Re: Who cares is rogues are real faces/people?

[Kevin Coates]

Hello Michael,

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:05:30 -0700 (10:05 PM here), you [MLW] wrote:

MLW> I am confused why it matters if rogue pictures show a real face,
MLW> or a real body with no face, or, in one exception, a drawing.

Personally, I prefer to see a human face because I'm interested in
seeing a likeness of the author not a farm animal or avatar. I prefer
not to store images that have no significance for me on my system.

MLW> . By the way, how does anyone know if the picture being
MLW> displayed in the upper right hand corner is really me?...

No guarantee that its you. What I did is upload the same photo that is
included in my PGP key if downloaded from my web server. (Some key
servers strip photos). At least this way people have a little more
assurance that the person that signs the messages looks like the
person in the header pane. :)

-- 
Kevin Coates
Dewitt, NY USA

(see kludges for my pgp key)


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Re: Sorry, but what is the rogue?

[James Senick]

Hello MaXxX,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, at 00:56:18 [GMT +0200] (which was 6:56:18
PM in NY, USA) MaXxX wrote:

>> Fetch alone can't trigger anything, to my knowledge.

> Oh yes, it can. It's an HTTP request, so it can easily be:
> 1. traced - after all, the owner's IP is verified
>  1.1. traced for specific user's IP - spam sent with unique ID
>numbers, acting as involuntary "reading receipt"
> 2. counted - again, for benchmarking how many users have TB installed

Agreed but for all the above but none of these trigger a thing
locally. And still, this can only occur from servers I
designate.  That means *me* specifying what happens on *my*
machine...not yours, and not those of any other TB users.

Perhaps these are good arguments for administrative control but
not for the tossing of the auto-download option.

> 3. overflowed - with chunked content-type, and evil chunk lengths,
>  some fetchers might get confused

This is an interesting one. I'm interested to hear Leif, Marck,
and 9Val on this. Without understanding exactly how TB handles
the transaction, I'd still say you're thinking more in terms of
something like IE which could allow ActiveX type script to
execute. With TB, I'm thinking that all the fetch command does
is retrieve the image and mark its notation. It alone probably
doesn't have any part in triggering the display.

Also, I was once sent a message with a header that was too long.
 TB refused to receive it.  I can't think of any reason why one
would believe that RitLabs' HTTP handling would be any
different.  I concede that this is entirely faith based.

> Not to mention that this makes TB! a "wormhole". Suppose that a user
> has his machine firewalled. They stupidly click a download link on
> some webpage, and install some trojan. The trojan can hardly try to
> connect to the outside world, as it would be detected by the firewall.
> But it can safely wait for TB to download new data, with new
> instructions, new payload, perhaps...

That's not a TB vulnerability. That's a browser vulnerability.
Please, someone count the number of steps a user must take to
have rogue image auto downloading become even a slight danger
to themselves. Don't forget that they must first start by
enabling rogue display and auto-download which are disabled by
default and then allow another application's vulnerability to be
exploited. This last part is key because it is at that point
that *anything* on the system can be compromised...rogues or no
rogues.

Security, IMO, is not necessarily protecting every user from
themselves. It's more the provision of tools and defaults. For
example, just because I can go to the Address Book, click on Joe
Blow, click on personal, and click "Go" to launch Joe's possibly
compromised Web site that I would have to enter does not mean we
should get rid of the ADB or the Personal Web Homepage entry.


-- 
Best regards,
James
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.stamp-co.com


The Bat! v.2.12 RC/3
Windows XP build 2600 
AMD Athlon 1Ghz 1.0 Gb RAM


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Re: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Frank,

Monday, July 12, 2004, 9:13:35 AM, you wrote:
Frank> Regarding the latest 'improvements' of TB better say: shouldn't
Frank> have anything to do with port 80

Has nothing to do with TB specifically. Any mail program that HREFS
images uses port 80. That's pretty much every e-mail client that
displays HTML messages *except* TB.


-- 
Leif Gregory (TB list moderator and fellow end user).

Tagline of the day:
Some days I feel like I'm just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Using The Bat! 2.12 RC/3 under Windows 2000 5.0
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Re: Who cares is rogues are real faces/people?

