Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull everyone else, on 08-Okt-2006 at 23:35 you (Mary Bull) wrote: As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can change the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I assume you had already begun typing the actual message, and then changed the recipient. Well you are right, but I had only glanced down into the message body and seen that the greeting said Hello ssis, so I put my sister's name in there. Only then did I glance up and see in the To field only the one word ssis. As I told before, I did a back-space, tabbed down, the address went in, I just tried to reproduce this. Even when I move into the message editor and haven't made any changes (not a single keystroke) and then go back to the header pane to change the TO field, the new template is applied. Maybe you accidentally typed something (even if its only one letter + backspace to delete it again). You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is meaningful to me, here. Oh, I understand the problem, but I see no way around it. Either the already existing message body (if any changes were made) is preserved, or the template is applied again, clearing the editor window. Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? YES/NO -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug. Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 12:14 PM, you wrote: As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can change the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I assume you had already begun typing the actual message, and then changed the recipient. Well you are right, but I had only glanced down into the message body and seen that the greeting said Hello ssis, so I put my sister's name in there. Only then did I glance up and see in the To field only the one word ssis. As I told before, I did a back-space, tabbed down, the address went in, I just tried to reproduce this. Even when I move into the message editor and haven't made any changes (not a single keystroke) and then go back to the header pane to change the TO field, the new template is applied. Maybe you accidentally typed something (even if its only one letter + backspace to delete it again). Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message body. I changed Hello siss, to Hello Sue! So, that's why I said, You are correct.' My problem is that this is a trap waiting for the unwary or the naive--or even a new TB! user--when it comes to the encryption of sensitive material. I can't trust myself not to make a typo again like that and fix the greeting in the message body without thinking and then notice the To field and go up and type the handle which calls the address correctly. I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every time, in my hierarchy of priorities. You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is meaningful to me, here. Oh, I understand the problem, but I see no way around it I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE in their templates over addresses without that macro might be possible to code. That would solve my problem of the %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE being over-ridden in the Outbox when a Saved Draft there is opened for a little more editing, also. Two birds with one stone? ... Either the already existing message body (if any changes were made) is preserved, or the template is applied again, clearing the editor window. I understand that that's the current hard-coded feature. But it's a security hazard, all the same. :soapbox: :) Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? YES/NO Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull everyone else, on 09-Okt-2006 at 19:41 you (Mary Bull) wrote: Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message body. I changed Hello siss, to Hello Sue! Ah. I have overlooked that detail. I see it now in the paragraph you wrote, but it was difficult for me to spot it. :-) I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every time, in my hierarchy of priorities. Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure you typed in the correct handle. Or add some subtle change in the signature, greetings, or somewhere else in the template that uses encryption, so that you have a visual confirmation that you're indeed sending the message encrypted. I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE in their templates over addresses without that macro might be possible to code. That would require to sorta classify the macros. I can't really say if this is a convenient way to handle this issue, since the personal preference of users may differ, and the last thing I need would be another configuration dialogue to classify the macros (just thinking the idea to the end). Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? YES/NO Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! Maybe the other members of the list should chime in here so that eventually a reasonable wish can be formed out of this. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) The crisis of today is the joke of tomorrow. -- H. G. Wells Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 12:57 PM, you wrote: Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message body. I changed Hello siss, to Hello Sue! Ah. I have overlooked that detail. I see it now in the paragraph you wrote, but it was difficult for me to spot it. :-) I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every time, in my hierarchy of priorities. Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure you typed in the correct handle. Or add some subtle change in the signature, greetings, or somewhere else in the template that uses encryption, so that you have a visual confirmation that you're indeed sending the message encrypted. No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the To-field handle function. You do know what that is? I'm too old and too much a creature of habit to trust my use of it any more, with this trap embedded in it. Remember, I'm going on 80 years old. I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE in their templates over addresses without that macro might be possible to code. That would require to sorta classify the macros. I can't really say if this is a convenient way to handle this issue, since the personal preference of users may differ, and the last thing I need would be another configuration dialogue to classify the macros (just thinking the idea to the end). Well, I'm not a programmer, of course. :) Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? YES/NO Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! Maybe the other members of the list should chime in here so that eventually a reasonable wish can be formed out of this. That's why I put it up here at TBBETA. If it were only myself, I'd shut up. I've learned my *own* lesson. Baptism of fire, no less! TB! is (one hopes) constantly gaining new customers. I'd hate for this to pop up with no warning in the face of one of them, and with an encrypted message to their bank, for instance. Bad scene. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: Bug in template called by handle function?
