance.

It is very interesting to see and hear adolescent boys talk about the  
girls they like - they are not eager to talk to them.  Instead, they  
are happy to see them, even from a distance.  They know that they need  
to talk to her, if they have any intentions of asking her out, but  
seeing the girl seems much more important.

I am always amazed at how the boy-girl interaction repeats itself in a  
man-woman interaction in tango. Watching the people in the milongas  
internationally for years, I have observed that the moment the dance  
stops, the women's mouths begin to move.  Some never stop.  They sit  
down and don't stop talking.  It is easy to chat when the dance  
experience is simply pleasant and inconsequential.  The words don't  
happen when it is something else.

But the chit-chat also can help people feel safe - from each other,  
from themselves.

There is an old saying - "Men love with their eyes, and women love  
with their ears."  In my experience living in Argentina, the men of  
that culture know this little piece of wisdom.

Best,

Nina

> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
>> It was said:
>>
>> "What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was   
>> that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl   
>> with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been   
>> proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a   
>> chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and   
>> how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to knowa young,   
>> proper, woman, and to impress her. "
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, everyone,

Gender imbalance and other explanations do not justify bad behavior.

What Nancy had described *is* bad behavior.  It shows poor boundaries,  
impulsivity and agression - all in service of getting what people  
want. This is the "stuff" that people carry with themselves in their  
lives.  This is how they have learned to get what they want.

To avoid having people's "stuff" spill out in the milongas, there are  
rules of conduct.  Argentines, just like everyone else, have their  
"stuff".  However, when they show up at the milongas, the rules  
provide the boundaries and guidelines for those individuals for whom  
their own boundaries are lacking.

The codes of the milongas protect everyone from some people's bad  
behavior.  The traditional codes are beautiful because they help  
people behave better than they might on their own.

Best,

Nina


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Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Thank you, David.

But...  I only said what I want.  I said nothing about sharing 
anything :)  I offer nothing, share nothing, promise nothing.  It 
could be a dark place of no return... an abyss  of tango...

Many have perished from wrong assumptions.

Be careful.

Nina


At 12:08 AM 8/20/2008, David Hodgson wrote:
>Nina;
>This is beautiful and honest.
>I owe you a tanda,,, because.
>
>David
>
>PS: The same goes for me dancing with a woman.
>It is what they offer and share, also how they offer and share in the dance.
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:48 PM
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?
>
>And, gentlemen...
>
>Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular,
>or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or
>anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do
>that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't
>(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a
>head or a heart.  I need both.
>
>Best,
>
>Greedy Nina
>
>
>At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
> >Jack Dylan wrote:
> >
> > > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > > one else's. Jack
> >
> >
> >
> >It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
> >
> >In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
> >seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
> >yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
> >personality, and dance circumstances.
> >
> >I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
> >style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
> >that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
> >
> >It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
> >And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
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Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

And, gentlemen...

Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular, 
or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or 
anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do 
that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't 
(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a 
head or a heart.  I need both.

Best,

Greedy Nina


At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Jack Dylan wrote:
>
> > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > one else's. Jack
>
>
>
>It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
>
>In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
>seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
>yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
>personality, and dance circumstances.
>
>I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
>style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
>that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
>
>It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
>And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
>
>Joe
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Melina's essay, "rudeness in Tango, " Tango-L postings

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Shahrukh,

You are being very kind, just as you have been over so many years.   
You have witnessed tremendous (and fun!) flame wars, oh, like 11 years  
ago or so :)  And you have always been very gracious, taking care of  
things and the list.  So a million thanks for that!

In Argentina and all over the world, tango attracts hypersensitive  
people.  The social aspects of tango often provoke people in ways they  
don't expect.  Many become quite reactive, consciously or not.

Personally, I do not mind "flames".  I like fire.  It wipes out the  
old and makes new possible.  I like it when people are passionate  
enough and fearless enough to send me flames, because I might bring on  
them the flames of a dragon and they know it.  I respect that.  But  
then... maybe kindness from me is better.

I think that people become rude and reactive when they are triggered.   
Maybe they are very passionate about something.  What I do resent is  
strong feelings hidden behind a thin veil of politeness or "niceness".  
  I prefer direct agression over passive agression.  And so I conduct  
all flame wars, if ever, publically without keeping anything  
confidential.  I must say, I have not been involved in any really good  
flame war since some members left the list.  I kinda miss them.:)

People who have had thick enough skin to survive in tango have learned  
that they do matter, and how they treat others matters.

Anger (and, thus, "flames") usually means hurt feelings.  People are  
very sensitive in tango and about it.  When we had those old wars,  
people actually were passionate about tango.  They fought over it!   
They stood their ground, insulted each other, offended everyone around  
them, and then became the best of friends, while everyone who watched  
thought "Go figure!".

I am not advocating for the flame wars, but the early ones were fun.   
The later ones, the ones you are referring to, became nasty and not  
fun because there seemed to not be much substance.

In your post, Shahrukh, there is a lot of thought.  I know that this  
will keep reappearing because new people join the list.  And as the  
guardian of the list, you probably will see it all over again many  
times.

Warmest regards,

Nina




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Re: [Tango-L] Melina´s_DJing_Primer

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Melina,

Just a word of suuport.  Pugliese tandas are very special.  They carry  
greater meaning to Argentine people than to foreigners.

Maestro Pugliese was a communist sympathizer and was very much  
disliked by Peron in the 1940s.  Some of his greatest music was  
recorded then.  For Argentine people, this music is very special.   
When Horacio Godoy DJayed the famous Club Almagro on Tuesday nights  
many years ago, which was one of the most incredible milongas of all  
time, he dimmed the lights and the people, most of whom were Argentine  
at that time, which was 10 years ago or so, would find their most  
special dance partner for that tanda.  It was amazing to see people  
who sat all night, clearly by choice, get up just once during the  
night and for this one tanda.

In terms of music, Pugliese arrangements are very special.  He was a  
communist and so if you listen carefully to the music, you might  
discover that the instruments have equally featured parts.

Because we dance to historic music, its meaning must include the  
stories and what it meant to the people throughout the decades of its  
life.  We cannot just know the music and the lyrics.  Just as tango is  
inseparable from the poetry of its lyrics, it is inseparable from the  
history of Argentina.

All the best,

Nina



Quoting Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hey all,
>
> after I've been away for a couple of days, I was quite surprised by
> the personal attacks and complaints to my DJing article, that was
> posted by Andreas.
>
> Just to specify:
> - The article was written and published in April 2006 in the
> Tangodanza magazine. While travelling, I was encountering a lot of
> Milongas without proper DJing. This inspired my to write a few lines.
>   - The article was not meant to be patronizing but as a help or
> guideline for aspiring DJs or Tango-scenes without a DJ. Quite a few
> tango-organizers and DJs thanked me for my efforts.
> - Yes: Pugliese was much "hipper" then, as he is now. Today, I would
> not rank him so high, but he is still one of the masters of dramatic
> Tango. One Tanda of Pugliese at the high point of the evening can
> surely be no mistake. No need to insult me.
>
> That's it.
>
> Bye,
>
> Melina
>
>
>
>
> Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
> -
> www.tangodesalon.de
> www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
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> (0049) (0)681 9381839
> (0049) (0)177 4340669
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] "Save the last dance for..."

[Nina Pesochinsky]

I deleted Astrid's original post from this e-mail because it made it 
too long to be posted.  To make sense of my comment, you need to read her post.

Astrid,

Beautiful and sad post.  Tango as we knew and loved it is dying.  If 
we don't admit it, we might miss the right moment to say goodbye 
properly before its last breath.

Instead of seduction and pleasure, it has become a dance of 
engineering figures.  It takes both partners to know their part on a 
level that goes beyond the movement in tango.  Astrid, the ladies 
value the kicks because this is all that they might get in that 
dance.  The men, on the other hand, might make it a sport to control 
the wild, kicking partner and try to make something of the 
dance.  They call it "connection" and marvel at how well each "leads" 
or "follows".

Here, you might see milongas where men no longer lust after the women 
they dance with.  They don't even pretend to lust after them or after 
a dance with them!  Not even out of politeness!  And the women try so 
hard to have a  bit of some exciting energy with the men that they 
loose their dignity pursuing it.

This beautiful dance of men and women came into a culture outside of 
Argentina that has long ago suffocated the sexy and exciting energy 
between strangers.  And now it's suffocating this dance, because it 
"loves" it and has "embraced" it...  And now the dance does not even 
exist in Buenos Aires.  There are some precious exceptions, but they 
are dissappearing.

Argentine tango, which we knew and loved, is dying.  Every day, I 
honor it and try to keep the memory.  I don't want to miss that last 
moment, one and only chance, to say goddbye.

