Re: fix all bugs
Hello Gary, On Sun, 8 May 2005 09:45:52 -0500 GMT (08/05/2005, 21:45 +0700 GMT), Gary wrote: C Additional question: can it not be arranged that the preferred editor C can be chosen PER ACCOUNT? G not that I am aware of. I am certain: This is not possible. Would be nice, though. -- Cheers, Thomas. Um zu antworten, bitte die From-Zeile mit ROT13 bearbeiten. Danach mit MD5 hashen, zeichenweise den ASCII-Code um 2 erhoehen (mod 57) und erneut um 63 erhoehen. Dann mit der urspruenglichen Adresse x-oren. Schliesslich am Ergebnis erfreuen und so antworten wie gewohnt. Message reply created with The Bat! 3.5 Return RC5 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: fix all bugs
2. Users sometimes try to use IMAP as they use POP. It is completely wrong and it gives bad results. Right. However, I've been using IMAP for over a year now and I assure you that I no longer use it as I use POP. I still have issues with it. Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. For the majority of people who get a few legitimate messages a week, which they delete after reading/responding, for those who are are just barely able to figure out how to turn a computer on, pop will remain the choice of most isps, I suspect. 3. Personally I couldn't reproduce most of the bugs reported. As a programmer you should know how it is to deduce the reason in the air. I don't know the nature of your test environment, but perhaps the problem starts there. A professional grade beta testing operation is a large overhead. Maybe that is why RIT relies so heavily on us. Mulberry and ThunderBird present themselves in a simpler way. The out of the box behaviour just works and they will not do some of the things TB! will. They don't need to. A low bandwidth connection cannot handle some of those off-line use type options, and yet a high bandwidth connection doesn't need them though they can handle them. I find setting synchronize to "headers only" helps with large folders. Getting a new list of folder contents is pleasantly fast. Some other email clients don't have this figured out nearly so well. Eudora, for instance, can take a half hour for the same operation over my high speed connection. Having TB default to downloading my 15,000 full message contents, many with large attachments would make a very poor impression if I were installing it for the first time. Pop is for those who are confused by options and would really rather they went away. IMAP is for those of us who need a lot more from email software and are willing to put in the time it takes to configure it correctly. Of course it is true, that those for whom pop is right probably don't know that and sometimes do wander into imap land unawares. You have to know who your customers are, and how much you should cater to the low end of the spectrum at the expense of the high end. Everybody is not going to be pleased no matter where you draw your lines. -- Gleason UsingTheBat!v3.5ReturnRC5onWindowsXP5.1Build2600 ServicePack2PrimarilyusingtheFastmail IMAPserverwhichusesCyrus. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Re[2]: fix all bugs
Hi Gleason, On 7/5/2005 11:19 PM -0700, you wrote: I don't know if you intended it, but all the lines in your messages are followed by an extra carriage return. See the block just below. I've reformatted the others. Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. For the majority of people who get a few legitimate messages a week, which they delete after reading/responding, for those who are are just barely able to figure out how to turn a computer on, pop will remain the choice of most isps, I suspect. Agreed. I'm not sure why you write this now. I was referring to how some IMAP features are implemented. They are implemented based on POP features/architecture. One example is the filtering, and another, the sound alerts. Both have their problems/limitations as a result. I don't know the nature of your test environment, but perhaps the problem starts there. A professional grade beta testing operation is a large overhead. Maybe that is why RIT relies so heavily on us. Right. Many of us are beyond the stage of trying to use IMAP synchronizing all folders etc. We do form a great test bed. I find setting synchronize to headers only helps with large folders. Getting a new list of folder contents is pleasantly fast. Some other email clients don't have this figured out nearly so well. Eudora, for instance, can take a half hour for the same operation over my high speed connection. Having TB default to downloading my 15,000 full message contents, many with large attachments would make a very poor impression if I were installing it for the first time. Pop is for those who are confused by options and would really rather they went away. IMAP is for those of us who need a lot more from email software and are willing to put in the time it takes to configure it correctly. I beg to disagree with your latter point. IMAP is simply for those who wish to manage the same mail from multiple locations. There are many simple users I know who love webmail for that simple reason. They would use IMAP in a flash if they *knew* about it since the few I introduced to it immediately adopted it. IMAP is not mysterious and tedious, making it accessible only for those with the time to put into it. Of course it is true, that those for whom pop is right probably don't know that and sometimes do wander into imap land unawares. You have to know who your customers are, and how much you should