Re: [Texascavers] Caves of Nigeria
Atlas des Cavites non Calcaires du Monde (Claude Chabert and Paul Courbon, 1997) lists one Nigerian cave in granite, one in lava, and six in sandstone (Speleobooks provided my copy). Five of the sandstone caves are listed from the southern state of Anambra and the sixth in Imo, in the SE part of the country. These six caves are reported to be 25-350 m in length. The granite cave, Birnin Kudu, according to my attempt at French translation, is a rock shelter between blocks of granite. The NSS News, 1977, 35 (3), contains an illustration of this 17 m cave. It is listed from the state of Kano in northern Nigeria. When you have one such cave in granite or gneiss, you can have many; at least, that's the case in Norway, North Carolina, and Minnesota. Kassa Cave, 45 m in lava, is near Bununu Kassa in NE Nigeria in Bauchi state. The granite and lava cave locales are right on the edge of the Sahel in the north of Nigeria, so either cave type could be used by bandits. Ann04 has a pic of a bat-inhabited cave in the northern Bauchi state, panoramio.com/photo/2438975, and it sure looks like a natural cave but I cannot tell what kind of rock it is in. Thomas Tvergaard has a shot of the hot spring baths at Wikki Warm Spring, panoramio.com/photo/1090901, in Yankari Nat Pk that contains several other hot springs within a sedimentary geological setting (sandstones, siltstones...). The Yorro Cave in NE Nigeria (access forbidden to outsiders) is evidently one of several in the locale, but I know not its geology. So, it looks like Nigeria has natural caves formed in several rock types, including at least two in the north. Furthermore, any mention of one or a few granitic/gneiss or lava caves and rock shelters implies that there might be many more. On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: Purely speculative but there are thousands of domiciles mined (dug) out of mostly soft sandstone cliffs and spires all over northern Africa. Some are underground and some are extensive. The people that live in them were called Troglodytes long before cavers appeared on the scene. I suspect one must be careful when using the word 'cave' in the vernacular. I think most folks in the world would not make a clear distinction between a dug cave and a natural one. --Ediger On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Actually, that cave is in Anambra state, which is where the sandstone caves are located. The description in The Underground Atlas even mentioned large chambers, lakes and running water. Sounds like they did commercialize one of those sandstone caves. Mark At 02:40 PM 5/13/2014, William Tucker wrote: If articles on Wikipedia can be used as some type of statistical sampling, for whatever it is worth (not much): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Caves_of_Nigeria The only cave listed is a show cave in the southeast. As typical of cave articles outside of the west, little or no mention of the geology or speleology, just cultural and religious significance. No mention if this one is even limestone; though, I suspect it probably is. William -Original Message- From: George Veni Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 1:05 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Caves of Nigeria NCKRI is part of a team working on a new and massively updated World Karst Map. I just looked at the draft map and it doesn't show any karst in Nigeria. However, there are some sedimentary units that are mostly sandstone, shale, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some limestone mixed in those units that doesn't show up at the mapping scale we're using, although we are continuing to dig through the data to pull out more information on karstic and potentially karstic units. The final map will be finished in a couple of years and may show something on Nigeria that isn't in the current draft. In general, I agree with Mark that caves are most likely sandstone shelters or maybe mines. George George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:35 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caves of Nigeria I'm certainly no expert, but Middleton Waltham, The Underground Atlas (1986) says that Nigeria has little surface limestone and no major karst features. However it also says that there are some extensive caves in sandstone. Some are apparently large enough that they were being considered for tourist development. However that is in the southern part of the country, whereas the girls are thought to be held in the north. As is often the case with news reports like this, the so-called
texascavers Digest 14 May 2014 14:11:45 -0000 Issue 1977