Nina

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Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango + Puppy Castello on "style"

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Joe,

You can read the archives of the tango-l.  There is a story in detail 
about how Susana Miller invented the term "milonguero" when she began 
teaching in the early 1990s.  The reason that Puppy and others didn't 
say that they danced "milonguero style" is because they didn't know 
that they did!:)

Best,

Nina




At 04:40 PM 8/6/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Trini wrote:
>
> > With male students, I can often tell early on whether he is more
> > suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach accordingly.
>
>So, are those the two main choices? (And if so, why?)
>
> > For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I don't want to
> > intellectualize when I dance.
>
>But isn't that what you are doing if you categorize the guy you are
>about to dance with?
>
> > As for my personal style, my base is milonguero.  Though I dance all
> > of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations, physical and
> > otherwise.
>
>OK - so you dance milonguero, plus "all of the others." And that would
>be called "dancing a style."
>
>Next time someone asks me what style I dance, that will be my answer
>too: "all of the styles."
>
>Now, thankfully, everyone can know in advance what it will be like to
>dance with me.
>
>Yow -- all these years not knowing what my style was, but finally,
>I've got it.
>
>..
>
>Speaking of "milonguero".
>
>The BBC "Confiteria Ideal" 2005 documentary is sampled on youtube.
>(It's nicely done, and includes interviews w. Javier & Geraldine,
>Puppy Castello, and Chicho.)
>
>Check out Puppy Castello in this clip:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A
>
>
>
>Puppy: The most difficult thing is the tango walk. Anyone can do the
>steps -- me, for instance! But very few people can walk.
>
>[...]
>
>Puppy: Most of the old milongueros, other than Portalea, are dead now.
>Times change. Maybe youngsters are dancing the tango of the future.
>But I like my own style.
>
>Interviewer: What  style do you dance?
>
>Puppy: It's the style of the 40s. It has rhythm and elegance. Young
>people move like elephants. For instance, look at Geraldine, who
>dances our style of tango. She's 20 but she dances like us.
>
>
>
>What I want to know is - why didn't Puppy say "my style is milonguero
>style"?
>When you think of the kind of people you could classify as
>"milongueros" - wouldn't Puppy Castello have fit the bill?
>
>If Puppy Castello was a milonguero, why didn't he dance milonguero
>style?
>
>Maybe he is not a milonguero. In that case, what do you call him? A
>dancer? A salonero?
>
>Puppy himself called Portalea a milonguero. (But Portalea didn't dance
>milonguero style either.)
>
>-joe
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Myk,

Your approach to tango seems a bit too naive and too literal, but 
that probably will change in time.

So just a few corrections:
1. Passion is allowed among people regardless of conventional 
partnerships, if people they are not repressed.
2. Partnerships do not control passion and one does not have to 
pretend to be playing a role in order to justify sharing passion with 
someone other than his or her partner.
3, Milonga gay does not mean segregation of gay people.  It means 
that the codes of conduct are relaxed in regards to the music, the 
gender roles, the invitation style, etc.  But... if you are not 
familiar with these milongas in BsAs, you wouldn't have known it.

And you see what I mean about the cultural stuff?  All I have to do 
is throw out the word "milonga gay" to someone raised in the Western 
homophobic reactionary society and I get  an instant response!

Keep working on it, Myk.  You're doing just fine.

Nina



At 08:47 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
>Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>>Noticing the anatomical differences between genders is how 
>>3-year-olds learn that mommy and daddy are different.
>
>Actually, I think they recognise their different facial features. 
>Anatomical differences are way down the list. Human brains are 
>hard-wired to recognise and distinguish faces
>
>>The key words in Myk's post are "playing a role".  Real dancers do 
>>not play a role.  They dance who they are.  If a woman can't quite 
>>figure out the power of her gender, she is in trouble, just as a 
>>man swimming in feminine energy.
>
>Sorry, Nina, but you're wrong. Dancers play a role, because a dance 
>is telling a story. A good dancer brings their self into the role. 
>People's psyche's are rarely so pure, and the story of the dance is 
>rarely reality. If you dance a passionate dance with someone who is 
>not your partner, you are play-acting, dancing a role. I'm not sure 
>why you want to be dismissive of this very powerful part of human 
>culture. Humans can empathise and communicate fiction. It's a 
>wonderful thing, deserving of great respect.
>
>>Why is it that the Argentines have no issues with gender 
>>roles?  They dance as men and women, and, if those roles don't 
>>work, they go to some milonga gay.  But they certainly do not try 
>>to justify abandoning traditional gender roles in the traditional milongas.
>
>Perhaps it's "traditional" homophobia? What you are describing is 
>called segregation, and it's something that I for one find quite 
>abhorrent in principle. Why should gay people have to go to separate milongas?
>
>>Actually, I am not against tango in energetic gender drag.  I just 
>>want to know when and where it is happening, so that I can be prepared. :)
>
>"I got nothin' against them gay folk, I jes' don't want to see 'em 
>kissin' in front o' me!"
>
>Spend a moment considering the similarities of those two statements, 
>ignoring the obvious differences.
>
>--
>Myk Dowling

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Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango

[Nina Pesochinsky]

For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in 
trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone.  There 
was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and 
she tried to collect money.  There was something quaint about her...

How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!

Does anybody know if she is still there?

:)

Nina


At 08:33 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
  But Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street 
dancers and stage shows as well.

>--
>Myk Dowling

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Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla

[Nina Pesochinsky]

 From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place.  Maybe 
Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no 
place else.:)

So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango 
country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in 
every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc.  Instead of other 
fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new 
styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango 
Australian style", etc. :)

Nina


At 04:40 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:

>I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my
>partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into
>anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder?
>
>--
>Myk Dowling
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Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Piazzolla is never played at the traditional milongas.  But... the 
traditional milongas are dying, along with the people to whom they 
meant something.  Authentic Argentine tango is either dead, or will 
be soon  We can't go home.

Why try to build a shelter from a nuclear attack?  Why would you want 
to survive?!  To dance authentic Argentine tango, of course.  Alone.

What difference does it make what music is played at the milongas 
these days, since most people can't really dance to any of 
it?  Piazzolla, D'Agostino - different temperamentally and equally 
complicated.  So who cares what is being played?!  And many are just 
projecting their own fantasy of the past,  having heard all about 
it.  One can waste a lifetime sitting there in the milongas in BsAs 
or any place else in anticipation of a glorious tanda, which never 
arrives, or if arrives, in anticipation of a glorious partner for the 
next tanda, or, if that does not happen, in anticipation of another 
milonga the next day.

Piazzolla is bad if one can't dance to it.  So is D'Arienzo and all 
the rest, so it might as well be Piazzolla.

I say, to hell with the rules if they have no meaning.  When men and 
women have stopped being men and women and became amoebas ready to 
dance to anything in any role, why try to save anything?  You can't 
play a game where the players don't agree on the rules.

And now I will go and swallow some anti-sarcasm drugs.

Nina






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Re: [Tango-L] Martha Graham meets Gustavo Naveira

[Nina Pesochinsky]

One good reason not to incorporate Graham into tango is that it would 
take most tango dancers about 5 years of daily work to actually 
master Graham.   Since most can't even master tango in 5 years :), it 
is not likely that there could be a successdul fusion.  Instead, it 
might be easier to teach tango to the Graham dancers.

Graham is an incredible dance form and training requires brutal work 
and a very strong spirit.  It is also a great American legacy of 
dance.  Just like tango, there will be many people that would like to 
bastardise it by making it "accessible to the masses".



At 06:40 AM 7/20/2008, Mario wrote:
>Check out sequence no. 1 and no. 2
>   http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=sylIGL-PcBI&feature=related
>   There are Martha Graham workshops in Manhattan this coming week
>   why not just go there and then just incorporate anything you 
> learn into your tango?
>   Are they actually teaching this stuff as social dancing?  I'm confused
>
>   ..Oh yes, I saw my first tango related injury take place before 
> my eyes last week.
>   ..it wasn't pretty..two women and one with stilleto 4 inch heels 
> stuck it into the ankle
>   of the other..they happened to both be doing some swinging foot 
> move behind at the same time.  .. it hurt.
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Because they are not dancing the woman's part with a woman 
leading.  Men dancing together is a diffrent thing than a man 
following a woman.  Men dancing with each other has been a part of 
the development of AT, but women leading men has not.


At 05:34 AM 7/20/2008, Martin Waxman wrote:
>For those on the list who firmly believe that gender roles in
>Argentine Tango are specific.
>
>If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they dancing?
>If it is not Argentine Tango, why aren't the posts labeled OFF TOPIC?
>
>Marty
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Marty,

If a woman leads and a man follows, it may be a tango of some sort, 
but it is NOT Argentine.

Nina




>There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader?
>
>You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader.
>In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead
>WELL, and can also follow.
>
>There are women in our Tango community who prefer to lead.
>I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have accepted.
>It's still Argentine Tango.
>
>Marty
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"

[Nina Pesochinsky]

At least she asked for your preference... :)  Maybe she was just 
tryig to impress you, sort of like doing a sword fight while wearing 
a long dress.

Amazing that you danced with her after that exchange.  That was very 
nice of you.  If I was a man, I would have walked away without a word 
and never looked at her again.

Christopher Walken is amazing.  He is brilliant portraying sociopaths 
with a conscience, which does not exist in real life.  As far as an 
effective attitude for strange tango incidents goes, how about Javier 
Braden in "No Country for Old Men", without the air can vacuum 
thing?  I kinda like the whole thing without words.