10/9/2006 2:13 PM Hi Alexander, On 10/9/2006 Alexander S. Kunz wrote: ASK Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As ASK Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure ASK you typed in the correct handle. It has been my experience for 64 years to see that when something is started inappropriately it tends to finish that way, especially when attempting to automate functions. Because of this, I view starting from the beginning as the only prudent way to insure the appropriate. -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.85.03 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.1.2600 No IMAP OTFE Opera 8.5 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull everyone else, on 09-Okt-2006 at 20:12 you (Mary Bull) wrote: No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the To-field handle function. You do know what that is? Sure, I'm using it all the time. I just tried to show an alternative. shrug -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. - Bokonon Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 3:36 PM, you wrote: No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the To-field handle function. You do know what that is? Sure, I'm using it all the time. Okay, then do you have someone you correspond with regularly, using a handle, in whose template you have %SIGNCOMPLETE? For those whom I have that macro in the template, I shall no longer use the handle. I'll bring up a message from that folder, right-click, and choose Write a message to this address. Simple as that. No more handle-using, because my brain is subject to short-term inattention, and I think it's a result of aging. I am 79 years old. I just tried to show an alternative. shrug For anyone else, it would be a very good alternative. However, I did not bring this possible bug, which turned out to be a feature, to TBBETA to get personal help. I brought it to try to solve a security risk--infrequently though it may pop up for TB! users: look at me, it's been 4 years before my attention lapsed and I got bit. Thanks for discussing it with me, Alex. I'm going to start a new thread now, proposing my feature wish. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
New Feature Wish
Hello Everyone! Here are the steps to replicate the problem that I think will be helped by having my feature wish implemented: 1) In your address book put a nickname for one of your entries. 2) To the New Message properties for that entry include in the template the macro: %SIGNCOMPLETE. 3) Start a new message to this contact by typing the nickname (the handle) 4) But deliberately make a typo. NOTE: the handle has no domain with it; until you tab down, the address called by the handle is not in the To: field; if you make a typo, no address will be called. EXAMPLE: The handle is sis. Type siss in the To: field and tab down. 5) You will see that the default Account template is called, which does not include $SIGNCOMPLETE. And, unless you have previously modified it, the greeting will appear as you tab into the message body: Hello siss, 6) Delete the extra s. 7) Go back to the To: field and delete the extra s there. The address of your contact will then appear as you tab down. 8) Proceed to compose and send the message. Send it. Off it will go, unencrypted. Now, of course, if I had noticed that the address had not been invoked by my handle with the typo in it, I would have corrected it in the To: field before tabbing on into the message body and correcting the greeting. But, for four years this template has worked, and until today, I had never made a typo in the handle. For some reason I had an attention lapse. I cannot guarantee to myself that I will not have another lapse of attention. Therefore, my feature wish is for an Alert Box, which, when I change the handle in the To: field, after typing in the message body because my attention was distracted, will pop up. It might say something like (and a big thank-you to Alexander Kunz for this suggestion): === Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? YES/NO === Now, I do not plan to use handles with contacts for whom I have the macro %SIGNCOMPLETE in the New Message template--not any more. My safety will lie in bringing up a previous message, highlighting the address of that contact, and choosing Write a message to this address. However, this truly is a trap--albeit an esoteric one. The alert box might prevent some newbie (or not-so-newbie) TB! user from sending unencrypted sensitive material to his/her banker or accountant, when he/she intended to send it encrypted. All comments to this idea for a feature wish are welcome. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: New Feature Wish
Howdy Mary, Monday, October 9, 2006, 11:10:35 PM, Mary wrotened: MB Therefore, my feature wish is for an Alert Box, which, when I change MB the handle in the To: field, after typing in the message body because MB my attention was distracted, will pop up. MB It might say something like (and a big thank-you to Alexander Kunz for MB this suggestion): MB === MB Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one MB that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the MB editor and apply the new template? YES/NO MB === I've been watching this topic in this thread and the other for a while. And to be honest I am not sure on which side of the fence I sit. However if it is a problem, then we are missing a large part of the argument. I know Mary's point of view is focusing on the security aspect (which I believe to be a slightly erroneous aspect of the argument as I don't believe any security will be able to prevent anyone determined enough from reading your mail, but then I have not really looked into or read up about the security aspect and this is not on the topic we are here to discuss), however the point about template being applied after editing the message body is interesting. Personally having several accounts with slightly different templates for each one I have noticed this problem previously. If I have one account currently selected, and viewing from the mail ticker select a message, that has been sent to another account, TB will invoke the template that responds to the account selected in the main TB window. Now as far as I can see this is a similar situation to Mary's, where TB invokes the wrong template, or rather a template that we didn't want. I haven't really thought of whether this behaviour is feature or bug. I'm just used to it. Just my (largely irrelevant) 2p. -- Have Fun, Ben Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashing The Bat! v3.86.02 falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 The dyslexic theorist suffering insomnia is still up all night pondering if there is a Dog. Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: New Feature Wish