texascavers Digest 14 May 2014 14:11:45 - Issue 1977 Topics (messages 23809 through 23826): Caves of Nigeria 23809 by: Preston Forsythe 23813 by: Mark Minton 23816 by: George Veni 23817 by: William Tucker 23819 by: Mark Minton 23820 by: Gill Edigar 23826 by: Buford Pruitt Caves near Columbia, TN 23810 by: kwstafford.juno.com 23811 by: Jim Kennedy 23812 by: Geary Schindel Alamo Cement 23814 by: Bennett Lee 2014 TSA Spring Convention Visual Arts Salon Awards 23815 by: R D Milhollin Re: [SWR] Recruitment help - Term GS-7 Cave Management Specialist 23818 by: Diana Tomchick Nigerian caves 23821 by: Mixon Bill an expensive book 23822 by: David 23823 by: Jim Kennedy 23824 by: Mark Minton 23825 by: Preston Forsythe Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Last night on the PBS NewsHour there was an in-depth interview on the kidnapped girls in Nigeria. They are suspected of being hidden in endless caves in the mountains along the border. Are there any Nigeria cave experts out there? Preston in KY ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I'm certainly no expert, but Middleton Waltham, The Underground Atlas (1986) says that Nigeria has little surface limestone and no major karst features. However it also says that there are some extensive caves in sandstone. Some are apparently large enough that they were being considered for tourist development. However that is in the southern part of the country, whereas the girls are thought to be held in the north. As is often the case with news reports like this, the so-called caves may really be mines and/or rock shelters. Mark At 08:59 AM 5/13/2014, Preston Forsythe wrote: Last night on the PBS NewsHour there was an in-depth interview on the kidnapped girls in Nigeria. They are suspected of being hidden in endless caves in the mountains along the border. Are there any Nigeria cave experts out there? Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- NCKRI is part of a team working on a new and massively updated World Karst Map. I just looked at the draft map and it doesn't show any karst in Nigeria. However, there are some sedimentary units that are mostly sandstone, shale, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some limestone mixed in those units that doesn't show up at the mapping scale we're using, although we are continuing to dig through the data to pull out more information on karstic and potentially karstic units. The final map will be finished in a couple of years and may show something on Nigeria that isn't in the current draft. In general, I agree with Mark that caves are most likely sandstone shelters or maybe mines. George George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:35 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caves of Nigeria I'm certainly no expert, but Middleton Waltham, The Underground Atlas (1986) says that Nigeria has little surface limestone and no major karst features. However it also says that there are some extensive caves in sandstone. Some are apparently large enough that they were being considered for tourist development. However that is in the southern part of the country, whereas the girls are thought to be held in the north. As is often the case with news reports like this, the so-called caves may really be mines and/or rock shelters. Mark At 08:59 AM 5/13/2014, Preston Forsythe wrote: Last night on the PBS NewsHour there was an in-depth interview on the kidnapped girls in Nigeria. They are suspected of being hidden in endless caves in the mountains along the border. Are there any Nigeria cave experts out there? Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- If articles on Wikipedia can be used as some type of statistical sampling, for whatever it is worth (not much):
[Texascavers] New subterranean catfish found in India
http://news.msn.com/science-technology/alien-catfish-baffles-scientists
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
As a federal employee, I have to say cavers are not the only publics we have to work with and try to satisfy And to say that we not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas, is a small-minded way to look at the situation. You could turn that around and say the same about you in this case. Go throw your tantrum in somebody else's yard. You're as bad as those folks who rallied around the rancher in Nevada. From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: jmofgu...@gmail.com; pjca...@gwi.net Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:28:33 -0600 CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; derekbris...@comcast.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore, the excessively brief period allowed for comments sends the message that the concern and experience of the caving community counts for little. Michael Queen On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net wrote: Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably into space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe. Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife. Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too early yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action, whether or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already spread WNS across the entire universe. Derek Bristol Are there now bats in the space station?? Do they hang head up? If they fly around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76 sleep/awake cycles per day. That must mean there are also a lot of moths on the space station. Are there astronaut cavers as well? I thought everything they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot in the station. Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers? All these questions must be researched and answered!! Peter ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