This was the funniest post that I have read in a long time.  Thank you, Mario!

Nina


At 11:54 PM 7/18/2008, Mario wrote:
>Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, "Would you like to 
>lead or follow?"
>   I was startled. I answered "Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. 
> I had lapsed into Valley girl
>   speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of 
> Christopher Walken.
>   So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris "Wow, this is 
> confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do 
> I get?...unisex?
>What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied 
> again, "No, I just wanted to
>   know if you wanted to lead or follow?"  I could have milked the 
> scene, it was rich material
>   so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice 
> (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced.
>It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve 
> to feel like you can
>   pull it off with her...it's not easy.  There should be some 
> respect..I don't get any respect.
>
>
>
>
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[Tango-L] Any tango in South Africa?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hello, dancers,

Does anyone know if there is any tango in South Africa, around Cape 
Town?  Any festivals?  My search so far has been unsuccessful.

I will be most grateful for any information.

Many thanks.

Nina

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Re: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Deby,

How right you are!  And how sad this is.

I lived in BsAs in 1998-2000.  I was there during the crisis of 2001.   
Now, every time I am there, I am looking for my Buenos Aires.  I can  
find it still, but it is the Buenos Aires that has nothing to do with  
tango.

The tourism has changed tango.  The arguments for the economy and the  
benefit to everyone are true.  But the change that happened to tango  
because of the tourism is grotesque to me.  I no longer like the  
milongas and no longer like what I see.  I do travel to more distant  
milongas where one can still catch a glimpse of the past.

Villa Urquiza was respected as a place of tango.  It still is, but  
only because of the old people from another era that still dance  
there. People like their barrio and are proud to be from there and  
dance there. If people want to call it a "style", so be it - it will  
help someone to remember that Villa Urquiza meant something to dancers  
long ago as a respected place of tango.

It is true that no Argentine that I know ever discusses a "style".   
People just dance.  They dance either well or not.

Nina






Quoting Deby Novitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I would have to concur with Ron.  I find it almost laughable that people
> who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the
> Villa Urquiza style of tango.  This form of tango, along with orillero
> is almost never danced anymore.  I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from
> Pocho who is 84 years old.  It is very demanding on the woman.  I have
> seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always
> danced by people who are older than 70.  It is not taught here.
> Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins.
>
> Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto.  Mimi
> taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she
> visited San Francisco when I still lived there.  Orillero is the one
> form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man.  The back
> step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa
> Urquiza it is not taught.  You see it danced in shows but never in the
> milongas.
>
> Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001.  In
> 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism.
> There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business
> community on how to maximize their business.  Overnight everyone became
> a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour
> agency for tango.  Prices went through the sky.  After all, why should
> people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires.  A pair of tango shoes
> now costs upwards of $90.
>
> Now that we have so many "new" tango teachers everyone needs an angle.
> It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina.  So now
> people say they teach "Villa Urquiza", "Estilo Amagro", "Milonguero" or
> whatever else sounds good.  People who have been dancing less than 2
> years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers.
> It is horrifying.  These people are the ones who are teaching and
> traveling.  A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color
> page ads have danced less than 2 years.  A friend of mine and Sandra's
> who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany
> for 4 months.  It is pretty crazy.
>
> Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene.  We go
> to the milongas to dance and see our friends.  I never look out at the
> floor and think "Wow, he is dancing apilado"  or "I want to dance with
> that guy who dances estilo Amagro."  No, instead it is more like, "I
> want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day."  or
> "Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo."  (How beautiful
> this tango, who can dance with me)  I don't ever recall my friends here
> in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever.  They may
> watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que
> disastre). For us tango is always about the music.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Quoting Deby Novitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I would have to concur with Ron.  I find it almost laughable that people
> who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the
> Villa Urquiza style of tango.  This form of tango, along with orillero
> is almost never danced anymore.  I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from
> Pocho who is 84 years old.  It is very demanding on the woman.  I have
> seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always
> danced by people who are older than 70.  It is not taught here.
> Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins.
>
> Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto.  Mimi
> taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she
> visited San Francisco when I still lived there.  Orillero is the one
> form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man.  The back
> step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa
> Urquiza it is not taught.  You see it danced in shows but never in the
> milongas.
>
> Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001.  In
> 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism.
> There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business
> community on how to maximize their business.  Overnight everyone became
> a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour
> agency for tango.  Prices went through the sky.  After all, why should
> people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires.  A pair of tango shoes
> now costs upwards of $90.
>
> Now that we have so many "new" tango teachers everyone needs an angle.
> It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina.  So now
> people say they teach "Villa Urquiza", "Estilo Amagro", "Milonguero" or
> whatever else sounds good.  People who have been dancing less than 2
> years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers.
> It is horrifying.  These people are the ones who are teaching and
> traveling.  A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color
> page ads have danced less than 2 years.  A friend of mine and Sandra's
> who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany
> for 4 months.  It is pretty crazy.
>
> Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene.  We go
> to the milongas to dance and see our friends.  I never look out at the
> floor and think "Wow, he is dancing apilado"  or "I want to dance with
> that guy who dances estilo Amagro."  No, instead it is more like, "I
> want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day."  or
> "Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo."  (How beautiful
> this tango, who can dance with me)  I don't ever recall my friends here
> in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever.  They may
> watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que
> disastre). For us tango is always about the music.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Milton Myers, a master teacher, choreographer and former principal 
dancers of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company in NY, once said in class 
that all dance teachers have some gems.  Some of them have many and 
they spill them in front of their students.  But others have only one 
or two.  Most students wait for the teachers that spill lots of gems 
before they start picking them up.  But it is the student that is not 
only picking all those spilled gems, but also who is able to pick 
that one gem from that not the best of the teachers is the one that 
will end up with a bigger treasure.

There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if 
you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like 
him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that 
teacher.  But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance 
like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is 
the last deity of tango?

The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her 
internal drive?  If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend 
lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out.  It is a journey, 
and the words don't matter.

Nina



At 08:40 PM 6/9/2008, Chris, UK wrote:
> > Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words.
> > ...  But it does not matter.  Argentines know that.  They do not hook
> > into every word for its "truth".  It just needs to sound good.
>
>Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina.
>
>When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of
>his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him
>how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to
>be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true.
>
>Rather, "it just needs to sound good." ???
>
>--
>Chris
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Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Here are two glorious words that, sadly, never show up in tango 
promotions in English:

- Bodacious
- Stupendous

Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words.  If you are 
about to announce a dancing couple that is going to dance a 
performance, and you say "Here are the best dancers in the world!", 
does it really matter whether it is true or not?  At that one split 
second, they might be.  But it does not matter.  Argentines know 
that.  They do not hook into every word for its "truth".  It just 
needs to sound good.

When a man tells a woman when they dance "Ojos claros! Que divina 
hermosa mujer!', should she argue with him because it may not really 
be true?  And when a woman tells the man she just danced with that he 
is the best dancer she has ever danced with, should he argue because 
his left brain might be whispering to him doubts about that?  I hope not!

Nina




At 07:36 PM 6/9/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote:
>Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been
>sweeping the world these last few years.
>
>There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra-
>ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in
>tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one
>has to be a master of masters.
>
>Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's ARGENTINEhushed-awe>.
>
>Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!?
>
>
>On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
>
> >> Marketing or hype?
> >
> > Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;)
> >
> > Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as
> > well as
> > the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/
> > 5pmbh4 who
> > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite
> > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship
> > ever
> > having been held.
> >
> > --
> > Chris
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Re: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Many stories, both witnessed and experienced over the last 12 years.   
Many stories were witnessed by many other people over the years  
because they involved well-known dancers.  Other stories are just  
stories, similar in their "once up on a time" and "forever after"  
scenarios.

Nina



Quoting Dubravko Kakarigi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> - Original Message 
> From: Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ...
>> But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any   
>> other  part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal.  Many   
>> different kinds.
> Is there a story here? I am curious ...
> ...dubravko
>  ===
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Chris, I agree.

I don't think that tango brings out the worst in people.  It brings  
out everything, including some very beautiful characteristics of  
people that otherwise might be hidden from the world.

But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any other  
part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal.  Many different  
kinds.

Nina


Quoting "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Deby Novitz wrote:
>
>> Our tango culture is so different than the cultures outside of Buenos
>> Aires
>
> Tango-L is truly unique. Where else could one find North Americans
> claiming Buenos Aires tango is "our culture"? ;)
>
>> For whatever reason tango seems to bring out the worst in people
>> outside of Buenos Aires.
>
> Speak for your own tango third world country Deby, but not for everywhere
> else, please.
>
> --
> Chris
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Re: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo & milonguerohappy together?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

The problem is that "Tango Nuevo" is essentially a lie.  I speak as a  
former devoted member of that club.

It is not "nuevo" because there is nothing new. It was a disappointing  
discovery after I had danced the glorious "nuevo" moves at some  
practica in and then danced with an old gentlemen at Sunderalnd that  
did as a matter of course one of the moves we were so pround of and  
regarded as one of the "nuevo" moves.