[Plan9]

Monday, July 12, 2004, 10:05:30 PM, Michael wrote:

MLW> I am confused why it matters if rogue pictures show a real face, or a
MLW> real body with no face, or, in one exception, a drawing.  Does my
MLW> email have any less meaning in this list because I use a cartoon or a
MLW> drawing of einstein?

On hindsight I think the bigger issue is "why" show pictures at all?

It seems that the confusion of what to be shown is caused because
there is no consensus on why.  When there is no single why, then there
can be many, many different interpretations of what is to be shown.

For me I like to form a mental image of the person that I am
communicating with.  It helps me understand that the author of a
message is a real person and not an artificial being represented by
an avatar or drawing and that they should be treated as a real person
whether in an e-mail or face-face.  Therefore for my the "why" needs
a face for the "what".

MLW> What value is added by using a real picture of me?  By the way, how
MLW> does anyone know if the picture being displayed in the upper right
MLW> hand corner is really me?  The only requirement seems to be a photo of
MLW> a human.  No other verification is used.  So, if you are going to
MLW> trust me to use a photo of me, why not trust me to use an avatar that
MLW> accurately represents me?

If you want to trick me then that is for you to deal with. Even
face-to-face you could still trick me. Some people lie all the time
and provide false identification.

Should this whole issue be taken to tbot and not clutter tbbeta? It
seems like a tbot kind of topic.

-- 
Regards,
 Plan9
"On the seventh day He brewed beer"



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IMAP: Thread view

[Charles M. Gerungan]

Imagine a thread of three messages, all of them unread.

If I click on a message, it doesn't get marked as read (by switching the
font attribute from bold to roman) after two seconds. This will only
happen when all messages belonging to the thread are read. This makes it
hard to see which messages are read and which aren't.

If I mark the message as read from within another client, TB! does show
messages as read within a thread.

Is this an IMAP sync problem or does it always work like this?

-- 
Regards, Charles.


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Who cares is rogues are real faces/people?

[Michael L. Wilson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Greetings All,

I am confused why it matters if rogue pictures show a real face, or a
real body with no face, or, in one exception, a drawing.  Does my
email have any less meaning in this list because I use a cartoon or a
drawing of einstein?  Since this only works for bat users, and I
personally know no one who uses the bat, the picture are lost on my
friends anyway.

What value is added by using a real picture of me?  By the way, how
does anyone know if the picture being displayed in the upper right
hand corner is really me?  The only requirement seems to be a photo of
a human.  No other verification is used.  So, if you are going to
trust me to use a photo of me, why not trust me to use an avatar that
accurately represents me?

- --
Michael L. Wilson, MBA :usflag:
Ecclesiastic Philosopher
Teacher
Critic


"Big Brother is watching" - George Orwell (1984)
- 
Exploiting The Bat! version 2.12 RC/4
Hamstrung with Windows XP 5.1 (2600)
Surfing with MyIE2
Scanning with Nod32 anti-virus
Sifting with SpamPal anti-Spam
Hiding behind Outpost Pro Firewall

Ponder this: People in glass houses should always wear clothes.

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Version: PGP SDK 3.2.2
Comment: ""

iQA/AwUBQPNDbG2u7N+Qh+ieEQIE8gCffumOwBDtsUav3VSnJ1txxsro6fUAnRbD
mkzCJcUC/HlLXZx2lobqMcQ7
=/obx
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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Re: IMAP: Delete key still doesn't always work in RC/4

[Gary]

Hi Charles,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:45:39 +0200 UTC (7/12/2004, 8:45 PM -0500 UTC my
time), Charles M. Gerungan wrote:

C> Subject says it all.

ditto ---  10-4    confirmed


-- 
Gary





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Re: IMAP: Delete key still doesn't always work in RC/4

[Kevin Amazon]

Hi Charles M. Gerungan

-
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, at 03:45:39 [GMT +0200] (which was 6:45 PM where
I live) you wrote:
> Subject says it all.

Yes, that appears to be the case.

