date:20170222

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Olly Betts via Therion

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:08:09AM +0100, Stacho Mudrak via Therion wrote:
> Hi, I agree with Bruce, that it is really a very useful feature. I have
> just pushed it on GitHub (see commit 2ebc7ed).
> 
> The only problem is, that survex calculates error which "is the ratio of
> the observed misclosure to the theoretical one". I have implemented more
> simple export (it was much easier), currently therion .3d export contains
> error equal to 2 * relative error of a loop. (because of 0-12 aven fixed
> error scale). It should be possible to extract survex relative error from
> either thTMPDIR/data.err or data.3d file, but it will take some time.

I'd definitely use the .3d file (no rounding, and a file format that's
intended for machine parsing).

> But when I compared 3D files with relative loop error and error with survex
> ratio, I received two quite different pictures. Are these two measures not
> comparable? Is a relative error of a loop useless number?

tl;dr: No and yes!

By "relative error of a loop" I'm assuming you mean "misclosure / length
of traverse * 100%".  If so that's not really a useful measure, though
at least historically it's been a fairly popular one, I suspect because
it's an obvious one to calculate.

The problem with it is that what's a "good" value depends on the length
of the traverse.  For random errors, the squares of the errors add, so a
traverse which is 100 times as long would be expected to only have 10
times the error, which means the relative error would be expected to be
10/100 = 1/10 as much.

As well as not providing a reliable measure of the random error, a
blunder in a long traverse will tend to be smoothed out in the relative
error, as it gets divided by the length of the traverse.

Observed error divided by theoretical error should be agnostic to length
of traverse.  It's simply telling you which traverses don't seem to be
surveyed to the accuracy that was claimed.

> Has anybody tried to go to a cave and resurvey "red shots", whether
> they are really so bad?

I've done the armchair equivalent and used Aven's error colouring to
successfully find mis-ties, reversed legs, etc.

Cheers,
Olly
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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Stacho Mudrak via Therion

Hi, I agree with Bruce, that it is really a very useful feature. I have
just pushed it on GitHub (see commit 2ebc7ed).

The only problem is, that survex calculates error which "is the ratio of
the observed misclosure to the theoretical one". I have implemented more
simple export (it was much easier), currently therion .3d export contains
error equal to 2 * relative error of a loop. (because of 0-12 aven fixed
error scale). It should be possible to extract survex relative error from
either thTMPDIR/data.err or data.3d file, but it will take some time.

But when I compared 3D files with relative loop error and error with survex
ratio, I received two quite different pictures. Are these two measures not
comparable? Is a relative error of a loop useless number? Has anybody tried
to go to a cave and resurvey "red shots", whether they are really so bad?

S.

On 22 February 2017 at 23:20, Olly Betts via Therion 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 09:34:03PM +, Footleg via Therion wrote:
> > Therion strips most of the data apart from staions and legs out of 3D
> files
> > it generates. Colour by error and by date are not possible because that
> > information is not in the 3D files generated from a Therion project.
> > Entrances are lost too. One of the reasons I plan to add Therion to
> Survex
> > conversion into my cave converter program (when time permits).
>
> Therion-generated .3d files now[*] contain date and coordinate system
> information, thanks to a patch from Vlad:
>
> https://github.com/therion/therion/commit/43e6630e3109196d2c
> 251f05e52c2663496419d9
>
> [*] This isn't in a released version of therion yet, but I'm guessing
> there's likely to be a new release soon as it's been years since 5.3.16
> and a lot of useful stuff has been merged recently.
>
> Cheers,
> Olly
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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Olly Betts via Therion

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 09:34:03PM +, Footleg via Therion wrote:
> Therion strips most of the data apart from staions and legs out of 3D files
> it generates. Colour by error and by date are not possible because that
> information is not in the 3D files generated from a Therion project.
> Entrances are lost too. One of the reasons I plan to add Therion to Survex
> conversion into my cave converter program (when time permits).

Therion-generated .3d files now[*] contain date and coordinate system
information, thanks to a patch from Vlad:

https://github.com/therion/therion/commit/43e6630e3109196d2c251f05e52c2663496419d9

[*] This isn't in a released version of therion yet, but I'm guessing
there's likely to be a new release soon as it's been years since 5.3.16
and a lot of useful stuff has been merged recently.

Cheers,
Olly
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[Therion] Colors and thickness for new symbols

2017-02-22 Thread thomasschilter--- via Therion

Dear Therion-Community
 
I try to change some symbols on my layout. This works with most symbols. With 
two symbols I can not go any further.
 