It is also not "tango" because it ignores some of the basic principles  
of the dance called Argentine Tango.  I don't mean "rejects".  I do  
mean "ignores", as if those principles did not exist and/or had meaning.

But... people are free to engage in self-deception.  And... I am free  
to entertain myself by appreciating how cute it is when new dancers  
get excited about silly little things :)

It is like saying "There is a NEW tango that is being created, and,  
Suprise!, we are the innovators!"

When little kids draw some silly picture and smear colors all over and  
then present it as if it was the treasure of the world, all proud of  
themselves, we are supposed to say "Great drawing!  You are so  
talented!"  And then give them a hug and a kiss and send them off to  
do more of the same, which they cheerfully and energetically do.   
Somehow, we know that this will pass.

I need to stop thinking that "nuevo" fans are serious and mature  
dancers.  I need to remember to say "you are great!  this is the best  
dancing I have ever seen!" and hope that they will run off and do  
something... eventually.

Nina







Quoting Alexis Cousein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>> How about calling "nuevo" Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or
>> Wanna-be-tango?  The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality
>> (apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious
>> face and an attitude of self-importance.  All of these conditions must
>> be present in order to meet the criteria.
>>
> Uhm - that's quite a drastic redefinition of "Nuevo" (and would
> actually apply to many rabid foaming-at-the-mouth nuevo haters with
> too little introspection, too, as a matter of fact).
>
> It's my impression that "fake tango" can be danced (just as badly)
> in many different styles.
>
> I just call tend to call bad tango "bad tango".
>
> And in fact, not even a close embrace can make me think of bad tango
> as good, even though the couple would just fail at *one* of your
> criteria for fake tango.
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
> --
> 
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo & milonguerohappy together?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Good point, John.  But Ballroom is actually a well-defined discipline  
of dance with incredibly rigorous training.

How about calling "nuevo" Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or  
Wanna-be-tango?  The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality  
(apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious  
face and an attitude of self-importance.  All of these conditions must  
be present in order to meet the criteria.

This, of course, would be for the purpose of diagnosis by others.  The  
problem with dancers that pursue fake tango is that THEY ACTUALLY LIKE  
THE WAY THEY DANCE.  Until that changes, nothing else will.

Best,

Nina



Quoting "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> There is a lot of sense in what Ron says. After all, you never see
> anyone dancing ballroom tango at a milonga. At least I never have.
> Perhaps it is time to rename nueveo "Argentine Ballroom Tango" to go
> alongside International Ballroom and American Ballroom, and to have
> special events devoted to it. Milonguero could be called "Classical
> Argentine Tango", on the lines of "classical ballet". Then everybody
> would know what to expect.
>
> John Ward
> Bristol, UK
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Sometimes I would prefer that some dancers embrace themselves instead of me! :)

NIna




At 07:23 PM 5/13/2008, Michael wrote:
>From: "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
>
>
>My dance teacher once said: "Before we can embrace others, we have 
>to be able to embrace ourselves."
>
>Michael
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Mario" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
>
>
>Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very 
>sensitive Tanguera.
>
>   http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Sounds like different people call different things "Tango Nuevo".  It  
might be useful for the benefit of this discussion to hear from those  
who have contributed so far as what they actually consider to be  
'tango nuevo", how they would describe it, and possibly name some  
dancers, preferably extremely famous for the sake of recognition by  
most, as clear examples of the dancing they perceive as "nuevo".

Thank you.

Nina






Quoting David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> Keith Elshaw wrote:
> "Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
> space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?"
>
> Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent   
> and considerate
> nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a  
>  puente.  I watched
> last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in   
> less space than
> my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado.  Etc.  As far as I   
> can tell, bad
> ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango.  And when they do go   
> a little crazy, the
> good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of  
>  the floor,
> and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace
> dancers are wont to do.
>
> Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the
> requirements for dancing nuevo tango.  I might be wrong, but I don't  
>  think so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D. David Thorn
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango is not looking back

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Yeah, they predicted the same thing about 10 years ago.  Nothing 
happenned.  It is all the same as it was then, only the people had 
changed.  And that new music that was also promised back then also 
does not seem to be happenning...

Mario wrote:
---  We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
   any kind of music.

Mario, "Nuevo Tango" can't dance anything or to anything.  It is 
called "nuevo" because it does not fit the category of "dancing" 
:).  I am sure that those that claim to be "tango nuevo" dancers are 
deaf and don't want to be discovered.  But it is diffucult to hide 
because they are usually outside of the music, regardless what the music is.

But...

"Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come."

-Alexander Pope,
An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733






At 07:36 PM 5/10/2008, Mario wrote:
>We've heard it said that the Nuevo Tango is sucking in the youth
>   and soon they will convert to Salon Tango once they get into the 
> music of it.
>   Well, don't hold your breath. We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
>   any kind of music..Prediction: A new music will evolve that will Catapult
>   Nuevo Tango into it's own orbit...it is like when the P.C. was 
> waiting for the
>   killer application, in order to really take off...and it got 
> it.  Now, the dance is
>   here (thanks to the old) and it's waiting for it's music.. you 
> heard it here, first.
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wnltkOb28
>
>
>-
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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

At 05:00 PM 5/6/2008, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>So if tango is supposed to be about the emotional
>connection which can only be felt between partners, can
>somebody tell me why people are looking for videos to
>measure this quality?

Boredom?  Engineering inclinations?  Solving mechanical problems? 
Fantasy of an artistic life?  Who knows?!


>The man-woman thing can also be taken too far in these
>discussions.  I mean, that's like saying that every man
>wants to sleep with every woman he ever dances with, even
>if that's his mother, sister, or daughter.  Somebody want
>to ask Copes if he dances sensually with his daughter?
>E.  C'mon.


Yeah, this thing with parent-child tango is really warped.  We don't 
know how either one of them feels about it.  This is a professional 
relationship and it has its benefits.  To iterpret man-woman thing in 
social tango as if it was about sex is somewhat primitive, IMNSHO.

Trini, it is much, much more.:)

Nina 

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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Keith,

I want to take it just a bit further.

The man-woman thing in tango is pretty precious.  Where else do you  
find it?  In relationships?!  I think not.  In relationships, you have  
to deal with a whole bunch of other stuff - commitments, schedules,  
moods, discussions, negotiations, laundry, and want not. :)  Where  
else can you have the man-woman thing pure?

No place but in tango, of course!  It can be pure romance, with no  
commitment, no obligation, and no further responsibility after a 10  
minute tanda.  Granted, this freedom has a huge price, but still...

So why give up on the man-woman thing?  To some, tango is an  
engineering and architechtural project.  To others, it is an emotional  
playground.  Values, values, values!

Nina

Quoting Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Tango is a dance between a man and a woman and I've never seen a woman
> who could dance very good Tango in the man's role. I'm not saying they don't
> exist, just that I've never seen one. I've been to La Marshall   
> twice, and I've
> seen men who could play the woman's role but never the other way around.
>
> Can anyone provide a link to a YouTube video showing a woman dancing the
> man's role as well as an intermediate/advanced man?
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>  On Sun May  4 23:11 , "Chris, UK"  sent:
>
>>
>> I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda
>> disruptors.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime

[Nina Pesochinsky]

All tango can be laughable.  At times, if you just stare at the dance 
floor even of the best milongas, it feels like a Fellini movie.

If you accept that tango can be laughable and ridiculous, and then 
see enough videos of yourself, any show will be quite entertaining 
because you already laughted at yourself and everything that you do.

The problem with the dancers that Larry refers to is that they have 
no awarenessof themselves, that they probably do not know what they 
look like or what they do looks like.  That also means that if they 
see the show, they might not recognize themselves.  Wicked problem!

Nina


At 09:18 PM 5/5/2008, meaning of life wrote:
>tango crimes has been done MASTERFULLY already
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxs_jRRnOl0
>
>but wait, are you still laughing, because he shows ALL of the 
>laughable tango types not just the ones that you don't like. if you 
>all don't see your type in this, then it is time to watch a video of 
>yourselves.
>
>
>The Tangonista
>Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
>NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
>
>
>--
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Re: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime

[Nina Pesochinsky]

How about producing a show called "Tango Crimes" and showing it 
everywhere (sort of like in "Hamlet")?  But make sure that you search 
your audience for daggers and poison, because there is no ridicule 
greater than seeing oneself reflected on stage.

But that would be too cruel.  They don't deserve it.  They don't know 
how stupid they look.  So what is a better way to show it in a gentle 
way that brings results?

Nina


>What can we do about show-tango crimes?  Maybe nothing.  Direct 
>criticism would likely be met by hurt and anger and defiance and 
>push them to become "hardened criminals."  Example could help, if 
>you are good enough to pull off elegantly tamed show-tango 
>moves.  Workshops and practicas with names like "Show tango at the 
>milonga" or "Stage tango on the dance floor" might also help, as 
>pointed reminders to "criminals" and as a way of heading off 
>potential desperadoes.  Another way would be to ask one of these 
>couples for help adapting what they do to tight spaces.  In teaching 
>you they would have to re-think what they were doing.  They might 
>even become examples themselves.
>
>Larry de Los Angeles
>
>_
>Hotel pics, info and virtual tours.  Click here to book a hotel online.
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[Tango-L] Salud, Dinero y Amor

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Dear dancers, musicians, and poets,

I have found two versions of this vals - Rodriguez y Canaro.  Are 
there any others?  I must have them all (some wonder "why bother?", 
right?  Well, it is my drinking song :).  Please let me know if you 
know of any other recordings.