-- 
Best Regards,
Kevin

Using The Bat! v2.12 RC/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1





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Re: RC/3: Focus problem

[Miroslav Florensen]

Hello 9Val,

MF>> (WinXP Prof. SP1 - TB! v2.12/rc3)
> Appeared in RC3?

mmhh, perhaps it was the rc/1


-- 
best regards
Miroslav




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Re: Account switching and passwords

[Wolffe]

Greetings BatPeople,

Monday, July 12, 2004, 7:08:24 PM, Mike wrote:

M> I've  found  that  right clicking on The Bat! icon in the tray
M> and  trying to switch active accounts also brings up a password dialog
M> on  non-password  protected  accounts.   Not a terrible bug, but a bug
M> nonetheless.

  confirmed .. none of my accounts are password protected yet the
  popup appears
-- 
Cheers,
 \\'   

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.12 RC/4
under Windows XP ver5.1 Build 2600 
using a Pentium P4 2.8Ghz, 512MB RAM with cable modem 



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Re: RC/3: Focus problem

[Miroslav Florensen]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,

> What's happening and can somebody confirm?

I had this phenomenon two three times and thought it was because of my
computer. Apparent I am nevertheless not the only one - thus I confirm
your description.

(WinXP Prof. SP1 - TB! v2.12/rc3)

-- 
best regards
Miroslav


BAT-MAIL.DE.VU - http://bat-mail.de.vu
News-Ticker: http://thebat.orgavision.de/bat-mail.xml



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IMAP: Delete key still doesn't always work in RC/4

[Charles M. Gerungan]

Subject says it all.

-- 
Regards, Charles.


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Re[2]: Concerns about Smileys and Roguemoticons

[Francis Segond]

Bonjour Thomas,

  Il est indéniable que Thomas Fernandez a proféré le
  lundi 12 juillet 2004 à 22:06:54 GMT +0700

TF> I don't believe you. ;-)

Well, I call translation the act of interpreting English into my
native French. This happens slightly quicker than, say, understanding
a Bavarian waiter during the Oktoberfest, but it's still a translation
work :-)

TF> It has been discussed (you may have missed that thread) and I hope is
TF> being worked on.

You're right, this point is being discussed; but what about using a
common subdirectory or file for both, the addressbook photos and the
Roguemoticons?

TF> Avatars and anime-representations of dinosaurs are not the idea;
TF> if they were, I would have been totally against the images or at
TF> least wouldn't use them (like the smileys).

That's the reason why I dropped the Monty Python "dinosaur" and
uploaded a boring ID-photo of mine :-)

TF> "If anybody has been featured on a magazine cover, then this magazine
TF> cover or the picture of the Rogue taken for that cover, is admissable
TF> regardless of whether the face can be seen, as long as it is not an
TF> "adult" magazine." So, the famous (by now) Melissa is not an
TF> exception but conforms to the rule.

I was once on the front page of my local newspaper during an oldtimer
rally (the fith from the left, behind the red MG TD). Does this count? ;-)

Francis
-- 
Best regards

FRANCIS J. SEGOND

Webpage: http://faustroll.net, http://butsu.org 
PGP-Key: http://www.segond.de/pubkey/segond.asc



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Re: Sorry, but what is the rogue?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Richard,

Sunday, July 11, 2004, 2:10:14 PM, you wrote:
Richard> Now it does, yes. But my comment took reference to
Richard> :
Richard> ---[Quote]---
Richard> Should rogues be changed for an X-Rogue: url_of_my_jpg instead of
Richard> actual :tag: ?
Richard> ---[/Quote]--

Richard> If you realize this you have to trust to this url.

I agree with you here. I don't think that'll happen, because it really
wouldn't be all that much different from HREF'ing an image at that
point, and RITLabs has been pretty staunch about that.

Richard> But it was suggested by this idea.

Right, see above comment.



-- 
Leif Gregory (TB list moderator and fellow end user).

Tagline of the day:
Support Search and Rescue.Get Lost!

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Re: Concerns about Smileys and Roguemoticons

[Plan9]

Monday, July 12, 2004, 2:32:21 PM, Dennis wrote:

DH> Quoting Plan9 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> But it's not a fair rule since many of use have not been featured
>> on the front of a magazine. It creates an elite group that excludes
>> the rest of us (discrimination).

DH> Well, let's think about this... There is always the police mug
DH> shots and wanted posters, driver's license and other
DH> identification images, image captures from incriminating videos
DH> (minus the incriminating bit, of course), and other sources.
DH> Of course, we'll need a rule regarding a limit to how much an
DH> image can be retouched--wrinkles removed, facial hair added, and
DH> so forth.