cater to the low end of the spectrum at the expense of the high end. Everybody is not going to be pleased no matter where you draw your lines. There are more often those who rightfully wonder into IMAP land. However, they wish IMAP to work in the same way as POP since that's all they were previously familiar with. I've been there. Full synching is one such option, especially when done automatically and at regular intervals for all folders, something that TB! can be set up to do. The idea of having full synchronisation at all times is appealing and many try it only with frustration ... *even on high bandwidth connections*. However, not synching and using simple server count updating achieves a very good result in that you can easily browse your messages. Once you select the folder, there's a quick header update and then you can browse. [If TB! didn't have to work with all message headers , this could be even faster.] The messages are then retrieved as you select them with the connection being dedicated only to what you are specifically doing at all times. Even with 6 connections going on my LAN, TB! pauses when doing some things because it's busy doing something else. It's amazing how well I use an IMAP client at work now, and paradoxically, I use it with no caching between sessions or even between folder browsing. Each time I open a folder, a new cache is built!! This is with a relatively slow connection. Why? IMAP is fully developed in this client. You don't need all 15000 headers in the cache to browse the last 200 messages. You don't need all 15000 headers cached to search for a message or messages .. even a quick search. etc. etc. This is where I hope to see TB! eventually go. I suspect, it will. -- Allie Martin System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm -=-=- Help endangered species - adopt a KGB operative. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Allie, I don't know if you intended it, but all the lines in your messages are followed by an extra carriage return. See the block just below. I've reformatted the others. Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. Not here Allie. See below the same paragraph you quote: Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
On Sunday, May 08, 2005 at 6:47:33 AM [GMT -0500], Miguel Urech wrote: Not here Allie. See below the same paragraph you quote: You misunderstood. I'm not referring to POP3 the way it is. I'm referring to the POP3 legacy that IMAP is built on. It's the root to a lot of the problems before and some that exist now. I'm referring to 9Val's comment: 9Val 1. TB! hasn't thought as IMAP client when was created (mostly fixed) Let me give you an example of what I meant: Currently, IMAP sound notification for new messages is a modification of sound notifications for POP accounts. While it works well for POP, it's a problem for IMAP. Right now, the sound is triggered for an IMAP folder if a folder count is done and messages are added. These are often messages already read using another client. No need to be notified about messages already read. However, TB!'s notification system cannot tell the difference. You see, for POP, there's only one way 'new' messages will end up there and it's if these are new messages that haven't been read. -- -= Allie Martin =- The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 System Specs: http://www.landscreek.net/sysspecs.htm -=-=- Skiier: Avalanche looking for a place to happen. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
On Sunday, May 08, 2005 at 7:00:07 AM [GMT -0500], Allie_M wrote: However, TB!'s notification system cannot tell the difference. You see, for POP, there's only one way 'new' messages will end up there and it's if these are new messages that haven't been read. I'm referring to what happens during a server check for new messages for POP3. So I'm not referring to manual filtering or moving of messages. :) -- -= Allie Martin =- The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 System Specs: http://www.landscreek.net/sysspecs.htm -=-=- Shift key? this keyboard is an automatic! Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Allie, Not here Allie. See below the same paragraph you quote: You misunderstood. No, I think you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to what you said: I don't know if you intended it, but all the lines in your messages are followed by an extra carriage return. See the block just below. I've reformatted the others. And I was trying to say that I did not see the extra CR. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
On Sunday, May 08, 2005 at 8:20:08 AM [GMT -0500], Miguel Urech wrote: And I was trying to say that I did not see the extra CR. Yes. I don't see the effect when using TB!. -- -= Allie Martin =- The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 System Specs: http://www.landscreek.net/sysspecs.htm -=-=- It's easier to get older than it is to get wiser. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hi MAU, --On Sunday, May 08, 2005 1:47 PM +0200 you wrote in part: I don't know if you intended it, but all the lines in your messages are followed by an extra carriage return. Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. Not here Allie. See below the same paragraph you quote: Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly the reason is that Gleason is sending HTML email to the list, and this shows an additional CR. -- Gary Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: fix all bugs