Many thanks,

Nina 

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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Chris,

You are brilliant,  This is the best explanation.  And the shortest 
one.  Need to add the scoialization part, since things happen after 
the chromosomes come together and before tango happens.  I guess that 
would be culture, but I don't want to talk about culture anymore!:)

Thank you!

Nina


At 11:14 AM 5/4/2008, Chris, UK wrote:
> > So, can women lead as well or better as men?  My answer is no.  Can
> > men follow?  Oh, yes.
>
>Very true. Leading comes from the Y chromosome, and following from the X. ;)
>
>--
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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Chris,

I am glad that it seems to be in decline in Europe.  Women are 
terrible leads.  Even the best of them.  The problem is a lack of 
testosterone and socialization in male roles.  I stress 
"socialization", and not "male roles'.

It works for stage, and very well at times.  But as a social dance, 
it does not work.  I don't think that people can walk away from 
gender roles and feel just as well as when they are within them (if 
those gender roles work for them in life, that is).

In my experience, regrdless of the fact that I had leaned from 
fabulous Argentine male dancers, and have danced both parts from the 
beginning of my training over a decade ago. it does not work for me 
socially to walk out into the dance floor in a male role of the 
dance, dance with the women, then switch my role again and try to 
dance with the men with whom I just "competed" for space/partners/etc.

If the dance if to be danced well, some of the energy of the gender 
roles needs to be preserved.  Otherwise, we will be dancing amoeba 
tango.  I have never seen any women, whose lead deserved any 
attention, at any of the milongas, including la Marshall in BsAs.

So, can women lead as well or better as men?  My answer is no.  Can 
men follow?  Oh, yes.  Another man and better than most women that I have seen.

Those that have questions about this topic should go dance at La 
Marshall.  There is some amazing social dancing to be seen there, all 
danced by the men.

Best,

Nina





At 09:11 AM 5/4/2008, Chris, UK wrote:
> > So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in
> > other areas?
>
>Where in Europe it was strongest - Berlin - it's now in decline. That's
>natural die-back post cessation of Ladies Leading workshops run locally by
>a German lady who thankfully now spends more time teaching in the US.
>
>I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda
>disruptors.
>
>Many of the few left still are. Sort of like children playing on tarmac
>that looks like their school playground, but is in fact a motorway...
>
>I think the problem is having no clue as to the guy-guy thing that makes
>the ronda happen. Which I guess is not their fault, having learnt in a
>studio that doesn't have a working ronda, rather than in a milonga that
>does. And not even having a guy as teacher! ;)
>
>--
>Chris
>
>PS
>
> > Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
>
>No, and asking another twenty times won't change that! ;)
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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Larry,

First, I had to laugh.  Now I can be serious.

So where did the men get the naive idea that following is not having 
"to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and
enjoy the music." ?!

I think that you should follow, but not a woman.  Follow a man who is 
good, and do wear 4" heels while dancing with him. (any 
transvestite/stage costume store should have something that you can 
use in large enough of a size to fit a man's foot).  And listen 
carefully to his musicality so that your feel land on the music.  If 
this works out right away, make sure that your body moves in such a 
way that everybody will know instantly that the man you are dancing 
with is a great dancer.   Start with that, if you dare.

I'd love to hear the report.

Best,

Nina

>At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by
> >CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.
> >
> >When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was
> >annoyed.  It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of
> >women dancers.  I was also annoyed because most of the women had all
> >the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their
> >surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast
> >and big movements which endangered others, and so on.
> >
> >As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less
> >annoyed.  As their average skill level improved they became less
> >dangerous.  It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to
> >be a follower.  I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) 
> leaders better.
> >
> >Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders
> >demonstrate a technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't
> >have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and
> >enjoy the music.  It took me years to get to the point where I could
> >experience this "Zen tango" while leading and it might have taken
> >longer if I hadn't had some meditation training.
> >
> >So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise
> >in other areas?  And do they lead men a lot?
> >
> >Larry de Los Angeles
> >
> >_
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> >
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Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading

[Nina Pesochinsky]

"Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men, the other 999 follow women."
Groucho Marx



At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by 
>CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.
>
>When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was 
>annoyed.  It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of 
>women dancers.  I was also annoyed because most of the women had all 
>the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their 
>surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast 
>and big movements which endangered others, and so on.
>
>As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less 
>annoyed.  As their average skill level improved they became less 
>dangerous.  It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to 
>be a follower.  I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) leaders better.
>
>Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders 
>demonstrate a technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't 
>have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and 
>enjoy the music.  It took me years to get to the point where I could 
>experience this "Zen tango" while leading and it might have taken 
>longer if I hadn't had some meditation training.
>
>So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise 
>in other areas?  And do they lead men a lot?
>
>Larry de Los Angeles
>
>_
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>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Or,  "I can't find anything to wear in your closet".



At 07:20 PM 4/28/2008, NANCY wrote:

>Ah yes!  The 'I have nothing to wear' closet.
>
>N
>
>
> 
>
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>know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it 
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Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance

[Nina Pesochinsky]

I forgot to mention something that was the reason that I wrote the 
post in the first place -  any one dancer, a man or a woman, needs 
only one other dancer at any moment that he/she would like to 
dance.  It is ot a requirement that all other people in the room are 
dancin.  So gender balance/imbalance is irrelevant.   It is not how 
many are there that is important, but rather who is there.

If a woman wants to dance with a particular man, and he is busy 
dancing with someone else, he is not available and it is irrelevant 
whether there are other men and that there may be gender 
balance.  That particular man is not available for that particular 
tanda.  Instead dancing with whomever, and spend the precious music 
while thinking "I wish I was dancing with the other one", it might be 
better to sit.

And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a milonga in 
BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say  "There is 
nobody here to dance with!".

Nina 

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Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance

[Nina Pesochinsky]

David,

Sad, sad... this is very sad. :)

You dance with people because of their level of dance?! beginner or advanced?!

And what if they have bad breath, look desperate, and have nothing 
intresting to say?  What if you say "axis" to a woman, and she smiles 
and says "yes, of course", but is thinking "this guy is crazy, I have 
no idea what he is talking about"?

The sad part is when people dance with people only because of what 
they perceive the other person's dancing level to be.  Once, in 
ancient times, I danced with a man who, as I recall, may not have 
been a great dancer (but I can't be sure).  While we danced, he was 
telling me hillarious jokes in my ear.  I was hurting from 
laughter.  I laughted at those jokes for years.

You can teach someone to find his/her axis (and even someone else's 
:), and whatever else, but you cannot teach them to be witty and entertaining.

On a serious note, dancers hold real power to mold other dancers.  A 
man who is a fabulous dancer, can teach a woman, any woman, almost 
any basic technical element non-verbally, while simply dancing with 
her.  But why would we do that?  Social duty? Not at all.  Instead, 
more from a recognition that people are much more than their dancing 
abilities, and that it may be a mistake to dance with a proficiency 
level instead of a person.

Best,

Nina



At 05:59 PM 4/28/2008, David Thorn wrote:

>Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender 
>imbalance situation.  I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one 
>of those terminal intermediates who "prey" on the beginners.  I 
>dance with beginning and with advanced follows.  I almost never 
>dance with the intermediate follows.
>
>When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping 
>my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance 
>unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or 
>to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or 
>whatever.  Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, 
>and then the dance is fine.
>
>The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but 
>certainly not excellent, dancer.  However I am good enough that I 
>can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time.  They 
>can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and 
>no requests are required.  They say yes to my dance invitations and 
>we have a fine dance.
>
>But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least 
>very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a 
>lead, and/or  But, since they know that I am only an 
>intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even 
>regarding my damaged rotator cuff.  They KNOW that they are not 
>clamping my arm.  I have simply quit asking them to dance.
>
>Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I 
>can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad 
>about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall 
>looking hopefully out at the floor.
>
>Cheers
>
>D. David Thorn
>
>_
>Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. 
>Get in the game.
>http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
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Re: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - reply to Ron

[Nina Pesochinsky]

There are a few misconceptions here that I would like to address.

1.  If someone is comfortable with his/her own body, there is nothing 
and no one that can "make" this person to be uncomfortable.  What 
happens instead is that people ignore their discomfort in the regular 
life activities, move themselves out of the body and into the head, 
and stay there until they arrive to tango.  Tango is just a mirror of 
what is already there.

2.  Walking in Buenos Aire is good for tango, true.  But what is much 
better is to ride the old Mercedes buses.  If you can keep your 
balance without holding on to anything, and do it every day, the 
tango improves dramatically. :)

3.  That 20 year old bodies are better than 40 year old bodies.  Not 
true.  20 year old bodies are ignored and disconnected usually 
because the person is some place else.  If one has been doing 
something with his or her own body since the age of 20, and has been 
doing it for 20 years (not tango, but something that involves some 
consistent and purposeful cultivation of the body), his or her body 
will be much, much better at 40 than at 20..  The problem is that 
many people arrive to tango after their bodies had fossilized, and 
after living in their heads for decades.