You missed the point completely by not quoting enough of the message.
My reply was to an e-mail from Thomas F. where he said in
 mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
TF> "If anybody has been featured on a magazine cover, then this magazine
TF> cover or the picture of the Rogue taken for that cover, is admissable
TF> regardless of whether the face can be seen, as long as it is not an
TF> "adult" magazine." So, the famous (by now) Melissa is not an
TF> exception but conforms to the rule. 

"Whether or not the face is shown!!!"  that was the point that I was
trying to show was unfair.  Not where a photo of a face originated.

-- 
Regards,
 Plan9
Two strings walk into a bar. The first string says to the bartender:
 "Bartender, I'll have a beer. u.5n$x5t?*&4ru!2[sACC~ErJ".
 The second string says: "Pardon my friend, he isn't NULL terminated".



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Account switching and passwords

[Mike Pesce]

I've  found  that  right clicking on The Bat! icon in the tray
and  trying to switch active accounts also brings up a password dialog
on  non-password  protected  accounts.   Not a terrible bug, but a bug
nonetheless.
-- 
Mike
Using The Bat! v2.12 RC/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1



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Re: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Paul Cartwright]

On Monday, July 12, 2004, 7:30 PM, you wrote:

MDP> Allie must have gone to the website and downloaded the latest zips,
MDP> unpacked them into the TB folder then pressed C-A-S-T. You don't say
MDP> that you did that. You should also delete the old PDSF2.msl file in
MDP> case it is confusing the issue.

MDP> FWIW, I also see you very clearly.

and you are back to your old picture? or is it just that I am finally
catching up to reality :)
and yes, I now see my image:)


-- 
 Paul
Using The Bat! v2.12 RC/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600
Service Pack 1
Jun2004 (4.1.418)  (avast! version number)
0429-0 (12.07.2004) (avast! DB version number)
4.1.418 (avast! plugin version number)
 







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Re[2]: IMAP: Browsing messages still being disrupted (Was: Re: The Bat! 2.12 RC/3 is now available)

[Bobi Jam]

Hello Allie,

On Monday, July 12, 2004, at 05:50:07[GMT [EMAIL PROTECTED] (which was 3:50
where I live) Allie wrote:
Allie> As a matter of fact, yes

Allie> I just went to Folder -> Browse deleted messages. In that message list
Allie> there are the last 6 or so messages that I had replied to. I guess
Allie> those are the messages I replied to since starting TB!.

That's exactly what I try to report as a bug.

-- 
Best regards,
 Bobi Jam

TB! 2.12 RC/3 on Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1



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Re: Sorry, but what is the rogue?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Allie,

Monday, July 12, 2004, 5:43:17 AM, you wrote:
Allie> A worm or something that edits the file, and uses TB! to fetch
Allie> its payload or whatever else it needs to complete its task.

It's possible. Anything is possible. What if a worm infects TB and
uses TB on port 25 or 110 or 143 to download what it needs. There's
really no difference. Granted there are checksum fingerprints in most
good firewalls that would detect a change to TBs code, but if a
virus generated an e-mail and only used TB as the transport mechanism
for that e-mail, the e-mail could go to an address that auto-responds
with a file the virus needs to complete its nasty work.

The firewall wouldn't detect this as there was no change to the TB
executable, and since the virus isn't directly accessing the internet,
the firewall wouldn't detect that either (in most firewalls).

Allie> Is that silly? Unnecessary? Impractical for someone to exploit.
Allie> I don't know really but it seems concerning.

It ranks right there with anything else we do on a computer. If
someone is determined to hack you, it's gonna happen. It's only a
matter of time.

Allie> I don't see how this can be compared to POP3 or IMAP, the idea
Allie> being that TB! fetches from those servers.

I explained that above. Paul and I already proved TB wouldn't execute
an executable when referenced by the smileys system.

Allie> The difference is that rogue service would be doing simple file
Allie> fetching. Does it do a simple extension check?

It does on the server, and it's something that could be added I think
easily enough by RITLabs within TB. Heck, it might even be able to be
tied in with the TB security concerning extensions when you try to
launch an attachment.



-- 
Leif Gregory (TB list moderator and fellow end user).

Tagline of the day:
Spleen:  The OTHER purple meat!

