texascavers Digest 26 Oct 2013 01:35:48 -0000 Issue 1875
Topics (messages 22973 through 22988):
Re: Poison-ivy
22973 by: Charles Goldsmith
22977 by: Fritz Holt
various topics
22974 by: David
a zip-lining video
22975 by: David
Cave diver Tom Iliffe wins award :
22976 by: jerryatkin.aol.com
Apology to Missy
22978 by: Carl Kunath
cave rescue medicine
22979 by: Mixon Bill
another cave rescue article
22980 by: Mixon Bill
22984 by: Mark Minton
contact with grotto
22981 by: Espeleo Coahuila
correction to my last post
22982 by: David
Re: Tom Meador Award
22983 by: Jim Evatt
Endangered Species Habitat Protected
22985 by: Mark Minton
new book from AMCS, bulletin erratum
22986 by: Mixon Bill
cavetex alternative
22987 by: Herman Miller
2013 TCR Vertical Contest Winners
22988 by: goody twoshoes
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Sheesh, some people. Simply browsing to http://texascavers.com/ will get
you the instructions on this list. Also, my mailing list software includes
headers which tells you how to unsubscribe, and it also includes a footer,
with instructions as well. Problem is, most email clients hide both of
these.
As most people probably know, you can't unsubscribe from a single thread,
the software isn't that complicated, it's an opt-in list, you get all mail.
Delete what you don't want.
Charles
mailing list administrator and lurker :)
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 6:15 PM, <jerryat...@aol.com> wrote:
> I agree with Jon. The comments directed to Missy were entirely uncalled
> for.
>
> Jerry.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 23, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Jon Cradit <jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org>
> wrote:
>
> This seems to me to be symptomatic of what our society is increasingly
> accepting as the norm or acceptable behavior. This is becoming more common
> in how we treat our “friends”, our extended family of cavers, who at times
> we depend on for our safety and at times our life. We see this in our
> politicians and the dysfunctional government. It hurts people to the
> bone. Is it truly necessary? The personal attacks and name calling. Can
> we no longer have a civil discussion and accept each other’s personal
> quirks? It’s easy for someone, “them”, to press DELETE, the same is true
> for me and you, if I don’t want to read their post.****
>
> ****
>
> Just wondering….****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:57 PM
> *To:* Missy Singleton
> *Cc:* <texascavers@texascavers.com>texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy****
>
> ** **
>
> You are obviously an idiot (sic) then since you don’t realize there is no
> way to avoid a thread when you’re on a mailing list :-)****
>
> ** **
>
> If you tell the list what sort of tool/filter you use to read email –
> Outlook, Yahoo, Gmail, etc. I’m sure some nice person who’s more
> technically savvy than I am (I just use the delete button in Outlook) will
> tell you how to set up the appropriate filter.****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers,****
>
> Stefan****
>
> ** **
>
> *(Deleteing the rest for Sleaze’s benefit :-)*****
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782****
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Missy,
I apologize for the idiots who called you by their name. Please forgive them as
they are in the minority.
Fritz
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2013, at 6:15 PM, jerryat...@aol.com wrote:
> I agree with Jon. The comments directed to Missy were entirely uncalled for.
>
> Jerry.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 23, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Jon Cradit <jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org> wrote:
>
>> This seems to me to be symptomatic of what our society is increasingly
>> accepting as the norm or acceptable behavior. This is becoming more common
>> in how we treat our “friends”, our extended family of cavers, who at times
>> we depend on for our safety and at times our life. We see this in our
>> politicians and the dysfunctional government. It hurts people to the bone.
>> Is it truly necessary? The personal attacks and name calling. Can we no
>> longer have a civil discussion and accept each other’s personal quirks?
>> It’s easy for someone, “them”, to press DELETE, the same is true for me and
>> you, if I don’t want to read their post.
>>
>>
>> Just wondering….