4.  The longer I dance, the less I understand who is a beginner and 
who is advanced.  I believe that the problem is tango dimentia that 
sets in after some time of dancing -  one sort of forgets the way 
home and it does not matter.:)

5.  Tango alone cannot teach a person to move and to be connected 
with the body.  Other things are needed.  There is a reason why 
people come to tango.  More often than not it is subconscious.  But 
each person does know what he/she needs or wants and is able to 
pursue it, if the conditions are right.  To create a space where a 
person can explore his or her movement in a safe place,  is much more 
important on any level of dancing than the moves or technique.

When people begin to dance, something important and big has already 
began to happen to their psyche.  Some call it the emergence of the 
authentic self.  It is a process for everyone.  I believe that it is 
a very painful process.  All transformations are painful.

I believe that if a tango teacher recognizes that such a 
transformation is taking place in his or her students, he or she can 
tend to the space that is needed, and the trust that gets built, and 
gently help them move.  It is amazing to see the incredible speed 
with which people learn tango in these conditions.  The role of the 
teacher then become that of helping a person to emerge authentic in the dance.

See what happens when I sit at my computer long enough?!

Best,

Nina



At 07:35 PM 4/21/2008, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

>--- Tango Society of Central Illinois
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Each dancer needs to be comfortable with their movements.
> > Different anatomical characteristics, including injury,
>will make a 'one size fits all' approach inapplicable.
>Dancers who are made to feel uncomfortable in their bodies
>will stop dancing tango.
>
> > Remember, tango has been danced for over 100 years by
> > people in Buenos Aires who have not had extensive
>training. Most good dancers developed on their own, by many
>kilometers of walking on the dance floor.
>
>That's true but those dancers were able to start in their
>teens.  I'm guessing their bodies were relatively free of
>the habits of those of us starting a lot later.  Generally
>speaking, a 40-year-old body learns things differently than
>a 20-year-old body.  Sigh.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh

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[Tango-L] Smoke in BA is not tango related?!

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Floyd,

The smoke in BsAs IS TANGO RELATED!  Those of us with a profound 
connection to Argentina have close friends there.  There are also 
many old dancers that we know, whose health is greatly affected by 
these conditions.  It is not important who is to blame.  The fact is 
that the smoke is there and the people are suffering.

None of us can do anything to help the people we care about.  I don't 
know what this smoke will do to our friends there, especially those 
who are old.  The older dancers are dissappearing already.  Because I 
currently do not live in BsAs, every time I go, I learn about the 
deaths of old dancers whom I knew and was very fond of.  After this, 
who knows what and who we will find?!

The smoke is the human aspect of tango.  This is the world of those 
who live in Buenos Aires.  People who wrote about it on the list, are 
not only affected themselves, but also care greatly about what 
happens.  I am happy to hear what they have to say.

Without considering the human aspect of tango, any discussion about 
tango is idiotic.

NIna


At 01:00 PM 4/20/2008, Floyd Baker wrote:


>Right now I consider this *entire* subject with it's various threads
>to be off topic., and I'm sorry I entered into it.  It is all to do
>with smoke, and not about Tango.
>
>Beyond that., it is very unfortunate for all the victims and terrible
>conditions that you say exist.   I do understand that., and I feel for
>those who are suffering.
>
>
>
>Here is my private response to your private email.  The one not
>addressed to Tango-L   Both of which are identical afai can see.
>
>
>Deby..
>
>To me it was a 'possiblity'.   I have not been there nor know the
>farmer's standard of living.   So, I believe my statement was put in
>the manner of a question...?  If anyone knew what their
>standard of living was.
>
>You seem to know.  Fine. They're millonairs   ;-/   No difference!
>
>Money still rules, eh?   If not the lightning, or the kids, or
>'starving' farmers.., then people will still do what it takes to get
>things done to suit themselves.
>
>I would say that a 16 percent increase IS excessive.   No matter they
>can 'afford' it.   Perhaps the government should help to increase
>production and export, instead of charging more for what is *already*
>being done.
>
>Grasslands exist all over the country.   I'm sure there would be no
>problem growing soy somewhere other than upwind of the city.., right?
>And it could be mandated..?   So what is the 'real' problem.  And will
>it continue to happen?
>
>Can anyone give a Tango related solution?
>
>Abrazos...
>
>Floyd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:02 -0300, you wrote:
>
> >
> >I am sorry Floyd but you have no clue. You should read a little more
> >before you state an opinion that is completely ignorant.  The farmers
> >here are some of the richest people in the country.  They have a 
> very high standard
> >of living.  Agribusiness came to Argentina during the crisis. There are
> >very few small farms left, just like in the U.S.  The difference here is
> >that we have stricter controls over the use of hormones, feed, and
> >genetic engineering.
> >
> >My friend from Texas owns 3 ranches here with his Argentine partners.
> >He is not the exception.  Talk to anyone from Argentina and they will
> >tell you that the money is with farming now.  The guys that set the
> >fires are millionaires.  They were clearing the land to plant more soy.
> >These were grasslands used to feed cattle. These are the same people who
> >last month were protesting the 16% increase on soy export taxes as being
> >unfair.  My friend who is the attorney for one of the provinces said
> >the 16% tax to them is nothing compared to the huge profits they reap.
> >They protested to try and make the president look bad for the tax, and
> >it backfired on them.
> >
> >This situation with the grasslands was a horror story.  You could not
> >see more than 100 meters in front of you.  All major highways were
> >closed.  The subte was closed down.  This was a crisis due to the 
> greed and stupidity
> >of a few people.  There have been over 100 arrested and 3 people 
> so far are being charged.
> >
> >Hospitals were overflowing with people who were asthmatics that 
> could not breathe.  The carbon monoxide was
> >causing us to be eternally tired and they were very fearful of the 
> levels.  My plants on my
> >17th floor balcony were dying.  I was part of the horrendous fire 
> that was in Oakland California in
> >1991 that was considered one of the worst wildfires in the history 
> of the U.S.  It did not even come
> >close to what was happening here.
> >
> >
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Re: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA

[Nina Pesochinsky]

The worse part is that there is no escape for anyone, regardless of 
the person's health conditions.  They are predicting a weather change 
on Tuesday, saying that the smoke should clear quickly.

I wish all of you who are visiting or who live in Buenos Aires to be 
well, and that this disaster passes and does not harm you in any way.

NIna 

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Re: [Tango-L] Smoke worsens over Buenos Aires

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Huck,

Thank you for posting the link.  I didn't know about this.

This made me sad.  Argentine people suffer a lot.  They are not angry 
people.  They are very compassionate.  And they are kind and 
compassionate to each other when all kinds of things happen.

I was in Argentina when the economic crisis just happened.  So many 
people lost so much!  Especially those who already had very 
little.  The people seemed lost and very sad, and maybe a little 
angry, but their anger was nothing in comparison to what anger looks 
like in other countries.  They felt the discouragement and sadness in 
their hearts.  The feeling was very strong and I felt it too.

I become a kinder, nicer person when I am in Argentina.

I wish that the smoke leaves very soon and that the people are well.

Nina 

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[Tango-L] dressing well?

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Joe,

Yes, indeed, one might need a cold shower or two after that.  I would 
love to see that, instead of the amoeba tango so prevalent everywhere now.

Dressing well in tango is not about the clothes.  It is about respect 
- of yourself and others.  The author of the article made it very 
clear that, in his opinion, in bad nuevo, bad clothes communicate no respect.

It is about self-care.  It is also about the stimulus value - knowing 
what effect you have on others and being able to control that.

Personally, I respect a man that can dress himself well (and does not 
need a woman to pick out his ties).  Maybe the bad clothes 
communicate "Save me!" or "I am looking for a home".  Or maybe they 
just communiate that a person does not know himself/herself well and 
how he/she presents himself/herself to the world.  Or maybe they say 
- "Stay away!" or "look at me!", or "I am a rebel!".  Or maybe the 
bad clothes clearly state a "nuevo" gang affilliation.  Do they have 
their colors? :)

Dancing well is not a phenomena isolated from other things about a 
person.  A person cannot dance well and remain a slob in his/her 
life.  Tango does not forgive lying.  If one tries to lie in this 
dance, he/she willl pay with self-esteem.

Personally, if a man has charm, I don't care what he wears, as long 
as he smells good.  But charm is rare and very expensive in a 
non-material way.   It requires a purposeful cultivation of an innate 
talent.  And a very controlled ego.

If a man has charm, he can be a bad dancer and I will not even notice 
it.   But if a man has no charm, then I will hold him to the highest 
standard of dancing.

Best,

Nina




At 01:50 PM 4/17/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:

>Well, let's watch a traditional couple who really knows how to dance
>tango, and who are dressed properly. Keep your fire extinguisher
>handy. You may need a cold shower afterward.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKwI0I8xms&feature=related
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Hi, Val,

Milonga Sans Souci in Denver Colorado.

