Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 09:51 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: It's even easier than that. Click on the black title bar in the Display capplet and move it to the monitor you want it to appear on. Does that actually change the primary display or just move the bar? In other words, do other applications that want to pop things up on the primary display follow the bar when you drag it? Even if they aren't GNOME and or read gconf/dconf? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
Dne 21.4.2011 15:51, Adam Jackson napsal(a): It's even easier than that. Click on the black title bar in the Display capplet and move it to the monitor you want it to appear on. Unfortunately, it took me twenty minutes before I figured out this one. ... :( Matěj -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Fri, 2011-04-22 at 15:40 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote: Dne 21.4.2011 15:51, Adam Jackson napsal(a): It's even easier than that. Click on the black title bar in the Display capplet and move it to the monitor you want it to appear on. Unfortunately, it took me twenty minutes before I figured out this one. ... :( Yeah, I was going to write the same thing: it's a neat design but it seems to fail to be intuitive, even if you'd think it should be. Once ajax posted that I even remembered that I _knew about it before_, but I'd forgotten, and I failed to remember even staring at the screen. So it seems like it's not a good interface for the function...maybe it should be reconsidered. I'll push it upstream, I guess. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: The alternative was not having the Shut Down option at all, so be careful what you wish for...=) I know you're kidding, sir, because such examples of false dichotomies are clearly logical fallacies...and we know those never appear on Fedora mailing lists... ;-) Seriously, though: it doesn't do much good to exemplify bold leadership by proudly following Gnome off a cliff...because I strongly doubt the Fedora community will do likewise. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On 04/21/2011 07:54 AM, Rick Stevens wrote: I think the OP has a good bead on this. It is rather silly to change the paradigm (no close button on popups) and expect people to use the ESC key instead. Use the ALT button to shut down? What kind of lunacy is this? I can't believe it takes THAT much more code/CPU to implement a close button and leave the shutdown mechanism alone regardless of how minimalistic they want to be. You shouldn't take the rationalizations provided by other users as definitive. It is often incorrect. Unfortunately in the absence of clear design documents that explains all the important changes, this is what fills the void. In any case, gnome-shell-extensions-alternative-status-menu extension can help here. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:57 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: My large display is to the left of the laptop. This is correctable via the GUI. Making it the primary display isn't, xrandr is required to set the primary display with 'xrandr --output HDMI2 --primary' If the user needs the terminal for something that basic, more baking needs doin'. It's not actually basic, because there's no way to reliably detect which display should be the primary in any given configuration. But the Display applet could probably stand having a button to do it, yeah. It's even easier than that. Click on the black title bar in the Display capplet and move it to the monitor you want it to appear on. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Probably? I have difficulty coming up with any design reason for this, but I haven't gone back to read the design discussions. Also, as always: right click on the window titlebar will give you the full list of options, including Close. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 09:53 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Probably? I have difficulty coming up with any design reason for this, but I haven't gone back to read the design discussions. I still think this is just a bug. The Firefox About window isn't a child window like those in GNOME apps (it doesn't appear attached to the parent's title bar). I think there's just something odd about that window which results in it not having a close button. I don't think it's intentional. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Probably? I have difficulty coming up with any design reason for this, but I haven't gone back to read the design discussions. Also, as always: right click on the window titlebar will give you the full list of options, including Close. ESC works for me. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:23:42 -0700, MK wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Probably? I have difficulty coming up with any design reason for this, but I haven't gone back to read the design discussions. Also, as always: right click on the window titlebar will give you the full list of options, including Close. ESC works for me. Alt+F4 or right-click context menu on the window title - Close. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 02:17 -0700, Scott Doty wrote: Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: The alternative was not having the Shut Down option at all, so be careful what you wish for...=) I know you're kidding, sir, because such examples of false dichotomies are clearly logical fallacies...and we know those never appear on Fedora mailing lists... ;-) Well, not really. The Alt thing was added. For a few weeks before that, you only had Suspend and Log Out. Seriously, though: it doesn't do much good to exemplify bold leadership by proudly following Gnome off a cliff...because I strongly doubt the Fedora community will do likewise. What's the alternative, maintain long-term patches to a desktop despite the fact that most of our desktop team are part of the upstream GNOME development team? It's not likely. Fedora follows upstream. If you don't like what GNOME is doing, you can always not use it: Fedora provides many other desktops. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 02:17 -0700, Scott Doty wrote: Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: The alternative was not having the Shut Down option at all, so be careful what you wish for...