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:57 PM
>> To: Missy Singleton
>> Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
>>
>>
>>
>> You are obviously an idiot (sic) then since you don’t realize there is no
>> way to avoid a thread when you’re on a mailing list :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> If you tell the list what sort of tool/filter you use to read email –
>> Outlook, Yahoo, Gmail, etc. I’m sure some nice person who’s more technically
>> savvy than I am (I just use the delete button in Outlook) will tell you how
>> to set up the appropriate filter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> (Deleteing the rest for Sleaze’s benefit :-)
>>
>>
>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
>> information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
>> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to be courteous here and posting 7 post in one post.
Topic # 1
Below is a short caving video published back in April. I am behind
on checking YouTube for interesting things, but this video has some things
in it that are worth discussing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKANQSBRg1U
If you can ignore for a moment, that they are spelunking with few light sources
and are messing with a bat with their bare hands, you may notice that
they caved in a group and did not harm the cave. In fact, they all
explored several hundred feet of the cave barefooted. The
video-camera is always in focus in the small spot where they
have lighting.
Most interesting is their squat-walking technique. I don't know many
cavers that
could do that for very long, especially barefooted. The sound
quality is good, and
it would be great if someone could re-post this with subtitles.
I wonder if they collected water for drinking purposes or for some
other reason ?
Topic # 2.
Missy is a great person to have around. She ramroded the A.S.S. back about 6
years ago, I think. Her and her husband where a huge help with
NaturFest a few
years ago. I think they do most of their caving around Baton Rouge now.
Topic # 3
First-aid related. I would like to put my personal seal of
approval on the following
product as something worth carrying with you in your road-trip kit.
http://pics1.ds-static.com/prodimg/354003/500.JPG
If you get poison-ivy on the genitals and rectum, my personal
experience is that this
is something you can put on it to "temporarily" help. I tried
putting it on the face,
but it gave the eyes a burning sensation that was uncomfortable. It remains
moist on the wound, so you have to cover the cream with something to keep it
from getting all over everything. One camp said keep the wound dry, another
camp said keep it moist.
The pharmacist recommended that I ask my doctor for a prescription of Medrol.
( methylprednisolone ). I have not done that yet. My fuzzy memory tells me
I used some of that from a farmacia down in Mexico after coming into
contact with
Mala Mujer, which trumps Poison Ivy.
If a young enthusiastic caver would write a really good article for a
caving magazine on
the latest treatments for various rashes that cavers could potentially
encounter, I would
bet that numerous cavers would read it. For example, you don't
want to get the
poison-ivy on your cell-phone or computer keyboard, so you want to
constantly keep
your hands clean or use thin cotton gloves, or latex gloves.
One web-site claims the Mean Green hand cleaner is the exact substance used in
the very expensive Zanfel poison-ivy cream. Supposedly some kind of emollient.
Topic # 4
A caver tried their best to give me a ride to show up
late Saturday night at TCR, but there was no way I could go.
Topic # 5
If any of you are shopping for a Android tablet in the upcoming
shopping season, I would
recommend taking a look at the Kocaso M1400. This is good way to
show your caving photos and videos to a small group of people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-HBj4qjMM0
Topic # 6
My recent post about cavers on Linkedin, I forgot to say that Linkedin
tells all your
contacts that you have a new contact, and shows that person's link.
That was what I
meant by aggresive and intrusive. When you click on the new contact
button list, you
get 3 large faces that scroll across the screen of people that know
your connections in
the 2nd, 3rd and 4th degree or anybody you have ever emailed in your
life ( I think ), or is somehow in associated with any Linkedin Group
that you joined. Apparently, you can scroll down that for days on
end looking at potential Linkedin contacts. This is a good reason
now to put a professional photo of yourself on Linkedin.
Topic # 7
The NSS Google+ Page now has over 300 cavers, and almost 1,100 likes (
+'s ). There have been several official post per week on the site.
One of them was the announcement
for TCR. The 2 year anniversary of this site is 18 days away. All the
original caving photos that were hand-picked and carefully organized
on the page have been removed. But there are now only NSS photos such
as convention stuff, and headquarter
remodeling photos. All of the caving videos were removed. In
summary, only one thing
remains from the original roll-out of the site, the list of vendors.