Traditional seating with men and women seated separately and reserved 
seating for couples.

See you there!

Nina



At 03:11 PM 4/17/2008, Valerie Dark wrote:

>I wish there were reserved seating milongas north of the equator. We
>would pay double the going entrada. But there aren't any.
>
>Val
>--
>Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark
>http://crypticember.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Great article.  Thank you, Huck.

I think that it is OK that they dance that way.  For now.  If they 
are under 30, they probably do not have the inner resources to 
appreciate the finer things  of tango that the author refers 
to.  Some of it may be even scary for them.

But if you give them 10 years or so, they might change.  By that 
time, all of the current traditionalists of whatever age might be 
dead, and so these people will be the future dancers.  And they will 
not dance as they do now.  This stuff is deeply unsatifying after one 
achieves a level of maturity that commands self-respect.

So tango nuevo is a great trick meant to suck in the young and 
innocent, and keep them there until they become smart enough and 
mature enough to be trusted with the real thing.

Nina





At 08:22 PM 4/16/2008, Huck Kennedy wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the 
> popular DNI
> > school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango":
> >
> > http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php
>
>  As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants
>reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when
>finally--Yes!!  It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph.
>Fantastic!
>
>  Bravo, Mr. Clarke.
>
>Huck
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Re: [Tango-L] [Tango-A] SA: Tango Therapy Congress

[Nina Pesochinsky]

This is really cute!  Not that tango is not therapy...

Watching people dance and learn over the last 13 years, I would 
propose with some certainly that everyone gets therapized, one way or 
another, whether they want to or not :).  And things do get worse 
before they get better, just as they sometimes do with more 
traditional forms of therapy.  Neuroticism must be a side effect of 
the treatment.

I assume they do not follow the principles of evidence-based 
practice... I wonder how they measure the outcomes

:)

Best,

Nina



At 04:38 PM 4/1/2008, Janis Kenyon wrote:
>The first international congress of Tango Therapy will be held July 17-19,
>2008, in Rosario, Santa Fe, Argentina.  Those of you who are health
>professionals may want to attend (and combine it time in the milongas).  One
>speaker is from Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri.
>http://www.congresotangoterapia.com/
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Interesting Practcie Tool

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Sticks are a great practice tool.  Daniel Trenner had introduced the 
sticks as a practice instrument to his students at least 12 years 
ago, if not earlier.  Pocho Pizzarro (sp?) danced with the brooms in 
the early 1990's for a video recording of SoloTango.

Is it true that there is nothing new in Aregentine tango?:)

Best,

Nina


At 04:32 PM 3/23/2008, Michael wrote:
>I will go to great lengths to improve my dancing. To improve my 
>molinetes, I've practiced with a circular garbage can. To improve my 
>frame I practiced with a broom handle on my shoulders behind my head 
>with my arms hanging on it. I know I do crazy things, but sometimes, 
>the crazier; the better the tool.
>
>Yesterday, I went to New York for my monthly gift to myself. I saw 
>the show "El Tango y Ella Milonga. In one scene, Anton Gazenbeek 
>came onto the stage with two long, thin, sticks. They must have been 
>at least 5 feet long. He danced with them to nueve de julio. The 
>sticks represented the woman's feet. As he lead the sticks in a 
>molinete, he practiced  barridas, sacadas, displacements, ganchos, 
>and I don't remember the rest. I was really impressed!! And the best 
>part- there were no arguments between the partners, which I 
>sometimes see at practicas. H!!
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>Finally, two weeks to Atlanta Tango Festival
>
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Re: [Tango-L] bad, wrong, Nuevo

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Yup - good nuevo vs. bad nuevo - no fingers digging into the woman's 
side, no distance between partners as if everyone smells bad, no 
looking on the floor as if there was money, and so on.




At 09:12 PM 2/28/2008, Ira Goldstein wrote:
>Hi, Nina--
>
>okay... so for you there's good nuevo & bad nuevo, the difference being
>
> "the sex, the embrace, the man-woman thing" ...
>
>okay--got it.
>
>Thanks!
>
>--Ira
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Re: [Tango-L] bad, wrong, Nuevo

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Yes, that is correct.  It was exactly like that .  Argentines were 
not willing to sell out the sex, the embrace, the man-woman thing, 
for funky movements.   It is only in bad nuevo style that the woman 
became absolutely superfluous.

When a woman can feel a fabulous scent of a man's skin, when he is 
not afraid of her, when his embrace is confident and spirit bright, 
she will forgive him any and all weird tango moves for at least 10 
minutes.  Bad nuevos have not figured this out yet :)

Nina


At 08:14 PM 2/28/2008, Ira Goldstein wrote:
>Hi List, Heather, Nina:
>
>So...the real tango music popped out of an egg in some perfect final
>form...and was accompanied by the birth of the real tango dance in
>some perfect final form; no evolution, no invention, no
>experimentation, no new possibilities created  or  discovered or
>tested or somehow alloyed into it along the way?
>
>--Ira
>
>
>
>At 6:57 PM -0700 2/28/08, Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> >Heather,
> >
> >I agree.  Well-said!
> >
> >This is an excellent, clear explanation.  Thank you!
> >
> >Nina
> >
> >
> >
> >At 04:49 PM 2/28/2008, Heather Whitehead wrote:
> >
> >>The source of Nuevo's inferiority is that it is a movement based
> >>Movement. It is motivated by the biomechanic possibilities. This can
> >>be an intellectual pursuit of physical dexterity that in the end takes
> >>precedence over the music. The aesthetics produced from movements
> >>inspired first from the music, TANGO music, have the lasting power and
> >>beauty of something truer. You will notice many Nuevo dancers find no
> >  >contradiction at all in dancing tango to non-tango music. This is why.
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Re: [Tango-L] FW: women as leader

[Nina Pesochinsky]

La Marshall (in Buenos Aires) - the milonga of all gay 
milongas!  Even all of the gay milongas in the US (which is most of 
the milongas) cannot beat that one.

I was definitely dreaming when I saw two men dance there 
recently.  It was eye candy.  The man who was following put most 
women to shame.  He was amazing.  Beautiful, powerful, 
expressive!  And masculine, being true to who he is. That was the 
moment that testified for me that most women are super boring as followers.

Well,  most women are super boring as leaders as well.  I think that 
men that comment on this topic should learn to follow really well and 
then follow a woman.  I guarantee that these men will be bored to 
tears.  Then, when the following technique of these men becomes good, 
they should try to dance with some awesome Argentine dancer who is 
used to dancing with men.  Then... maybe men should learn to dance 
like that man danced, and men can dance with each other and may never 
want to dance with a woman again.  If I was a man, and could dance 
like those two guys did, I wouldn't want to dance with any women.

Hurray for gay milongas! :)

Nina


At 08:13 PM 2/28/2008, Mario wrote:
>OK...as a Tango newbie but one with great interest in the sensuality
>   of the dance.
>   Here is where I want to cast my vote.
>   If the follower is dreaming and the leader is leading...
>   who cares if the leader is male or female???
>   What has that to do with anything?
>   Two women dancing with the leader leading
>   and the follower with eyes closed dreaming...
>   bring it on and if it is two woman.
>   Mehor!!! great
>   This may be what makes TANGO the Universal Dance!!
>   What could be more sensual???
>   Must we be always limited to;  ...how many men are available?
>   and ...How many men can ...'get it'...??
>   More women dancing lead is the way of the future..
>   Less wars less everything that screws up the human situation.
>   Bring on the Tango,  the embrace and the trance of the perfect dance...
>
>
>
>-
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Re: [Tango-L] bad Nuevo

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Heather,

I agree.  Well-said!

This is an excellent, clear explanation.  Thank you!

Nina



At 04:49 PM 2/28/2008, Heather Whitehead wrote:

>The source of Nuevo's inferiority is that it is a movement based
>Movement. It is motivated by the biomechanic possibilities. This can
>be an intellectual pursuit of physical dexterity that in the end takes
>precedence over the music. The aesthetics produced from movements
>inspired first from the music, TANGO music, have the lasting power and
>beauty of something truer. You will notice many Nuevo dancers find no
>contradiction at all in dancing tango to non-tango music. This is why.
>
>_
>Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge 
>with star power.
>http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
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Re: [Tango-L] Posting & open discussion on Tango-

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Tom is right in the description of movement.  Ten years ago or all 
entradas into a partner's step were regarded as displacements of the 
axis were and called sacadas because tango did not have as much of a 
ed language as it does now.  Later, there was a distinction made 
between entradas and sacadas, where la entrada is walking into a step 
without interrupting the turn, and la sacada is a displacement on the 
back step interrupting the direction of the turn.  In the turn, the 
actual entrada into the step of the woman is not a displacement of 
her axis.   It is just a turn as any other for her.  She does not 
have to do anything except dance the turn.  With la sacada, this is 
no longer so.  The turn is interrupted.  So this is the difference 
between "entering" a step that would happen anyways, vs. "taking 
away" the movement, or a step, or a direction.

