[Texascavers] Caves near Boerne

[David]

Dropped pin

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PhNzdaw6FPbvRdqK7

In 1987, a former Aggie Caver who was from Boerne took me to an interesting
cave east of Boerne about 5 miles.

He called it "Klar's Ranch Salamander Cave." ('#1 or # 2 ? ).

I think we only went in one of the two caves, but that was the most
crawling that I ever did in one day.

The trip leader, is now Dr. Jim Mueller.   He lives in Burnet.  He is a
specialist with horned lizards and songbirds.  I think he works in or
associated with TPWD.

We have exchanged vague Facebook messages, but he did not express any
interest in reminiscing the old A.S.S. days with me.Maybe someone else
could get him interested.  I can't imagine he would have given up caving.

He had done a ton of spelunking around Boerne before rekindling the A. S.
S. in the fall of 1983.

He saved my life twice on the same day in Las Grutas de Precipicio in
December of 1983.  But he is also responsible for taking 6 newbie cavers
there with just one set of vertical gear.  We may have all died that day,
had it not been for one newbie, who was wise enough to see the trip
deteriorating and remained at the top of the 2nd drop.

I have tried my best to get him to write the story, and other caving
stories.

D. L.
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Re: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question

[George Veni]

Spring Creek Cave is the only cave on the El Max that I recall having perennial 
water to potentially support Eurycea.

George


George  Veni, PhD
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
and
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)

NCKRI address (primary)
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
Office: +575-887-5517
Mobile: +210-863-5919
Fax: +575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org

UIS address
Titov trg 2
Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
www.uis-speleo.org

From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of 
grub...@centurytel.net
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2019 20:05
To: texascavers 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question

What I'd like to find is references to any articles that William wrote or talks 
he gave at TSA ec It'd also be nice to find what caves are in the area he was 
talking about.  Sam S Sweet remembers William mentioning the El Max but they 
didnt find any salamander caves there so its not in his notes ( Sam was a grad 
student from Berkley who worked on Eurycea salamanders in the 70s and made 
really good field notes that present day salamander workers find very useful)  
The El Max was 7200 acres so 12 square miles or 3 x 4 mile sized ranch


From: "George Veni" mailto:gv...@nckri.org>>
To: "texascavers" 
mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 10:00:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question

Andy,

There are many caves on the former El Max Ranch. The stratigraphy of the area 
needs a closer look. To the east at Honey Creek we see a well-defined and 
distinctive 9-m thick biostrome (a fossil reef bed) in which Honey Creek Cave 
is formed. That biostrome unit isn't exposed in the El Max/CWAN area. Those 
caves are stratigraphically higher in a part of the lower member of the Glen 
Rose that clearly forms abundant caves there, but relatively few and smaller 
caves to the east. Maybe this is simply a bias created by the properties cavers 
had had permission to explore, or maybe there is something going on 
geologically creating a true difference in cave development.

The USGS has conducted detailed geologic mapping north of Bexar County. They 
recently completed some nice work in Comal County. I don't recall if they told 
me they would be mapping in Kendall County, which would help answer these 
questions, or if they just hoped for funding to map that county. Geary might 
know.

George



(Sent from my mobile phone)

George  Veni, PhD
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
and
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)


NCKRI address (primary)
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
Office: +575-887-5517
Mobile: +210-863-5919
Fax: +575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org


UIS address
Titov trg 2
Postojna, 6230 Slovenia


 Original message 
From: grub...@centurytel.net
Date: 8/17/19 19:56 (GMT-07:00)
To: texascavers 
mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
Subject: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question

Does anyone remember the caves on the El Max ranch, Kendall county ?  Does 
anyone remember anything about the El Max limestone ?  Way back in the 60s 
cavers went to caves there.  Bill Russell gave a talk, maybe wrote some 
articles in the Texas Caver at the time about the geology of that area.  He 
suggested using the name El Max limestone for a very cavernous section of the 
lower Glen Rose limestone that was prominently exposed on the El Max ranch.  
These would be caves near the Guadalupe river ( I think)  same sort of geologic 
setting as Cave-with out a name, Spring Creek, Alzafar water cave.  I remember 
talking to William about this back in the 70s when we were looking for cave 
salamanders and Kendall county was one of our favorite places to go.  I also 
sort of remember seeing something in a old TC or TSA convention notes. Looking 
up the El Max ranch it was 7200 acres and had Guadalupe river frontage.  Part 
of it is now the Cordierra Ranch subdivision.