This is leaving the realm of a discussion on the origin of WNS and jumping into the pile on government agencies because they don't agree with me area. Grow up and go throw your tantrum somewhere else in another country, perhaps, where you can freely criticize a government whose policies you don't agree with. You don't live in your version of paradise where everybody agrees with you. You sound like an eight-year-old. Come on into the adult world where you are not the only person the government has to make happy. Better yet, go to work for a government agency and see if you can do better. Self-centered individuals like certain cavers are not the only people federal employees have to deal with. Welcome to adult reality. I fhink if's time to leave the all agencies who don't do what I want are bad agencies discussion. It's not productive. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:18 -0600 From: speleozarkis...@gmail.com To: dgda...@nyx.net; s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas did anyone ever feel accommodated and welcomed by the forest, blm, etc? or am i only the one that felt merely tolerated? I know occasionally there would be research or mapping and times they would use us. but in a lot of areas it was just a nuisance for the authorities (rescuing spelunkers, permits for certain caves, opening gates, closing gates, building gates.) now a simple $20,000 fine keeps us all out. at the risk of sounding like some paranoid libertarian it is fascinating to see how a right, freedom, liberty, privilege however the hell caving in the forest is legally classified... can so quickly and easily become just a memory. sure you can trust the government, just ask an indian On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:51 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS dgda...@nyx.net wrote: Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Early on in discussions of the spread of WNS it was pointed out that Howe Caverns (where WNS was first detected) is only 40 miles from the Port of Albany. An infected bat could very easily have hitched a ride from Europe to the US on a boat and then taken up residence in Howe Caverns. There is no need, or even likelihood, that a human vector was involved (other than running the ship). The CDC has published research showing how bats can be translocated over long distances: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/pdfs/02-0104.pdf Too bad the media doesn't point this out instead of mindlessly repeating the possibility that WNS came on a caver's boot. :-( Mark Yes, and it's not just a new observation: Charles Darwin himself wrote that bats had been seen on ships far out at sea. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
I am loving the parody... Weird al watch out... If only you record it in a cave On May 13, 2014 11:23 PM, Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net wrote: A llitle levity (the best I could come up with at a late hour-early apologies for this) Roughly-best sung to a popular Beatles song only in the company of those you trust Someone hada cup o' tea, and they went into a cave, didn't clean their boots and a biologist began to rave, (didn't clean their boots cause the mud was in their eye (not a butter pie), YES! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES ACROSS THE SKY AY AY AY! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES WAY OUT IN SPA, A, A , ACE…. Not a bit o'scientific proof, and the paper had a goof -not a footnote on the page, no supporting documents, not a bit you'd think to wage, Europeans were to blame, and that is such a shame, YES SHAME… -SO- when it was found out a new debate began to rage, (footnote? HA!! who needs a footnote when you got hysteria?! )HYS-TER-I-A! NOW, when ya send an e mail, just to make it clear, a few supporting documents just to hold it dear, Be like Officer Friday on the Show DRAGNET, stick to the facts an' make it clear you bet, YOU BET! NO emotions allow'd Allowed, ALL TOGETHER NOW (please) Spores across the water, water, spores (MAYBE?) under y'r boots ya ya ya! SPORES way out in space, SPA ACE, SPORES, got on your face……. (I think there was some tambourine at this point) Respectfully, There is a message here though…… Just the facts, keep emotions to a minimum, and as has already been requested, supporting documents. Validity, and proper scientific process are important-DUH (sorry, couldn't resist). Extrapolation of data based on subjective, rather than objective data, is not valid, and never will be. As Peter Jones said Let the debate continue!! Carl Pagano…... Begin forwarded message: *From: *Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com *Subject: **Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas* *Date: *May 13, 2014 12:28:33 PM MDT *To: *Mike Queen jmofgu...@gmail.com, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net *Cc: *Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net, SWR Cavers s...@caver.net, Derek Bristol derekbris...@comcast.net, Donald Davis dgda...@nyx.net, Debbie Buecher dbuec...@comcast.net Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. -- Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how *humans are a vector* even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency,