I am still optimistic this
site will someday benefit cavers.
https://plus.google.com/111610247864593899054/about
Compare that to the official "page" on Facebook at:
https://www.facebook.com/NationalSpeleologicalSociety
And it is easy to see that the Google+ Page is far superior at
representing an organization
such as the NSS, or any caving group.
David Locklear
semi-retired arm-chair caver
now located just north of downtown Houston, Texas
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a caver that does not like zip-lining ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIwjlaPa_W4
The guy posting that is a caver in Russia, I think.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Article on Tom Iliffe receiving newsmaker award.
http://tamutimes.tamu.edu/2013/10/22/texas-am-galveston-cave-diver-receives-newsmaker-image-award/
Jerry.
Sent from my iPhone
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Missy:
On behalf of the larger Texas caver community, I apologize for the shabby
treatment you have received from certain posters that has ultimately led to
your unsubscribing from TexasCavers. Please be assured that many others share
your position and, regrettably, many have done as you have and dropped their
subscription. It’s quite unfortunate that a handful of thoughtless posters
have rendered our listserve nearly unusable.
Is this the price we must pay to have an unmoderated forum?
I find that I am often in the position of defending the TexasCavers list to
others who have unsubscribed. I usually maintain that it’s worth mining
through the trash postings to discover that occasional worthwhile nugget. The
common argument against that is that the rewards are so disproportionate that
it’s not worthwhile. More and more, I tend to agree.
At the recent TCR, the subject came up in a campfire discussion. Present were
six stalwart Texas cavers with an aggregate and worthwhile presence in the TSA
of about 200 years. The names are withheld but you would recognize them. Of
the six, I was the only remaining TexasCavers subscriber. The others had
resigned in disgust. If the quality of a listserve degenerates to the point
where it drives away the very people it is meant to serve, there is something
seriously wrong.
It seems that some people are so egotistical that they feel the entire
readership wants to know their opinion on nearly every subject. That would be
bad enough but their comments are often just a few words such as “Me, too” or
“Hah, hah.” Again, that would be tiresome enough but they often append that to
the entire previous thread, seldom taking time to trim off the excess and
rarely changing the subject line when the subject changes.
The one button everyone seems able to find is “Reply All.” Many times a reply
to a specific person or small group is more appropriate than to the entire
group. That means one must thoughtfully edit the “To” line before clicking the
“Send” button.
There are within the subscribers to this listserve a few who seem to have time
on their hands. They post again and again on a great variety of topics, often
with no meaningful link to caving, (sometimes with no real understanding or
expertise on the subject) and suggest that the majority of subscribers should
just “exercise the Delete key.” Does that seem a bit high-handed to you?
Eventually, the remaining subscribers will begin to ignore ALL postings from
certain sources and those posters will have effectively silenced themselves.
Some time back, another service became available for “off-topic” postings. It
soon withered and died as the readership was not sufficient to satisfy the
desire for a large audience.
Poor Missy was being bombarded with poison ivy postings. So far there have
been about 40 separate postings. She may be interested in poison ivy but was
likely growing tired of having to winnow anything worthwhile from the larger
mass of data. She asked nicely if there was a way to avoid the poison ivy
postings and received several ugly replies. For shame!
The subject of civility and suitability of postings has been discussed before.
Apparently, the message was not received.