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Re: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question

[grubbsi]

What I'd like to find is references to any articles that William wrote or talks 
he gave at TSA ec It'd also be nice to find what caves are in the area he was 
talking about. Sam S Sweet remembers William mentioning the El Max but they 
didnt find any salamander caves there so its not in his notes ( Sam was a grad 
student from Berkley who worked on Eurycea salamanders in the 70s and made 
really good field notes that present day salamander workers find very useful) 
The El Max was 7200 acres so 12 square miles or 3 x 4 mile sized ranch 


From: "George Veni"  
To: "texascavers"  
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 10:00:58 PM 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question 

Andy, 

There are many caves on the former El Max Ranch. The stratigraphy of the area 
needs a closer look. To the east at Honey Creek we see a well-defined and 
distinctive 9-m thick biostrome (a fossil reef bed) in which Honey Creek Cave 
is formed. That biostrome unit isn't exposed in the El Max/CWAN area. Those 
caves are stratigraphically higher in a part of the lower member of the Glen 
Rose that clearly forms abundant caves there, but relatively few and smaller 
caves to the east. Maybe this is simply a bias created by the properties cavers 
had had permission to explore, or maybe there is something going on 
geologically creating a true difference in cave development. 

The USGS has conducted detailed geologic mapping north of Bexar County. They 
recently completed some nice work in Comal County. I don't recall if they told 
me they would be mapping in Kendall County, which would help answer these 
questions, or if they just hoped for funding to map that county. Geary might 
know. 

George 



(Sent from my mobile phone) 
 
George Veni, PhD 
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) 
and 
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS) 

NCKRI address (primary) 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA 
Office: +575-887-5517 
Mobile: +210-863-5919 
Fax: +575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

UIS address 
Titov trg 2 
Postojna, 6230 Slovenia 


 Original message  
From: grub...@centurytel.net 
Date: 8/17/19 19:56 (GMT-07:00) 
To: texascavers  
Subject: [Texascavers] El Max ranch El Max limestone; Geology question 

Does anyone remember the caves on the El Max ranch, Kendall county ? Does 
anyone remember anything about the El Max limestone ? Way back in the 60s 
cavers went to caves there. Bill Russell gave a talk, maybe wrote some articles 
in the Texas Caver at the time about the geology of that area. He suggested 
using the name El Max limestone for a very cavernous section of the lower Glen 
Rose limestone that was prominently exposed on the El Max ranch. These would be 
caves near the Guadalupe river ( I think) same sort of geologic setting as 
Cave-with out a name, Spring Creek, Alzafar water cave. I remember talking to 
William about this back in the 70s when we were looking for cave salamanders 
and Kendall county was one of our favorite places to go. I also sort of 
remember seeing something in a old TC or TSA convention notes. Looking up the 
El Max ranch it was 7200 acres and had Guadalupe river frontage. Part of it is 
now the Cordierra Ranch subdivision. 

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[Texascavers] Call for musicians

[Vivian Loftin]

 This is an open call for anyone who can play an instrument or keep a beat 
to join us in making joyful sounds to celebrate the life of Ernie Garza by 
helping lead a New Orleans style second line parade. Ernie loved music. This 
will take place just before the awards ceremony on Saturday night at TCR. 
Contact:
Vivian Loftin
vivb...@att.net
512 659-9486
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