texascavers Digest 4 Jan 2014 17:14:51 -0000 Issue 1908
texascavers Digest 4 Jan 2014 17:14:51 - Issue 1908 Topics (messages 23210 through 23217): Re: Longhorn Caverns SP Project Rides Off Into The Sunset 23210 by: texascav...@yahoo.com 23211 by: texascav...@yahoo.com Bigfoot 23212 by: David 23213 by: Steve Keselik 23214 by: Andy Gluesenkamp 23215 by: Mark Minton 23216 by: Bill Bentley 23217 by: vivbone.att.net Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Thanks, Jon! Mark, by sheer dumb luck, somehow managed to send this from his Virgin Mobile Android-Powered Device - Reply message - From: Jon Cradit jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org To: Mark Alman texascav...@yahoo.com, texascavers@texascavers.com texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Longhorn Caverns SP Project Rides Off Into The Sunset Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2014 4:18 PM Mark, I would like to thank you for all you have done for the last several years. Being the coordinator between the TPWD, the concessionaire, and the cavers and scout groups. You have done a bang-up job. Let me raise a Blind Salamander beer in toast to you. Jon Cradit From: Mark Alman [mailto:texascav...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 3:54 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Longhorn Caverns SP Project Rides Off Into The Sunset Merry Christmas and Happy 2014, y'all! I have had a few inquiries as to the status of the Longhorn Caverns SP Project. At this point, I have decided to put it in the Completed or, at least, On Hiatus state of things. The TPWD folks, the concessionaire at the park, and the project folks had a to do list at the park and, to the best of my knowledge, all have been completed. This past spring, the TPWD crews did a superb job on repairing the dangerous trail areas in the cave, replacing and, in some cases, installing new handrails, repainting other handrails, and an excellent job of cleaning up after themselves. This, after switching all of the lighting in the cave from incandescent to LED the winter and spring before. The Project had a very long laundry list and it has been completed, as well, except for additional mapping in the back areas of the cave, near the Crownover entrance. This entrance still remains inaccessible, due to a new landowner and permissions to access the cave via this passageway have yet to be resolved. Hopefully, someday, the additional survey points and data collected by the various surveys will be added to the Longhorn Caverns map and we will have a completed and thorough idea of the total length and lay of the cave! I would love to be able to present this completed map to the park, someday! Highlights of the Project leader list include improvements and restoration of the Lovers Lane area, and removal of dead fall, cedar, and other unsightly underbush in the sinkhole near the Visitors Center, and pushing leads in the Lumbago Alley section. Numerous other smaller projects were completed and I'd rather not list them all or bore you with them here. Some of the folks I would like to thank, in no particular order, are: Lyndon Tiu, Gerry Geletzke, Natasha Glasgow, Daniel Ramirez, Bill Larson, Edwin Lehr, George-Paul Richman, Mallory Mayeux, Andrew Alman, Allison Alman, Chris Franke, Leslie Bell, Jim Sheets, and a cast of hundreds of others who have come out to help and my feeble memory can't recall! Some of the groups I'd like to offer a HUGE thank you are the Aggie Speleological Association and the Greater Houston Grotto. The Aggies, especially, were the hardest working, most enthusiastic, and hardest partying bunch I have ever been associated with and the success of this project, Pre and Post ICS, would not have been possible without their participation! Finally, I would like to thank ALL of the Boy Scout Troops that have come out to volunteer and to camp. They performed a huge service to the park,plus, a BUNCH of new youth received their first taste of caving and many have gone off to become more involved. (Why more cavers prefer to NOT work with Scout and other youth groups is beyond me! They are a great resource of labor and deep pool of potential new cavers. Refusal to work with them has puzzled me for 18 years and y'all know who you are!) In closing, to all of you who have come out to help on the project since 2008, either for just one weekend or for several weekends, I salute and thank you! I will always remember the fun times, hard work, evening meals (at the Park or at The Bluebonnet Cafe in Marble Falls), and the stargazing and camaraderie up in
[Texascavers] Re: black bear remains in Texas caves
David et al., Refer to your copy of /50 Years of Texas Caving*:/ the section on Bones, pp 279-285. Bones of black bear (/Ursus americanus /sp.) have been found in numerous Texas caves. Not surprising because historical accounts mention that there were a great many of them during the 1800s, especially in the Edwards Plateau/Hill Country, and in far west Texas. In addition to those already mentioned on the list, here are a few more examples, certainly not all: (edited excerpts from /50 Years/): Edwards County is especially noted for the numerous sites with remains of /Ursus americanus/, the once common black bear . . . In 1956, Ken Baker found black bear bones in Saltillo Cave . . . In 1963, cavers including Pete Lindsley and Preston McMichael collected a black bear skull and bones from Deep Cave . . . (photo by Pete on p. 284) In 1967, Kunath found black bear bones in Cardiac Cave . . . Also, around 1995, Colorado Bend State Park staff discovered the articulated remains of 2 black bear (mother cub?) in Cicurina Cave (San Saba County). They brought out the adult skull, but the rest of the remains were washed away in a major flood event before they could be recovered. And in the late 1990s, Bill Stiver recovered a black bear skull from one of the caves on his former ranch in Kimble County. In addition to bones, numerous claw marks of one or more bears are evident in the upper boneyard levels of Deep and Blowhole caves, scratched into the soft limestone. One can imagine the roars echoing through the cave as the unfortunate bear(s) try to climb up the vertical walls, in the total darkness, in vain. *Don't have a copy of /50 Years of Texas Caving/? You don't know what you're missing. You will be amazed how many of your questions about Texas caves, cavers, cave bears, and other subjects you haven't even thought about can be answered in the 526 pages. Contact Carl Kunath in San Angelo at carl.kun...@suddenlink.net orLogan McNatt in Austin at lmcn...@austin.rr.com Logan On 1/4/2014 10:28 AM, Mark Minton wrote: I agree with Andy that the marks David mentioned are likely from a bear. I've seen such marks in several caves in Virginia and West Virginia, often quite far from any known entrance and also not associated with any bones. We've also found large wallows in mud floors that are said to be where bears slept. These signs seem to be more common than I would have imagined. The marks Steve mentioned in Powell's are likely from a raccoon. We found marks like that several places in Honey Creek, also far from any known entrance. Of course it doesn't take much of an entrance for a raccoon, as opposed to a bear... Mark At 11:05 AM 1/4/2014, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: Bear? I've found bear bones in SA caves and there was even a sighting in a local park a few years back. At 10:42 AM 1/4/2014, Steve Keselik wrote: Some years back in Powell's cave we were hoping to find a shorter route to the stream passage via the maze. We didn't find any dig sites that looked promising but we did note some scratch marks about 4' up on the wall that looked like a small animal was trying to get out of the water as they all were in a horizontal line. If that was the case then that means there was water pretty high in the cave, In retrospect maybe it was just bat marks but the line was very straight with no projections to grab on toSteve On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave.I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: black bear remains in Texas caves