Using The Bat! 2.12 RC/3 under Windows 2000 5.0
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Re: Sorry, but what is the rogue?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Marck,

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:55:41 +0100 GMT (12/07/2004, 15:55 +0700 GMT),
Marck D Pearlstone wrote:

MDP> Lesse ... setting aside the issue of mail server access, TB connects
MDP> to a fixed, named server under your control to fetch smileys, rogues
MDP> and PGP keys administrated by a responsible administrator. The name
MDP> of the rogue may be specifiable by the sender, but the source is
MDP> not. Exploitable? Not from where I'm looking at it.

A spammer sends a mail that triggers the download to millions of TB
users. They all connect to the same site, a DDoS attack.

Maybe not, because they won't connect all at the same time. But the
millions of TB users may not be so unrealistic in the future.

Or how about this: A spammer uploads a pic that has code it in. When
it is downloaded, an automatic message with the email address,
rogue-code, and show size will be sent to the spammer. The one who
downloaded it will be flooded with ads for shoes.

Or, the domain is redirected by a hacker. Instead of downloading a
roguemoticon, the user downloads malware. Every time he looks at any
picture, his credit card details are sent to the malware author and
the fridge stops working.

MDP> It's seems pretty clear to me. OE = full sender control. TB = full
MDP> user control. TB wins! (as usual).

A bit simple (highly unusual for you).

(don't hit me)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Baseball is 90% mental; the other half is physical. (Yogi Berra)

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Re: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Frank Dzicher]

Hello Manuel, hello The Bat! - Betalist,

* Manuel Breitfeld wrote:

> A mail-programm has nothing to do with port 80.

Regarding the latest 'improvements' of TB better say: shouldn't have
anything to do with port 80

-- 
cheers
Frank



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Re: to moderators

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Marek,

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:06:46 +0200 GMT (12/07/2004, 16:06 +0700 GMT),
Marek Mikus wrote:

>> since 1999 and I remember a neat .exe-file of about 3 MB, compared to
>> the mammoth 8 MB of the actual version - I just wonder how much
>> junk-code remains in some hidden corners of it!)

MM> exe file was compressed with UPX packer until 1.60 version AFAIR, but
MM> there were some problems with this and next versions are uncompressed.

Hm. The first TB I downloaded (1.34a) fit onto a 3 1/2" floppy. I
think UPX packing was discussed only later.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Bureaucrats do not change the course of the ship of state. They merely
adjust the compass.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.12 RC/3
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM




 Current beta is v2.12 RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Frank Dzicher]

Hello Thomas, hello The Bat! - Betalist,

* Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> Good point! How to I tell TB to "download new pics now"?

Create a plain textfile in TB's home-dir and name it
'auto-load-urls.txt' containing the following line:

http://www.pcwize.com/thebat/getrogue.php

But you won't see/autodownload *my* new picture because the rogue
masters didn't approve it (maybe I'm to ugly :-) ) and I resign to argue
in this point with them.

-- 
cheers
Frank



 Current beta is v2.12 RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/

Re: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Marck D Pearlstone]

Dear Kevin,

@12-Jul-2004, 08:03 -0700 (12-Jul 16:03 UK time) Kevin Amazon said
to Marck:

>> You won't see /that/ picture. It's not approved and has since been
>> withdrawn. One way of getting new pictures is to do a weekly refresh
>> of the Rogues.zip and overwrite your current set.

> Ok, now I'm a little confused. If I have to do a weekly refresh of the
> Rogues.zip file then what is the purpose of the auto-download feature.
> Obviously, I am missing something here.

Auto-download gets you /missing/ pictures. If you have the
pictures, auto-download will never get you /updated/ pictures.

-- 
Cheers -- //.arck D Pearlstone --List moderator and fellow end user
TB! v2.12 RC/3 on Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1
'

pgpaciNIsrQXX.pgp
Description: PGP signature

 Current beta is v2.12 RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/

Re[2]: Rouge info mail 'Your Roguemoticons was disapproved'

[Manuel Breitfeld]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,

on 12.07.2004 at 16:45 you wrote:

FD>> Now I've updated my photo but you can't see my face :-)
TF> Good point! How to I tell TB to "download new pics now"?
Yoh shouldn't have the possibility to tell this TB!
A mail-programm has nothing to do with port 80.
-- 
Best regards,
  Manu, http://www.batboard.net

The Bat! 2.12 RC/3, Windows XP Prof. 5.1 Build 2600 SP1


 Current beta is v2.12 RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/