=) I know you're kidding, sir, because such examples of false dichotomies are clearly logical fallacies...and we know those never appear on Fedora mailing lists... ;-) Well, not really. The Alt thing was added. For a few weeks before that, you only had Suspend and Log Out. Seriously, though: it doesn't do much good to exemplify bold leadership by proudly following Gnome off a cliff...because I strongly doubt the Fedora community will do likewise. What's the alternative, maintain long-term patches to a desktop despite the fact that most of our desktop team are part of the upstream GNOME development team? It's not likely. Well, one possible alternative would be to include by default (or loudly advertise) the Alternative Status Menu gnome-shell extension, which adds the Power Off... entry under Suspend. Fedora follows upstream. If you don't like what GNOME is doing, you can always not use it: Fedora provides many other desktops. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 12:29 -0700, Michael Knepher wrote: What's the alternative, maintain long-term patches to a desktop despite the fact that most of our desktop team are part of the upstream GNOME development team? It's not likely. Well, one possible alternative would be to include by default (or loudly advertise) the Alternative Status Menu gnome-shell extension, which adds the Power Off... entry under Suspend. That's an effective breakage of staying close to upstream, because if the design/configuration implemented by a Shell extension was what upstream wanted, it wouldn't be an extension but the upstream default. Given that, we're not likely to ship any extensions installed by default. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
Install gnome-tweak-tool, then you can have the old min/max-imize and close button by changing the settings on Gnome Tweak Tool, though for pop up window, you still have to use ESC, or titlebar right click and then close. -- Angel Give me Linux.. ..or give me death -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
Ok, downloaded the F15Beta live cd today. Booted it on a Thinkpad X200s docked with external display, keyboard and mouse + internal panel. Guess I'll run the bugs by roughly in the order discovered. Grub is the first one. The external keyboard didn't work. It does on F12 which is the primary OS on the machine. Lauching the file browser (nautilus?) and mousing over the available mount points got a crash from gvfs. Next bug is no debuginfo packages for key bits like glibc means no automatic bug report from abrt was possible. Guys, no debug packages means no good reports, which is the whole point of a beta, right? Cups is present and browsing is enabled but no printers show. Lots of printers are expected to show. Nothing interesting in the logs. My large display is to the left of the laptop. This is correctable via the GUI. Making it the primary display isn't, xrandr is required to set the primary display with 'xrandr --output HDMI2 --primary' If the user needs the terminal for something that basic, more baking needs doin'. Invoking the sound config locks if you click on a default sound. Quiet repeating grunts are audible until it finally crashes for good and again, abrt can't make a report. Not sure yet if that is a kernel problem, the eternal horror of pulseaudio or something new. When I get time I will poke around more and report. Please don't be a kernel bug! I have had to pass over F13 and F14 because of kernel bugs in undocking if I have to skip F15 for sound I'm boned. Pulseaudio I can remove. Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? And finally, good thing I read the mailing lists... otherwise I'd have never guessed holding ALT down was the only way to shutdown or reboot. What genius of user interface design thought that was a good idea? REALLY? Seriously, this is introducing a whole new idiom to user interfaces that people have zero expectation of. The choices presented in a menu should not vary based on buckybits. It violates decades of user expectations. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
Next bug is no debuginfo packages for key bits like glibc means no automatic bug report from abrt was possible. Guys, no debug packages means no good reports, which is the whole point of a beta, right? Are you saying that ABRT didn't download debuginfo packages? For a while now (not just F15) debuginfo isn't installed at install time. It just automatically gets downloaded when ABRT tries to generate the backtrace and it caches them in /var rather than installing them as full RPMs on the system. If ABRT didn't actually download the debugs that's actually a bug and you probably should report it. Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Not that I specifically agree with it but popup windows like the about window are dismissed with the Esc key rather than a close button. Gnome-shell has some minimalistic design decisions in it which will take some getting used to like the lack of a minimize button and the alt button press for a shutdown. That last one seems fine for desktops which I run 24x7 but not necessarily laptops which I tend to shutdown and pack away. -- John Watzke -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On 04/20/2011 06:39 PM, John Watzke wrote: [snip] Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Not that I specifically agree with it but popup windows like the about window are dismissed with the Esc key rather than a close button. Gnome-shell has some minimalistic design decisions in it which will take some getting used to like the lack of a minimize button and the alt button press for a shutdown. That last one seems fine for desktops which I run 24x7 but not necessarily laptops which I tend to shutdown and pack away. I think the OP has a good bead on this. It is rather silly to change the paradigm (no close button on popups) and expect people to use the ESC key instead. Use the ALT button to shut down? What kind of lunacy is this? I can't believe it takes THAT much more code/CPU to implement a close button and leave the shutdown mechanism alone regardless of how minimalistic they want to be. rant This sounds like change for change's sake and makes no sense whatsoever. The more I see of Gnome's silly decision making process, the less confidence I have in them. Surely Red Hat has some pull with these people. How about using a bit of it to quash these stupid plans? Red Hat can't realistically expect a RHEL release based on F15 and this sort of idiocy to fly with their customer base, do they? Seriously? /rant -- Rick Stevens -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:39 -0500, John Watzke wrote: Are you saying that ABRT didn't download debuginfo packages? For a while now (not just F15) debuginfo isn't installed at install time. It just automatically gets downloaded when ABRT tries to generate the backtrace and it caches them in /var rather than installing them as full RPMs on the system. If ABRT didn't actually download the debugs that's actually a bug and you probably should report it. It tried to download and failed. The failure dialog suggested running 'debuginfo-install gvfs'. That also failed. Apparently yum can't find glibc-debuginfo and a couple others. Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Not that I specifically agree with it but popup windows like the about window are dismissed with the Esc key rather than a close button. Gnome-shell has some minimalistic design decisions in it which will take some getting used to like the lack of a minimize button and the alt button press for a shutdown. That last one seems fine for desktops which I run 24x7 but not necessarily laptops which I tend to shutdown and pack away. Personally I consider GNOME3 a regression. After trying F15Alpha I went ahead and switched my desktop to XFCE since I have zero desire to relearn everything. But I wanted to test the main release in the interest of giving the best feedback. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 19:24 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote: I think the OP has a good bead on this. It is rather silly to change the paradigm (no close button on popups) and expect people to use the ESC key instead. Use the ALT button to shut down? What kind of lunacy is this? I can't believe it takes THAT much more code/CPU to implement a close button and leave the shutdown mechanism alone regardless of how minimalistic they want to be. Especially confusing since the window is still decorated with a thick bar at the top implying that SOMETHING should be there. Since they took away all the buttons and the title they should go ahead and suppress the bar. rant This sounds like change for change's sake and makes no sense whatsoever. The more I see of Gnome's silly decision making process, the less confidence I have in them. Surely Red Hat has some pull with these people. How about using a bit of it to quash these stupid plans? Red Hat can't realistically expect a RHEL release based on F15 and this sort of idiocy to fly with their customer base, do they? Seriously? /rant GNOME3 is more like an experimental university project 'to explore what we could do if we toss everything we know about existing user interfaces and start from scratch!' and it is now poised to ship as the default UI on one of the major Linux distros. I have a very bad feeling about this, suspect it will end badly. -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:07 -0500, John Morris wrote: Ok, downloaded the F15Beta live cd today. Booted it on a Thinkpad X200s docked with external display, keyboard and mouse + internal panel. Guess I'll run the bugs by roughly in the order discovered. Grub is the first one. The external keyboard didn't work. It does on F12 which is the primary OS on the machine. Fileabug. Lauching the file browser (nautilus?) and mousing over the available mount points got a crash from gvfs. Fileanother! Next bug is no debuginfo packages for key bits like glibc means no automatic bug report from abrt was possible. Guys, no debug packages means no good reports, which is the whole point of a beta, right? debuginfo packages are always generated in builds, they don't go 'missing'. We'd need much more detail on what you actually saw to figure out what problem you had here. Cups is present and browsing is enabled but no printers show. Lots of printers are expected to show. Nothing interesting in the logs. Did you set the firewall appropriately? My large display is to the left of the laptop. This is correctable via the GUI. Making it the primary display isn't, xrandr is required to set the primary display with 'xrandr --output HDMI2 --primary' If the user needs the terminal for something that basic, more baking needs doin'. It's not actually basic, because there's no way to reliably detect which display should be the primary in any given configuration. But the Display applet could probably stand having a button to do it, yeah. Invoking the sound config locks if you click on a default sound. Quiet repeating grunts are audible until it finally crashes for good and again, abrt can't make a report. Not sure yet if that is a kernel problem, the eternal horror of pulseaudio or something new. When I get time I will poke around more and report. Please don't be a kernel bug! I have had to pass over F13 and F14 because of kernel bugs in undocking if I have to skip F15 for sound I'm boned. Pulseaudio I can remove. That sounds like a hardware-specific kernel bug to me (PulseAudio generally can't crash anything _that_ hard). Launch firefox and display the About popup. Notice anything missing? Yup, the only way to be rid of it is to stop FF and kill off xulrunner-bin. Or perhaps xkill? Is this a window manager (mutter?) bug? Or...the Esc key. This one's been reported already. And finally, good thing I read the mailing lists... otherwise I'd have never guessed holding ALT down was the only way to shutdown or reboot. What genius of user interface design thought that was a good idea? REALLY? Seriously, this is introducing a whole new idiom to user interfaces that people have zero expectation of. The choices presented in a menu should not vary based on buckybits. It violates decades of user expectations. The alternative was not having the Shut Down option at all, so be careful what you wish for...=) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 19:24 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote: Not that I specifically agree with it but popup windows like the about window are dismissed with the Esc key rather than a close button. Gnome-shell has some minimalistic design decisions in it which will take some getting used to like the lack of a minimize button and the alt button press for a shutdown. That last one seems fine for desktops which I run 24x7 but not necessarily laptops which I tend to shutdown and pack away. I think the OP has a good bead on this. It is rather silly to change the paradigm (no close button on popups) and expect people to use the ESC key instead. The expectation isn't that people should use Esc, it's that the dialog should have a Close button. Check the About dialog for any GNOME app. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Multiple F15Beta bugs in under an hour
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 20:59 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: The expectation isn't that people should use Esc, it's that the dialog should have a Close button. Check the About dialog for any GNOME app. If the expectation is that 100% of applications will conform to Gnome UI standards, there is only one word that comes to mind. Delusion. Firefox being one of the better examples. It is a port, Moz doesn't really give a darned what Linux users need. Almost all of their users and most of the developers are on Windows. It will be almost as hard for Gnome to impose their UI notions on KDE app developers. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
