Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Aimee Beveridge]

I remember being on the trip to the Powell’s Cave with the Tree Root Scientist 
back in the last millennium.  


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Saturday, May 1, 2021, 7:19 PM, AC  wrote:

Tree roots are very common in Hawaiian lava tubes. They are often where insects 
are found because of the low amount of organic matter in lava tubes. 
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The are also quite common in tropical caves as the trees are seeking water. 
I’ve seen tree roots in caves with as much as 20 m of overburden. 
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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Mark Minton]

I remember when we were taking Jackson to sample tree roots in caves that we 
speculated that the trees able to access cave streams might be more luxurious 
than neighboring trees that didn’t have their toes in the water. I don’t know 
whether he ever looked into that or not, but it would obviously be of interest 
to cavers. It sounds like John might provide pretty direct proof, if he can 
find any of those hypothesized passages where the trees suggest.

 

This reminds me of a related concept I came up with back in my early days of 
caving in the ‘70s. I hypothesized that grazing cattle would align themselves 
with cave passages because the voids below would result in lower gravity than 
“solid” ground, thus making it easier for the cattle to support their weight. I 
extended this theory to suggest that by following the lines of cow pies in a 
field, one could predict where there were cave passages below. I never followed 
up on this theory, but it might be worth investigating. I called it the 
bovine-flux theory of cave location.

 

Mark M

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
John Brooks
Sent: Saturday, May 1, 2021 7:09 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves



We see tree roots in Arbuckle Mountain caves pretty regularly. Most of the 
time, the roots are found closer to entrances or near entrances that we haven’t 
found yet. 

An interesting correlation to roots is seeing vegetation bands across rock 
prairie areas that appear to follow faults that align with cave passages. I 
have noticed many times, really thick jungle like vegetation following these 
faults and known cave passages. Which led to noticing a +/- mile and a half 
long jungle of brush that is around +/- 60 feet wide. With numerous sink 
features along it. And there are dozens of caves that drain toward it. I have 
called it the “green crack”. And it lines up with the “end” of a major known 
cave.

There aren’t any noticeable tree roots near the “end”, but it’s obvious that 
the vegetation is taking advantage of the water in the cave. I have speculated 
that there are cave passages beneath the “green crack” - but we have not found 
a way into it. But it could also just be a really large water collector with 
smaller cave passage connections.

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Jim Kennedy  wrote:

Thanks, Mark. I took those guys to lots of caves, and never heard any results, 
either. 

 

Jim

Mobile email from my iPhone



On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Minton  wrote:

While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came across 
an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the references 
in that article caught my eye: “Ecosystem rooting depth determined with caves 
and DNA” by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas cavers, myself included, helped 
Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back in the ‘90s. He was especially 
interested in how deep underground one might find roots invading a cave. I took 
him to a place pretty far back in the TB survey in Honey Creek Cave where there 
were a lot of roots coming through cracks in the ceiling. He collected samples 
and did DNA analysis to find out what kinds of trees the roots came from. He 
also collected in Powell’s Cave, among others. I had not seen the results of 
his research before. If anyone is interested, the article is available for free 
download at <https://www.pnas.org/content/96/20/11387>.

 

Mark Minton

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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[AC]

Tree roots are very common in Hawaiian lava tubes. They are often where insects 
are found because of the low amount of organic matter in lava tubes. 

The are also quite common in tropical caves as the trees are seeking water. 
I’ve seen tree roots in caves with as much as 20 m of overburden. 

Allan___
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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[John Brooks]


We see tree roots in Arbuckle Mountain caves pretty regularly. Most of the 
time, the roots are found closer to entrances or near entrances that we haven’t 
found yet. 
An interesting correlation to roots is seeing vegetation bands across rock 
prairie areas that appear to follow faults that align with cave passages. I 
have noticed many times, really thick jungle like vegetation following these 
faults and known cave passages. Which led to noticing a +/- mile and a half 
long jungle of brush that is around +/- 60 feet wide. With numerous sink 
features along it. And there are dozens of caves that drain toward it. I have 
called it the “green crack”. And it lines up with the “end” of a major known 
cave.
There aren’t any noticeable tree roots near the “end”, but it’s obvious that 
the vegetation is taking advantage of the water in the cave. I have speculated 
that there are cave passages beneath the “green crack” - but we have not found 
a way into it. But it could also just be a really large water collector with 
smaller cave passage connections.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Jim Kennedy  wrote:
> Thanks, Mark. I took those guys to lots of caves, and never heard any 
> results, either. 
> 
> Jim
> 
> Mobile email from my iPhone
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Minton  wrote:
>> 
>> While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came 
>> across an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the 
>> references in that article caught my eye: “Ecosystem rooting depth 
>> determined with caves and DNA” by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas 
>> cavers, myself included, helped Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back 
>> in the ‘90s. He was especially interested in how deep underground one might 
>> find roots invading a cave. I took him to a place pretty far back in the TB 
>> survey in Honey Creek Cave where there were a lot of roots coming through 
>> cracks in the ceiling. He collected samples and did DNA analysis to find out 
>> what kinds of trees the roots came from. He also collected in Powell’s Cave, 
>> among others. I had not seen the results of his research before. If anyone 
>> is interested, the article is available for free download at 
>> .
>>  
>> Mark Minton
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Jerry]

 If anyone is interested, I have several more papers that were written on 
different aspects of the root studies. 