===Carl Kunath
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While checking the reference list in an article I'm copy-editing, I
ran into this article on subterranean medicine
http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1080-6032/PIIS108060320070771X.pdf
The MD authors of the article are obviously completely ignorant about
the literature on cave rescue first-aid and the article is mostly
about injuries or illnesses on developed trails in national-park
caves, but I noticed one thing I've never heard of before. Perhaps
some of you who have taken NCRC training have? It is using "military
anti-shock trousers" as a splint for femur or pelvis fractures. They
"keep the patient dry, may help support the patient through water, and
can be easily deflated for tight extrication, then reinflated." --
Mixon
----------------------------------------
True friends stab you in the front.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's another cave rescue article free from a journal:
http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1080-6032/PIIS1080603212000956.pdf
It's "The Epidemiology of Caving Injuries in the United States" and
seems to be a good summary of data from the NSS publication American
Caving Accidents from 1980 through 2008. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
True friends stab you in the front.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That journal, Wilderness and Environmental Medicine, has
several articles about caves. On their main page
<http://www.wemjournal.org/> you can type caves in the search box and
get a list, including the two Bill posted. His links didn't work for
me directly from his post, but they did when I clicked on them in the
list of articles I got from the journal search. Other recent
articles of interest include "Medical Planning for Extended Remote
Expeditions" "Infectious Diseases Associated with Caves" and a couple
concerning harness hang syndrome (suspension trauma). All but the
most recent articles are free downloads, although a few mysteriously are not.
Mark
At 09:47 PM 10/24/2013, Mixon Bill wrote:
Here's another cave rescue article free from a journal:
http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1080-6032/PIIS1080603212000956.pdf
It's "The Epidemiology of Caving Injuries in the United States" and
seems to be a good summary of data from the NSS publication American
Caving Accidents from 1980 through 2008. -- Mixon
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi friends,
I members of my association, are going to live near at the are of Mamut
Cave , could you please send me information about the grotto near that
area.
I didn't remember if is Carolina of North...
Please
Moni
--
LCC. Monica Grissel Ponce Gonzalez
Asociacion Coahuilense de Espeleologia, A.C. (fundadora)
Associazione Geografica La Venta- Italia (socia)
Centro de Estudios Karsticos La Venta (socia)
Grupo Espeleologico Vaxakmen, A.C. (socia)
Association for Mexican Cave Studies (colaboradora)
Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
Union Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleologicas (Socia)
045-844-1478311 cel.
monicaponce1 by skype.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I figured I would give another caver a chance to catch my error, but nobody
posted anything.
The spelunkers in the video link I posted were handling a small bird, not
a bat. Actually 2 birds. It looked like they planned to keep the birds.
I presume they have a cage somewhere and they plan to sell them or
use them as pets. I see on the web, that the nest of these birds is used
in an expensive soup. So maybe they are hoping the birds will build a nest
in their house.
On the poison ivy topic,
the pharmacist told me to crush whatever antihistamine
pill I was planning to take. I decided to experiment on myself and
take a warm
wet rag and crush the pill into the rag, and wipe that on the wound. This was
a generic chlorpheniramine maleate pill. That seemed to do nothing. So
I took one to see if it worked better than Benadryl. I found
Benadryl to not help.
Here is the small rash near my wrist:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ifOFlVPAD1g/Umn9sQUO1DI/AAAAAAAAEXY/aH1t8o7GzgM/w958-h574-no/IMAG0753.jpg
( The pink stuff is the calamine )
I have similar but much smaller patches in about 5 other spots, and
singular pimple-like bubbles scattered from head to toe, except not on
my hands. I was keeping my hands
clean with the hand-santizers like Germ-X, so maybe there is something to that.
I put some Blistex ointment on this rash and that felt good for about
15 minutes. So
I used up a $ 3 tube on just one coating of all my itchy spots.
I do not seem to itch as bad when I am sleeping, as long as I don't
toss and turn. In
fact, once I lie still and coat myself with some menthol lotion, like
Goldbond, I do not
even notice the itch.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom's collection of cave history was offered to CaCa. They were strapped for
space in their library (read: broom closet) and took only what pertained to
CCNP and possibly GuMo. I have no idea where the remainder of his collection
went. Possibly his widow would know.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [SWR] Tom Meador Award
I can probably inventory the Meador collection sometime this fall. I had a
good look at the material he left with the NPS at Carlsbad some years ago.
There really wasn't a lot there in their files.