Het was op zondag 8 mei 2005 om 15:26 uur dat jij iets schreef over 'fix all bugs' : Hallo Gary, G the reason is that Gleason is sending HTML email to the list, and this G shows an additional CR. okay I'm trying to reply now with windows editor option. Normally I use the first option, plain text microed, but for testing purposes THIS editor does not wrap and quote as it should, see above. Additional question: can it not be arranged that the preferred editor can be chosen PER ACCOUNT? I have an emaillist on my gmailaccount which requires htmleditor. Pictures have to be included IN the message and not with the paperclip-option. So for that account I want htmleditor, for the other 3 I want to use plaintext. -- regards, Cees RUNTIME ERROR 6D at 417A: 32CF: Incompetent user ___ The Bat! :bat2angel: :beta: 3.5 Return RC5 [A12F0392] running on Windows XP 5.1 build 2600 Service Pack 2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[3]: fix all bugs
Het was op zondag 8 mei 2005 om 15:43 uur dat jij iets schreef over 'fix all bugs' : Hallo Cees, C okay I'm trying to reply now with windows editor option. Normally I C use the first option, plain text microed, but for testing purposes C THIS editor does not wrap and quote as it should, see above. this is odd... the previous message, to which I'm replying right now, looked like crap within the editor, but arrived apparently okay. Now I'm replying and again I see lines being cut-off and text without quote signs. Bet it arrives as it should, but this is confusing. ;) -- regards, Cees Buy Land Now. It's Not Being Made Any More. ___ The Bat! :bat2angel: :beta: 3.5 Return RC5 [A12F0392] running on Windows XP 5.1 build 2600 Service Pack 2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[3]: fix all bugs
G the reason is that Gleason is sending HTML email to the list, and this G shows an additional CR. okay I'm trying to reply now with windows editor option. Normally I use the first option, plain text microed, but for testing purposes THIS editor does not wrap and quote as it should, see above. Additional question: can it not be arranged that the preferred editor can be chosen PER ACCOUNT? I have an emaillist on my gmailaccount which requires htmleditor. Pictures have to be included IN the message and not with the paperclip-option. So for that account I want htmleditor, for the other 3 I want to use plaintext. I sure would appreciate that. This list is the only place where I can't send html (but I do always send both just in case). I am guilty of forgetting to switch to microed sometimes for messages here. -- Gleason Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC5 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Primarily using the Fastmail IMAP server which uses Cyrus. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hi Cees, On Sun, 8 May 2005 15:43:45 +0200 UTC (5/8/2005, 8:43 AM -0500 UTC my time), Cees wrote: C okay I'm trying to reply now with windows editor option. Normally I C use the first option, plain text microed, but for testing purposes C THIS editor does not wrap and quote as it should, see above. this came through as plain text, not HTML or enriched. C Additional question: can it not be arranged that the preferred editor C can be chosen PER ACCOUNT? not that I am aware of. C I have an emaillist on my gmailaccount which requires htmleditor. C Pictures have to be included IN the message and not with the C paperclip-option. So for that account I want htmleditor, for the other 3 C I want to use plaintext. As far as I know, you would have to edit manually to change to HTML text for in-line pictures. -- Gary '...have you taken your Haldol today?' Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello NetVicious, N The problem of TB! with IMAP (as example) it's TB! was make thinking N only in POP3. As a programmer I could say it's most difficult to N modify a program for make something new than create a new program from N zero. In the IMAP direction I see 3 main problems: 1. TB! hasn't thought as IMAP client when was created (mostly fixed) 2. Users sometimes try to use IMAP as they use POP. It is completely wrong and it gives bad results. 3. Personally I couldn't reproduce most of the bugs reported. As a programmer you should know how it is to deduce the reason in the air. N I wait with the new UI change the TB! code was cleaned a little and N 9Val and other new programmers added to the project are more familiar N with all the code of TB! N Do you think the same 9Val? Mostly :) -- 9Val Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/4 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hi 9Val, On 8/5/2005 12:07 AM +0300, you wrote: In the IMAP direction I see 3 main problems: 1. TB! hasn't thought as IMAP client when was created (mostly fixed) I hope so. :) 2. Users sometimes try to use IMAP as they use POP. It is completely wrong and it gives bad results. Right. However, I've been using IMAP for over a year now and I assure you that I no longer use it as I use POP. I still have issues with it. Even if all that it can do now works as it should without glitches etc., I'd still not be happy because of the POP legacy very slowly being relinquished. 