Jerry Atkinson. 
-Original Message-
From: George Veni 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Fri, Apr 30, 2021 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

#yiv0797902551 #yiv0797902551 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered 
{}#yiv0797902551 #yiv0797902551 p.yiv0797902551MsoNormal, #yiv0797902551 
li.yiv0797902551MsoNormal, #yiv0797902551 div.yiv0797902551MsoNormal 
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#yiv0797902551 div.yiv0797902551xmsonormal 
{margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv0797902551 
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.yiv0797902551MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv0797902551 
div.yiv0797902551WordSection1 {}#yiv0797902551 And here is a follow-up paper 
published 11 years later.    George     George  Veni, PhD 
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) and 
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)    NCKRI address (primary) 
400-1 Cascades Avenue  Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA Office: +575-887-5517 
Mobile: +210-863-5919 Fax: +575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org     UIS 
address Titov trg 2 Postojna, 6230 Slovenia     From: Texascavers 
On Behalf Of Reddell, James R
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 15:37
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves    Here is the formal 
publication of the results of the Texas tree root study.    James From: 
Texascavers  on behalf of Jim Kennedy 

Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 11:34 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves    Thanks, Mark. I took those 
guys to lots of caves, and never heard any results, either.     Jim Mobile 
email from my iPhone 

 
On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Minton  wrote: 

  While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came 
across an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the 
references in that article caught my eye: “Ecosystem rooting depth determined 
with caves and DNA” by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas cavers, myself 
included, helped Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back in the ‘90s. He 
was especially interested in how deep underground one might find roots invading 
a cave. I took him to a place pretty far back in the TB survey in Honey Creek 
Cave where there were a lot of roots coming through cracks in the ceiling. He 
collected samples and did DNA analysis to find out what kinds of trees the 
roots came from. He also collected in Powell’s Cave, among others. I had not 
seen the results of his research before. If anyone is interested, the article 
is available for free download at <https://www.pnas.org/content/96/20/11387>.   
Mark Minton ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Jon]

 Cool, thanksJon
On Friday, April 30, 2021, 10:04:10 AM CDT, Mark Minton  
wrote:  
 
 
While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came across 
an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the references 
in that article caught my eye: “Ecosystem rooting depth determined with caves 
and DNA” by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas cavers, myself included, helped 
Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back in the ‘90s. He was especially 
interested in how deep underground one might find roots invading a cave. I took 
him to a place pretty far back in the TB survey in Honey Creek Cave where there 
were a lot of roots coming through cracks in the ceiling. He collected samples 
and did DNA analysis to find out what kinds of trees the roots came from. He 
also collected in Powell’s Cave, among others. I had not seen the results of 
his research before. If anyone is interested, the article is available for free 
download at .

  

Mark Minton
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Re: [Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Jim Kennedy]

Thanks, Mark. I took those guys to lots of caves, and never heard any results, 
either. 

Jim

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Minton  wrote:
> 
> 
> While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came across 
> an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the 
> references in that article caught my eye: “Ecosystem rooting depth determined 
> with caves and DNA” by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas cavers, myself 
> included, helped Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back in the ‘90s. He 
> was especially interested in how deep underground one might find roots 
> invading a cave. I took him to a place pretty far back in the TB survey in 
> Honey Creek Cave where there were a lot of roots coming through cracks in the 
> ceiling. He collected samples and did DNA analysis to find out what kinds of 
> trees the roots came from. He also collected in Powell’s Cave, among others. 
> I had not seen the results of his research before. If anyone is interested, 
> the article is available for free download at 
> .
>  
> Mark Minton
> ___
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[Texascavers] Tree Roots in Caves

[Mark Minton]

While thumbing through the April NSS News (conservation issue), I came
across an article about tree roots in lava tubes in New Mexico. One of the
references in that article caught my eye: "Ecosystem rooting depth
determined with caves and DNA" by R. B. Jackson, et al. Several Texas
cavers, myself included, helped Jackson collect roots in caves in Texas back
in the '90s. He was especially interested in how deep underground one might
find roots invading a cave. I took him to a place pretty far back in the TB
survey in Honey Creek Cave where there were a lot of roots coming through
cracks in the ceiling. He collected samples and did DNA analysis to find out
what kinds of trees the roots came from. He also collected in Powell's Cave,
among others. I had not seen the results of his research before. If anyone
is interested, the article is available for free download at
.

 

Mark Minton

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