Jerry.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 24, 2013, at 7:47 PM, "Doug \"Diego\" Rhodes" <d...@onlymyemail.com>
wrote:
I just took a look at the site mentioned
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/utcah/02558/cah-02558.html and there are
various boxes of "unprocessed material". Tom had an really extensive
collection of Carlsbad Caverns stuff along with many other books and
whatever memorabilia he could come up with. It would be a great service if
someone living in the area of the collection could volunteer to inventory
the stuff and the offer would hopefully be accepted.
Tom was a great friend who , along with Rich Breisch,, first introduced me
to the area where I now reside, the Copper Canyon of Chihuahua, Mexico.
I'll never forget the day a group of drunks with logging trucks blocked us
in on the old, unpaved road to Creel. Tom had a moderate Spanish ability
which suddenly disappeared leaving me to fend for the group. Meanwhile Tom
got behind the wheel of his old Scout so we could make a getaway if the
blockade was lifted. We got out but a logging truck started pushing the
scout and would not let me catch up to Tom. The rest of the story is best
told around a campfire but the darn drunks never did give me a beer!
doug
_______________________________________________
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
_______________________________________________
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Three endangered species from caves in Comal and Hays
Counties have been granted protected
habitat:
<http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2013/texas-invertebrates-10-22.2013.html>.
Mark
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The AMCS has added to its catalog the new book "A Quest for the
Secrets of Xibalba," an illustrated summary of the work of Czech cave
divers in Quintana Roo. $30 plus shipping charge. Details are at http://www.amcs-pubs.org/other/Xibalba.html
. General ordering information is at http://www.amcs-pubs.org/finance/order.html
.
An editing error resulted in an erroneous chemical formula on page 45
of NSS bulletin 24, "Sulfidic Karst Springs and Speleogenesis in the
Sierra de Chiapas." A PDF of the corrected page is at http://www.amcs-pubs.org/bul/B24erratum.pdf
. -- Mixon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know over the years I have seen a lot of people angered over some of the
topics that pop up on occasion here on the mailing list. Not saying it’s
right or wrong but seeing twenty or thirty replies to a topic that started
as simply as “poison ivy” could get on peoples nerves. If I may bring up
an alternative to what many consider an antiquated method of communication;
the official NSS message board.
I understand there are reasons a lot of individuals choose to distance
themselves from the NSS and we have to respect their decision though we
have available a resource which would help curb if not eliminate many of
the reasons that people get angry at the remailer. Available on the NSS
forum are sub forums which we could as an organization have a specific
forum. We would no longer have thirty emails pertaining to just poison ivy
or the latest flashlight found at home depot. You could opt out of being
notified of message replies and or new messages entirely if you so choose
to do so. I have seen through facebook (I know the dreaded facebook
mention) many grottos here in Texas already communicate via groups there…
very similar to how it could be set up on the NSS forums. And just like
many groups on facebook, certain areas could be closed off from the general
public, because we all know the Texas remailer is exclusive in its
membership. I only offer this alternative idea as I hate to see so many of
our community leaving the remailer. You can see some of the sub forums at
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewforum.php?f=39. And please I only
mentioned facebook four times including this sentence so at max only four
lashings.
Herman Miller
NSS 55273RE
Permian Basin Speleological Society
her...@cavechat.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The results for the 2013 TCR Vertical Contest(for those who missed it):
30m Rope Walker:
Women's 1st- Jacque Cresswell 1:10
Men's 1st- Travis Sterne :49
30m Frog:
Women's:
1st- Susan Souby 1:59
2nd- Carrie Hutchins 2:11
3rd- Anna Klis 2:18
Men's:
1st- David Ochel 1:30
2nd- Tom Rogers 1:39
3rd- Stephen Bryant 1:41
We had a great turn out of 39 participants. Everyone pushed themselves to be
awesome and should all be proud!
Special Thanks to Susan Souby, for her organization and funding management in
acquiring the lovely prizes we had to offer this year.
Thanks to everyone who volunteered their time to help this be a success, hope
everyone had a great time!
--- End Message ---