We found a set of scratches was found in the Helictite room on a survey trip last year. They were quite large and had a span of about 4 feet or so, but if they were bear scratches I will leave up to the experrts. Gregg On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Pete Lindsley caverp...@gmail.com wrote: The skull collected (with permission of Mr. Loys Newman) from Deep Cave was delivered to Bob Slaughter, Schuler Museum at SMU in Dallas. Slaughter reported that this particular individual, approximately dated ca. 1900-1920, placed very high on the then current Boone Crocket list of large bears killed in the 20th century. The other bones from this individual were left in place in the cave. Numerous bear scratches are still visible in the upper parts of Deep Cave, including small ones which suggests a family of black bears lived in the cave in the early 1900's. - Pete On Jan 4, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Logan McNatt wrote: In 1963, cavers including Pete Lindsley and Preston McMichael collected a black bear skull and bones from Deep Cave . . . (photo by Pete on p. 284)
Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
Some years back in Powell's cave we were hoping to find a shorter route to the stream passage via the maze. We didn't find any dig sites that looked promising but we did note some scratch marks about 4' up on the wall that looked like a small animal was trying to get out of the water as they all were in a horizontal line. If that was the case then that means there was water pretty high in the cave, In retrospect maybe it was just bat marks but the line was very straight with no projections to grab on toSteve On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave.I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
Bear? I've found bear bones in SA caves and there was even a sighting in a local park a few years back. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 4, 2014, at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave.I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
I agree with Andy that the marks David mentioned are likely from a bear. I've seen such marks in several caves in Virginia and West Virginia, often quite far from any known entrance and also not associated with any bones. We've also found large wallows in mud floors that are said to be where bears slept. These signs seem to be more common than I would have imagined. The marks Steve mentioned in Powell's are likely from a raccoon. We found marks like that several places in Honey Creek, also far from any known entrance. Of course it doesn't take much of an entrance for a raccoon, as opposed to a bear... Mark At 11:05 AM 1/4/2014, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: Bear? I've found bear bones in SA caves and there was even a sighting in a local park a few years back. At 10:42 AM 1/4/2014, Steve Keselik wrote: Some years back in Powell's cave we were hoping to find a shorter route to the stream passage via the maze. We didn't find any dig sites that looked promising but we did note some scratch marks about 4' up on the wall that looked like a small animal was trying to get out of the water as they all were in a horizontal line. If that was the case then that means there was water pretty high in the cave, In retrospect maybe it was just bat marks but the line was very straight with no projections to grab on toSteve On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave.I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
Giant Mealy Mouth Ground Sloth.extinct On Jan 4, 2014 9:28 AM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: I agree with Andy that the marks David mentioned are likely from a bear. I've seen such marks in several caves in Virginia and West Virginia, often quite far from any known entrance and also not associated with any bones. We've also found large wallows in mud floors that are said to be where bears slept. These signs seem to be more common than I would have imagined. The marks Steve mentioned in Powell's are likely from a raccoon. We found marks like that several places in Honey Creek, also far from any known entrance. Of course it doesn't take much of an entrance for a raccoon, as opposed to a bear... Mark At 11:05 AM 1/4/2014, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: Bear? I've found bear bones in SA caves and there was even a sighting in a local park a few years back. At 10:42 AM 1/4/2014, Steve Keselik wrote: Some years back in Powell's cave we were hoping to find a shorter route to the stream passage via the maze. We didn't find any dig sites that looked promising but we did note some scratch marks about 4' up on the wall that looked like a small animal was trying to get out of the water as they all were in a horizontal line. If that was the case then that means there was water pretty high in the cave, In retrospect maybe it was just bat marks but the line was very straight with no projections to grab on toSteve On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave.I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
Cave Without a Name has some bear claw marks on the wall. The owner, Tom, pointed them out to me on the wall as you approach the stream passage. They aren't highlighted for tourists because they could be easily damaged. On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to climb out of the cave. I think he said it was a short pit entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal. My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but I don't know if that was the one he was referring to. I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Bigfoot
My sister sent me the following link from the Beaumont paper about the resurgence of black bears in East Texas. http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Black-bears-come-home-to-East-Texas-4793763.php We have them here in Oregon, too. In hard times they wander into the outlying areas around Ashland. I don't remember who said it, but keep your camps clean and your food hanging high to discourage bears from making themselves at home. Just remember, black bears are opportunistic feeders who would much rather find their food in the wild than around people. The majority of their diet is vegetation To find out a lot about black bears, go to the North American Bear Center site: http://www.bear.org/website/ There is a lot on black bear diet on the site today.