NIna

At 10:51 PM 2/22/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote:
>NOT LUNFARDO
>
>Sacar is regular spanish, meaning "take away". To displace is not a
>bad English translation, but desplazar has more the sense of move
>through space.
>
>Sacada is often taught specifically in the turn, but the concept
>certainly applies in other situations. I guess in the nuevo sense
>they're all turns.
>
>Here's an example of a sacada in a straight line: heading to the cross
>in cross-footed, you can deny the cross by entering between the
>follower's legs using the leader's body, leg and foot. This could
>initiate a left turn if a pivot is applied at the same moment, but
>that isn't necessary; you might simply continue the walk.
>
>That raises the point that each stride of a regular parallel walk
>could also be thought of as a sacada, i.e. as the leader steps between
>the follower's legs, he displaces her axis and leg.
>
>
>AXIS, NOT FOOT
>
>The sacada really refers to displacing the axis. The foot or leg
>action is more of a visual element, an optical illusion as someone
>said. The power of the sacada comes from the axis of the leader
>effectively displacing the axis of the follower within the proper
>timing and energy of the movements.
>
>Precision of axis, which in one sense is as simple as just walking in
>a straight line, is a somewhat essential skill.
>
>
>
>On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:56 PM, Keith wrote:
>
> > Well, they say you learn something new everyday. I'm certainly
> > not going to argue about what words mean because my Spanish is
> > limited and my Lunfardo non-existent. But I like to use the correct
> > terminology and I've never heard before that a Sacada must
> > interrupt a turn. I always thought a Sacada was a displacement of
> > a leg or foot by the partner's leg or foot. This can occur at almost
> > any time and not just during turns. I checked this site, which I
> > usually use to check terminology:
> >
> > http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html .
> >
> > Part of the definition of Entrada is ... 'without displacenment' and
> > the definition of Sacada makes no mention of interrupting a turn.
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Posting & open discussion on Tango-

[Nina Pesochinsky]

David,

Yes, back entradas (some call them sacadas, but technically that is 
not correct because sacadas interrupt a turn, and these do not) can 
easily be danced in close embrace.  The technical training that is 
required for ease and grace is tremendous.

There is a huge confusion about "styles" in tango.  Some "styles" are 
nothing more than bad form, bad technique, and, on the whole, bad 
dancing.  If people want that "style", fine.  People often select a 
"style" without having the technique to build it on.  Dancing in a 
"style" without a technique is a lie, a cheap immitation of something 
that could be fabulous.  I am all for tango nuevo in good form with 
technique and a lot of training.  A good dancer should be able to 
dance in any style equally well.

Gustavo, Fabian, Chicho and some others have technique that allows 
them to have a true style, chosen by them and not by default because 
they cannot do anything else.  And they dance it and show it off only 
in performances.

Most of those who immitate them and call themselves "nuevo" dancers, 
usually do not have such technique, tend to be quite lazy in regard 
to mastering the dance in a technical sense because they cannot dance 
anything else, are usually aweful to dance with, look terrible and 
appear to be deaf, since most of the movements tend to happen outside 
of the music.

Originally, nuevo tango was something very exciting.  We all did it 
and worked like demons.  And loved it.  Now it is just a lot of bad 
dancing (with a few exceptions).

Best,

Nina



At 05:47 PM 2/22/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >>The vocabulary when dancing with an embrace is infinite. Nothing is
>excluded
> >>on pure technical grounds...
>
>Perhaps I am showing my ignorance, but I haven't seen too many back saccadas
>or colgadas led while remaining in close embrace.
>
> >>It is bound to offend when people who do not follow the protocols and
> >>traditions of tango insist that their dance be held in the same regard as
> >>Argentine tango. It's like Pizza Hut demanding that their food be
>classified
> >>as Italian cuisine.
>
>Neil - I am not intending this as a personal attack and do apologize in
>advance if it would appear to be so.  I don't know you and it is not a
>criticism of you, but rather a comment on what appears to be a common
>attitude on this list.  OTOH, I'll be the first to admit that I might simply
>have misunderstood your remarks.  But with that said:
>
>I find your remark to be quite insulting, bound to offend people who dance
>in any style other than whatever unspoken style it is that you consider the
>one and only true Argentine tango.  If that one true style you refer to is
>close embrace/milonguero style, then the implication is that Fabian Salas,
>Chicho, Sebastian Arce, Gustavo Naveira, Sylvina Vals and hundreds of other
>other wonderfully skilled and excellent dancers are not tango dancers, or if
>they are, they are offensive to your taste and are the dance equivalent of
>fast food.  If the one true style you are referring to is Nuevo, this is a
>similarly offensive statement.
>
>I don't understand the purpose of such a remark unless perhaps to shut down
>open discussion of any dance to Tango music that doesn't align with your
>personal taste.
>
>With apologies if I misunderstood,
>
>David Thorn
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'

[Nina Pesochinsky]

The legends told in 1996, dating back to 1983, had it that 8CB was 
invented in the spirit of balloom dances to give AT a point of 
reference where to start, when no one seemed to be able to find any 
other point of reference for the improvisational nature of 
tango.  Stage has influenced that a lot as well, as modern dancers 
tried to figure out what this dance was when it returned to 
popularity in the early 80s.

Following the history of development of certain movements in tango, 
another legend told that the cross was invented in the late 
30s/early40s as an entrance into the turns, which became complicated 
as the music has changed with two prominent orchestras.

When dancers began to look closer at the improvisational nature of 
tango, it became clear that there is no basic step, only fundamental 
principles, such as crossed and parallel relationship to the woman's 
feet, and a few conventions, such as the cross and the sequence of 
the woman's steps in the turns.

Teaching an 8CB is alright, ecxcept that it is a slow and very 
old-fashioned way of teaching and dancing.  It is not as efficient as 
teaching can be when focused on basic principles instead of combinations.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Nina



At 09:39 AM 2/13/2008, you wrote:
>Nina, and everybody else,
>
>This has got nothing to do with Oscar Casas. He's just one Argentine
>teacher who I happened to come across on YouTube teaching the 8CB.
>I'm talking about something much bigger and not specific to any
>particular teacher. I want to know why American teachers advocate
>teaching Tango differently than Argentine teachers. And, right now,
>I'm using the 8CB as an example. Argentines teach it and nobody has
>a problem. Americans teach it and, it seems, everybody has a problem.
>I just want to know why. Personally, I think the problem is the way it's
>taught, whereas teachers on this list say the 8CB is the problem and it
>shoudn't be taught.
>
>That's what I want to talk about, but it seems like nobody else does.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
>  On Wed Feb 13 23:49 , Nina Pesochinsky  sent:
>
> >Keith,
> >
> >You are doing a fine job wasting your own time.  If I have not heard
> >of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good
> >enough or famous enough to talk about. :)
> >
>
>
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[Tango-L] Keith's questions

[Nina Pesochinsky]

I am jumping up and down to answer Keith's questions, hoping to beat 
Nancy to it.

First, an example of American Know-how and influence on milongas in Argentina:

Americans brought to Argentina a concept of a milonga that Argentines 
call Milonga Gay.  La Marshall on Wednesday nights is such a 
milonga.  They play good traditional music.  After each tanda or two, 
there is an alternative tanda.  Men can dance with men and women with 
women.  Men can also dance with women and women can lead men.  Anyone 
can invite anyone, verbally or otherwise.  Basically, anything goes.

This is not an Argentine invention.  Milonga Gay is an American 
invention embraced by the Argentines.  La Marshall is super popular 
with lots of great dancers and teachers in attendance.  In the US, 
practically every milonga is Milonga Gay.  So who knows better how to 
create Milonga Gay - Americans or Argentines? :)  I think that the 
Argentines are going to steal the whole concept and then claim that 
it was their invention.

On another note:
Americans think that they are better at teaching tango because they 
become Argentine prior to starting to teach.

NIna




At 08:44 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote:
>Nancy,
>
>This is exactly what I thought would happen, but hoped wouldn't.
>Americans immediately on the defensive, putting words in my mouth
>and making no attempt to answer my questions.
>
>Nancy, is there any American alive today who knows more about
>Tango than Oscar Casas? Simple question. And, as I said - he's
>just one example. The real question is, who knows more about
>teaching and dancing Tango - Argentines or Americans?
>Another simple question.
>
>And, yes I teach. And I do my very best to do it the way many
>Argentines have taught me. I just want to understand why
>Americans think they have a better way of teaching Tango.
>
>That's all I'm asking. Can anyone answer the question, please.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'

[Nina Pesochinsky]

Keith,

You are doing a fine job wasting your own time.  If I have not heard 
of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good 
enough or famous enough to talk about. :)

Just because someone is teaching at El Beso, and just because this 
person is Argentine, means nothing.  They are dime-a-dozen these 
days, of all ages and from all eras.

By the way, the dancing at El Beso is also kinda unpredictable at 
times.  Not a good explample. Keith.  Try again.

Nina


At 08:30 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote:
>Don't waste our time Nina - never heard of Google? Oscar teaches
>at El Beso. Is your next question  what's El Beso?
>
>A better question would be who's Tom Stermitz.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
>  On Wed Feb 13 22:58 , Nina Pesochinsky  sent:
>
> >Who is Oscar Casas?
>
>
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