3. Personally I couldn't reproduce most of the bugs reported. As a programmer you should know how it is to deduce the reason in the air. I don't know the nature of your test environment, but perhaps the problem starts there. I do very little filtering using TB! and there are those who are doing all filtering with TB!. They'll likely have a lot of problems that I won't because I don't filter much with TB!. Gary works mainly from his Inbox and then filters after reading. His Inbox is quite busy while reading. It wasn't until I had a lot of messages coming into TBBETA during a test session that I began to experience problems he did and up to then couldn't reproduce. I'm working with IMAP folders that commonly contain thousands of messages, my largest containing 12,000 messages with a tbi file size of 6.6MB. While using it I got a cascade of AV's. Mind you things seemed smooth for a while. When I restarted TB! and tried accessing the mailbox, TB! offered to repair the mailbox it had problems accessing. I need to delete the cache there. IOW's, environments largely differ from server to server and the way we use TB! IMAP. Both seem to affect operations quite a lot. Another thing I need to ask is why offer ways of using TB! IMAP that amount to crippling it. I don't understand that. Why complain that they're using options that *are provided*. It's not intuitive to see full synchronization as an option and then leave everything to not synchronize. It seems unworkable to the passing user. I have found myself having to suggest ways of using TB! and assuring the user that it should work better. In other words, 'It may seem strange to set things up like that, but that's how it works best.' Don't use any of those 'nice' options. :) Mulberry and ThunderBird present themselves in a simpler way. The out of the box behaviour just works and they will not do some of the things TB! will. They don't need to. A low bandwidth connection cannot handle some of those off-line use type options, and yet a high bandwidth connection doesn't need them though they can handle them. -- Allie Martin System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm -=-=- IBM: I Buy Macinstosh Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/5 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
miércoles, 4 may 2005 at 00:32, it seems you wrote:
I suspect that in the early days of email, it was not too difficult
a task to put together a decent email program that beat the pants
off of Outlook Express. It is no longer nearly so easy. Expectations
are much higher.
The problem of TB! with IMAP (as example) it's TB! was make thinking
only in POP3. As a programmer I could say it's most difficult to
modify a program for make something new than create a new program from
zero.
What we have in the world of email software is a number of players
competing like mad. Each trying to outdo each other with features
and obeying the software god, which decrees that the first one to
market gets 80% of the sales. This is very frustrating for somebody
like me who has a real need for a well done email manager.
I wait with the new UI change the TB! code was cleaned a little and
9Val and other new programmers added to the project are more familiar
with all the code of TB!
Do you think the same 9Val?
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Re: fix all bugs
Hello NetVicious, Friday, May 6, 2005, 3:32:51 PM, you wrote: N As a programmer I could say it's most difficult to modify a program N for make something new than create a new program from zero. I can agree with that 100%! -- __ TBUDL/BETA/DEV/TECH Lists Moderator / PGP 0x6C0AB16B ( ) ( ___)(_ _)( ___) TBUDP Wiki Site: http://www.PCWize.com/thebat/tbudp )(__ )__) _)(_ )__) Roguemoticons: http://PCWize.com/thebat ()()()(__)PCWSmileys: http://PCWize.com/thebat/pcwsmileys.php Tagline of the day: Stock news: Nintendo CEO entertains new game plan. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/4 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Leif, A reminder of what Leif Gregory typed on: May 6, 2005 at 15:48:14 GMT -0600 N As a programmer I could say it's most difficult to modify a program N for make something new than create a new program from zero. LG I can agree with that 100%! Sorry to jump in here, but I was wondering if you are still in charge of the Rogue emoticons, Leif. I sent a problem to support and haven't heard back. Just wanted to make sure the message went somewhere. :) -- Best regards, Stuartmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC4 Bayes Filter Plugin v2.0.2 On Windows 2000 5.0 Build #2195 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/4 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Stuart, Friday, May 6, 2005, 4:12:01 PM, you wrote: S Sorry to jump in here, but I was wondering if you are still in S charge of the Rogue emoticons, Leif. I sent a problem to support S and haven't heard back. Just wanted to make sure the message went S somewhere. :) If in charge, you mean of the roguemoticons as they relate to: http://www.pcwize.com/thebat Then yes. If you mean as it relates to a problem with TB using or displaying them, then no. -- __ TBUDL/BETA/DEV/TECH Lists Moderator / PGP 0x6C0AB16B ( ) ( ___)(_ _)( ___) TBUDP Wiki Site: http://www.PCWize.com/thebat/tbudp )(__ )__) _)(_ )__) Roguemoticons: http://PCWize.com/thebat ()()()(__)PCWSmileys: http://PCWize.com/thebat/pcwsmileys.php Tagline of the day: There are only two kinds of users, Moderators and targets. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/4 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Leif, A reminder of what Leif Gregory typed on: May 6, 2005 at 16:39:28 GMT -0600 LG If in charge, you mean of the roguemoticons as they relate to: LG http://www.pcwize.com/thebat LG Then yes. Yes, this is what I meant. I am unable to log in, even though it sent me my password. -- Best regards, Stuartmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC4 Bayes Filter Plugin v2.0.2 On Windows 2000 5.0 Build #2195 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/4 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, 0:32:57, Gleason Pace wrote: I think that Agent can afford to take this stance because they really have no credible competition. Dialog, Gravity, ...? The only update Agent offered in years was the addition of a trash folder (and a change of the GUI so that it doesn't look like a Win3.1 program anymore). I prefer a program that's a bit less stable to a program that doesn't change in years and only lives on promises of great new features that never come. -- Jernej Simoncic http://deepthought.ena.si/ [The Bat! v3.5 Return RC1 on Windows NT Clone 5.2.3790.Service Pack 1] In order to get a loan you must first prove you don't need it. -- Bankers Axiom Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: fix all bugs
On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, 0:32:57, Gleason Pace wrote: I think that Agent can afford to take this stance because they really have no credible competition. Dialog, Gravity, ...? The only update Agent offered in years was the addition of a trash folder (and a change of the GUI so that it doesn't look like a Win3.1 program anymore). I prefer a program that's a bit less stable to a program that doesn't change in years and only lives on promises of great new features that never come. Agreed. I dumped Agent in favor of Dialog as Agent v2 seemed to be vaporware. The trash folder thing was the last straw. I lived with Agent for years using it for email, too until I found TB v1.5 so to me, there is a definite limit to how long one can stand still and not get clobbered by the competition. lament But why do I still secretly yearn for TB 1.63 with just a *few* more UI features? V3 is superior in so many ways, but the complexity and the 40mb+ mem usage... /lament -- Neal Laugman, lover of MicroEd Using The Bat! v3.5 Return RC1 and BayesIt! 0.8.0 Release on Win2000 SP4 (with a gig of ram) Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
On Wednesday 04 May 2005 16:41, Neal Laugman wrote: Agreed. I dumped Agent in favor of Dialog as Agent v2 seemed to be vaporware. It was in an Agent newsgroup that someone recommended The Bat to me. I commented on what a good news reader it was and what a pity there was an email client that was as good. Someone told me about The Bat v1.4 and I bought it that day... -- Tony. SuSE 9.2. Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
fix all bugs
If, by your own admission as above, the list of bugs is so long, why not concentrate on fixing them *instead* of introducing a plethora of new features which consequently makes that list longer, makes the bugs harder to track down and harder to fix? There is one player in the online communications field that has this philosophy. That is Agent Newsreader. Agent users were promised a new version last June that would have a wide range of new features, including the ability to use multiple news servers all at once. I would say there is a fair chance that we will pass this June as well without the new version. Forte on their website tells us that the delay is worth it due to their legendary quality. Looking back through their forum history, I can see that they are at least legendarily late with new versions. I think that Agent can afford to take this stance because they really have no credible competition. And even though they do have integrated pop email, they have done nothing with imap. David Harris (Pegasus) has stated in one of his support documents that the imap specification is inches thick and unimaginably complex. I have heard much the same from Slaven of Pocomail. I suspect that in the early days of email, it was not too difficult a task to put together a decent email program that beat the pants off of Outlook Express. It is no longer nearly so easy. Expectations are much higher. Professional reputation is the same be it for a road sweep or a software programmer. The parallel does not hold because it is not so hard to find a leak in a roof and agree that it is one. 9val is right. Programming theory tells us that the stars will burn out before we can remove all the bugs from a moderately complex program. The different combinations of possible input are beyond human scale. Add to this all the possible interactions with other installed software, various hardware, and various versions of the underlying os, which, in the case of windows, will certainly have its own bugs, and the problem is fiendish. What we have in the world of email software is a number of players competing like mad. Each trying to outdo each other with features and obeying the software god, which decrees that the first one to market gets 80% of the sales. This is very frustrating for somebody like me who has a real need for a well done email manager. Gleason Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: fix all bugs
Hello Gleason, The different combinations of possible input are beyond human scale. Add to this all the possible interactions with other installed software, various hardware, and various versions of the underlying os, which, in the case of windows, will certainly have its own bugs, and the problem is fiendish. Correct. And that is something some people don't understand. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 3.5 Return RC/1 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