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
The NSA will be compiling locations from these emails. Lysol drones will soon arrive to disinfect you all. Remember, Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds - Einstein On May 14, 2014 5:51 AM, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote: This is leaving the realm of a discussion on the origin of WNS and jumping into the pile on government agencies because they don't agree with me area. Grow up and go throw your tantrum somewhere else in another country, perhaps, where you can freely criticize a government whose policies you don't agree with. You don't live in your version of paradise where everybody agrees with you. You sound like an eight-year-old. Come on into the adult world where you are not the only person the government has to make happy. Better yet, go to work for a government agency and see if you can do better. Self-centered individuals like certain cavers are not the only people federal employees have to deal with. Welcome to adult reality. I fhink if's time to leave the all agencies who don't do what I want are bad agencies discussion. It's not productive. -- Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:18 -0600 From: speleozarkis...@gmail.com To: dgda...@nyx.net; s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas did anyone ever feel accommodated and welcomed by the forest, blm, etc? or am i only the one that felt merely tolerated? I know occasionally there would be research or mapping and times they would use us. but in a lot of areas it was just a nuisance for the authorities (rescuing spelunkers, permits for certain caves, opening gates, closing gates, building gates.) now a simple $20,000 fine keeps us all out. at the risk of sounding like some paranoid libertarian it is fascinating to see how a right, freedom, liberty, privilege however the hell caving in the forest is legally classified... can so quickly and easily become just a memory. sure you can trust the government, just ask an indian On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:51 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS dgda...@nyx.net wrote: Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Early on in discussions of the spread of WNS it was pointed out that Howe Caverns (where WNS was first detected) is only 40 miles from the Port of Albany. An infected bat could very easily have hitched a ride from Europe to the US on a boat and then taken up residence in Howe Caverns. There is no need, or even likelihood, that a human vector was involved (other than running the ship). The CDC has published research showing how bats can be translocated over long distances: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/pdfs/02-0104.pdf Too bad the media doesn't point this out instead of mindlessly repeating the possibility that WNS came on a caver's boot. :-( Mark Yes, and it's not just a new observation: Charles Darwin himself wrote that bats had been seen on ships far out at sea. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
On May 14, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Maybe so, but this is where the role of the volunteer could step in to assist in cave management, and in fact this is already being done by various volunteer caving groups around the country. Join your local group (NSS, CRF, cave conservation group, whatever) that has a good working relationship with the pertinent government agency and ask, what can I do to help? and you just may get that chance to go caving. Diana This is the mindset that has killed caving. It's no longer believed appropriate by many to just go caving for fun. Now, there must be an approved reason and a promise of a product produced before you are allowed to use a publicly-owned resource. That is wrong. Folks are welcome to engage in such activities, but NOT to the exclusion of those who wish merely to have a recreational experience on public land. Enacting access restrictions based on non-science and whim is not management. Stephen Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but (and I say this as someone who grew up in Washington State, where ~3/4 of the property is owned by the state or federal government or is in a Native American reservation) there has to be SOME kind of management of these lands for the benefit not only of all U.S. citizens, but also for the resource. If you want the resource (in this case, caves and bats) to benefit not just the short-term interest of people that are currently alive and active but also for the future generations, well then there needs to be some sort of management. Heck, I would think that people on this list serve might be just as riled about the impacts of oil and gas drilling on BLM lands, but maybe that's a hornet's nest that's best left undisturbed... Frankly, I've found that the people that seem to stay involved in caving for the longest number of years are the ones that go beyond just caving for fun or recreational caving, and get involved in project caving (restoration, survey, science, etc.). There are caves on private lands available for the recreational cavers. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biophysics 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214A Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] Sandstone caves