Hello Ben! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 5:54 PM, you wrote: Personally having several accounts with slightly different templates for each one I have noticed this problem previously. If I have one account currently selected, and viewing from the mail ticker select a message, that has been sent to another account, TB will invoke the template that responds to the account selected in the main TB window. Yes, I have struggled with this behavior, also. I found that the only thing I could effectively do was delete the message, move to the account whose From template I wished to appear in the new message headers, and start over. Now, one can do that in this situation. However, I had an attention lapse last week and sent a message to my nephew while I was in my account with the dutaint domain. Of course, he hit Reply and replied to me in that domain, and of course it was filtered to that collapsed account's Inbox. Took me a minute or so to realize where the message from my nephew that I saw on the server was hiding. So, I have attention lapses more often than I used to. And it would be nice if TB! could be coded some way that I could Customise it to protect myself. If not, I shall just go on living with it. But I shall certainly not invoke the address of new messages by typing in manually the handle any more, for my contacts in whose Properties I have %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE in the New Message template. Now as far as I can see this is a similar situation to Mary's, where TB invokes the wrong template, or rather a template that we didn't want. I haven't really thought of whether this behaviour is feature or bug. I'm just used to it. I'm used to it to. And I think it is the same sort of coding which produces it, as produced my really bad experience today. Just my (largely irrelevant) 2p. I think your 2p is right on the money, Ben. And now I'm used to this ignoring of my PGP template. The Bat! does it in two instances: 1) If I save a message as Draft, with the %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE macro in the contact's Properties, it goes into the Outbox--the only folder where you cannot modify Folder Properties. 1a) When I open that saved message in an editor to work on it a little further, the Privacy settings are changed. If--and actually I never save as draft any more, for messages I encrypt, because of this--I forget to pull down the Privacy menu and check the Encrypt when complete box, out it will go, unencrypted, when I press the Send button. 2) The second instance in which The Bat! disregards my PGP template settings for a contact is the subject of this thread. Thanks a mil for joining the discussion, Ben. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: New Feature Wish
Howdy Mary, Tuesday, October 10, 2006, 12:21:12 AM, Mary wrotened: Personally having several accounts with slightly different templates for each one I have noticed this problem previously. If I have one account currently selected, and viewing from the mail ticker select a message, that has been sent to another account, TB will invoke the template that responds to the account selected in the main TB window. MB Yes, I have struggled with this behavior, also. MB I found that the only thing I could effectively do was delete the MB message, move to the account whose From template I wished to appear MB in the new message headers, and start over. There is another work around for this. Before you edit the message body go to optionsactive account and select the account whose default template you wish to use, and TB will change the message body to that template. However if you do it after you have edited the message body the template stays as initially selected, even though it will send through the other account. MB So, I have attention lapses more often than I used to. And it would be MB nice if TB! could be coded some way that I could Customise it to MB protect myself. MB If not, I shall just go on living with it. I agree, that it would be handy to have a warning message so that I could change the template that is being used, but I feel it should be turned off by default. Though having said that I normally hate warning messages, and I would most likely turn it off or ignore it. As I said before theres for and against then theres me on the fence. MB But I shall certainly not invoke the address of new messages by typing MB in manually the handle any more, for my contacts in whose Properties MB I have %ENCRYPTCOMPLETE in the New Message template. I don't use either of those features anyway, so I am not in a position to comment. Now as far as I can see this is a similar situation to Mary's, where TB invokes the wrong template, or rather a template that we didn't want. I haven't really thought of whether this behaviour is feature or bug. I'm just used to it. MB I'm used to it to. MB And I think it is the same sort of coding which produces it, as MB produced my really bad experience today. I think that user friendliness is a valid thing for programmers to go for, without sacrificing the functionality. If adding something makes the program easier to use then I am for it, having said that though we don't want TB to become so bloated with additional things that don't add real substance. So to sum up. I don't know whether I am in favour or against. Plus I am babbling. Just my (largely irrelevant) 2p. MB I think your 2p is right on the money, Ben. MB And now I'm used to this ignoring of my PGP template. Again not using security I can't give an informed opinion about this. MB Thanks a mil for joining the discussion, Ben. Always a pleasure M'Queen Trill. -- Have Fun, Ben Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashing The Bat! v3.86.02 falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Im not only weird. Im gifted too. Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
SOT exchabge of civilities between Ben A. and Mary B. [was Re: New Feature Wish]
Hello Ben! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 6:46 PM, you wrote: MB Thanks a mil for joining the discussion, Ben. Always a pleasure M'Queen Trill. Your humble servant, Alpha Ben. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