There is a small sandstone cave in Texas worth visiting once if you live within a 4 hour drive of it. The only reason cavers do not regularly visit it, is that it is about as remote as some of the caves in far west Texas. My theory about the cave, is that a natural water flow about that of a garden hose found its way upward vertically from the aquifer through the path of least resistance in the substrate, which appears to be a compacted mixture of clay and sandstone. Only a wild guess would say that after a few thousand years, a path was created big enough for small mammals to enter, and voids developed, as natural erosion took place. My guess is that in the early formation of the cave about 10,000 years ago, the cave was longer, probably 400 feet of stomach-crawling size passage, with only the exit of the tiny subterrenean stream as a entry point for small mammals. Then about 5,000 years ago, where the spring entered the void at the back of the cave, a small room or walking size passage collapsed creating a 30 foot deep sinkhole ( which can be rappelled into ). Thereafter, the collapsed material was washed downstream by floods, eventually forming a through passage, but not walking size passage. Sometime more recently, the passage became big enough for humans to enter. But I bet it was just crawling size passage. Maybe native-Americans entered the cave 1,000 years ago, as it was the only natural shelter for 100's of miles. But they had an abundant supply of trees and fur, ( to make better housing that the wife would have prefered ) So I doubt the early native-Americans ever lived in it. Maybe 500 years ago, and Indian stumbled onto it and used it like a hunter's camp, or his private vacation spot. European and American settlers ( cotton farmers and loggers and later oil drillers ), may have entered the cave in the mid 1800's and scraped the walls either for marking they were there, or for curiosity. That digging and the natural erosional forces from floods ( tropical storms or hurricane remnants ) had to have enlarged the cave in some capacity. Some dates from the late 1800's, can be seen in the etchings, but so much vandalism, has destroyed most of that. I bet the heyday of caving activity and fun was in the 1910's. ( My ancestors lived about 23 miles by buggy from the cave from 1900 to the 1950's. I do not think they ever travelled far from home, so going here would have been a big road-trip. ) The cave is heavily vandalized with deep etchings, done with wooden or metal stick. And later spray paint, which actually doesn't stick for very long, or gets rubbed off by locals spelunking. I am really surprised the cave has not changed much. I first saw it in 1987, and would have bet it would have washed away by now, but most of it seems nearly identical. I think that any cavers who attend SFASU in Nacodoches, should make an effort to visit it and publish a trip report, or write an article for the Texas Caver. I have always wanted to bottle the water into a fancy bottle and sell it at caving conventions. I doubt the water is drinkable, but I would bet it can be purified to be as good as some other bottled water products. There were about 3 bats in the cave in 1987, but I do not ever remember seeing bats on other visits. But I think there are scars on the ceiling of bat roost. The bat history at this cave is limited to the years is had accesible passage to them, which I think is just recently on a geologic timescale. So, I am saying for the million years or so that bats lived in east Texas, they did not have this cave or any others to permanently shelter in. The NSS felt the cave was important enough to mention it in Bulletin # 10. ( see post from yesterday ) I do not know who would be the authority on the cave. Caver Roger Moore knows as much about it as anybody I know of, and may have caving pictures. The TSS has a pamphlet on the topic, by Gerald Atkinson. The last I heard, ( about 2 or 3 years ago ) the same owner owns it and lives up on a small hill near the cave. He would be in his late 70's now, I would think. I could not find him anywhere recently on the internet. Unfortunately, the cave is in the middle of the property, and one would have to purchase probably 50 acres of prime timber harvesting land in order to buy it from him. He uses the water from the cave to maintain a large nasty pond on his lake. The cave is marked with a cave-symbol on the USGS topo map, about 7 miles due south of the town of Center. David Locklear NSS # 27639 Ref: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Preserve-Protect-Gunnels-Cave/111719558859888 http://texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/publications/images/EastTexas.jpg