1. With the symbol "Absatz Lehm" I can not transfer the color to the whole 
symbol. The symbol is similar to the line floorstep (Fig .: Legend_Linecolor). 
The base line takes the color brown, with the right-angled lines I have no idea 
that works:
code metapost
 def l_u_absatz_lehm (expr P) = 
  T:=identity;
  cas := 0;
  dlzka := arclength P;
  mojkrok:=adjust_step(dlzka, .5u); % Schraffurabstand eingeben
  pickup PenD;
  draw p withcolor (0.75,0.2,0.12);  % not works!!!
  forever:
   t := arctime cas of P;
   mark_ (P,t,0.9u);
   cas := cas + mojkrok;
  exitif cas > dlzka + (mojkrok /3); % for rounding errors
  endfor;
  pickup PenC;  
  thdraw P withcolor (0.75,0.2,0.12); % works
 enddef;
 
initsymbol("l_u_absatz_lehm")
 
def l_u_absatz_lehm_legend =
 l_u_absatz_lehm(((-.3,0.5) .. (.3,.3) .. (.7,.7) .. (1.3,.5)) inscale)
 enddef;
endcode
 
text de "line u:absatz_lehm" "Absatz Lehm"
 
 
2. The second symbol “phreatische Fliessrichtung” is only one line. However, I 
would like to place the symbol with the outline in the legend box. Compare with 
the figure Legend_Color_Pen. The outside lines should be gray and slightly 
thicker than the line in the middle.
 
code metapost
 def l_u_phreatisch (expr P) = 
  T:=identity;
  pickup PenC;
  thdraw P;
enddef;
 
 initsymbol("l_u_phreatisch")
 
 def l_u_phreatisch_legend =
  l_u_phreatisch(((.25,.5){dir 300} .. (.65,.5)) inscale);
  l_u_phreatisch(((.4,1.0) .. (.2,.5){dir 270} .. (.1,0.0)) inscale) % must be 
grey (0.86, 0.86, 0.86) and PenA
  l_u_phreatisch(((.8,1.0) .. (.7,.5){dir 270} .. (.6,0.0)) inscale) % must be 
grey (0.86, 0.86, 0.86) and PenA
 enddef;
endcode
 
text de "line u:phreatisch" "phreatische Fliessrichtung"
Does anyone know a solution?
Thank you and best regards
Thomas___
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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Benedikt Hallinger via Therion


I am able to export fixed stations and entrances with therion 5.3.15.
They are nicely visible once the button is activated in the aven viewer.


Am 2017-02-22 23:34, schrieb Footleg via Therion:
Therion strips most of the data apart from staions and legs out of 3D 
files it generates. Colour by error and by date are not possible because 
that information is not in the 3D files generated from a Therion project. 
Entrances are lost too. One of the reasons I plan to add Therion to Survex 
conversion into my cave converter program (when time permits).


Footleg

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:46 PM Bruce Mutton via Therion 
 wrote:


I really need it!  It seems the interface is and data there, just need 
the two to be introduced to each other.


Therion debug does not show the loop errors as far as I can tell, only 
the single largest error, and scrap distortions.


Therion.log lists all the errors, but what I need is this information in 
graphical form.


 

Bruce

 

FROM: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk [2]] ON BEHALF OF Martin 
Sluka via Therion

SENT: Wednesday, 22 February 2017 9:45 PM
TO: List for Therion users 
CC: Martin Sluka 
SUBJECT: Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

 

 


22. 2. 2017 v 9:05, Bruce Mutton via Therion :

 

Is ‘colour by loop error’ something that could readily be added to the 
Therion export?


 


 

Do you really need it? There is „debug on“ option in thconfig, which will 
produce very clear visualization of the biggest error in exported map.


 

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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Bruce Mutton via Therion

I really need it!  It seems the interface is and data there, just need the two 
to be introduced to each other.

Therion debug does not show the loop errors as far as I can tell, only the 
single largest error, and scrap distortions.

Therion.log lists all the errors, but what I need is this information in 
graphical form.

 

Bruce

 

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Martin Sluka via 
Therion
Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2017 9:45 PM
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

 

 

22. 2. 2017 v 9:05, Bruce Mutton via Therion  >:

 

Is ‘colour by loop error’ something that could readily be added to the Therion 
export?

 

 

Do you really need it? There is „debug on“ option in thconfig, which will 
produce very clear visualization of the biggest error in exported map.

 

m.s.

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Re: [Therion] Clino question

2017-02-22 Thread Torsten Schnitter via Therion

Hello

I found the reason for the problem.

When I compiled just the part of the cave around this shot everything is 
working as expected.
(Thanks for pointing me in this direction of troubleshooting)

When I compiled all the survey data of the cave I got this clino problem.
I figured out when not closing a specific loop around this shot this error is 
not present any more.
And then I figured out that there is any problem with the survey data 
concerning water depth and/or clino around this area.

When just compiling the plan view this error is not obvious or let's say this 
errors seems to be very little.
Just close the loop and you are done.
But when compiling the elevation view someone can see this measuring error as 
there is a gap of several meters in height.

When closing this loop then Therion is calculating the average error and is 
correcting all data inbetween this loop.
Also clino data and the result is as described in my initial problem.

(I hope you can understand what I'm talking about. ;-) )

Thanks,
Torsten


> Stacho Mudrak via Therion  hat am 21. Februar 2017 um 
> 15:26 geschrieben:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I am sorry, but when I have tried, I was not able to reproduce your 
> problem. Could you please post some small sample, where this behavior occurs?
> 
> Thanks, S.
> 
> On 15 February 2017 at 11:09, Torsten Schnitter via Therion 
>  wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > I get a strange problem with survey data and clino numbers.
> > I  can't figure out the error and therefore need any help or advice.
> > 
> > I have to stations with this data:
> >   survey line_25
> > centreline -id "line_25"
> >   date 2014.09.23
> >   cs lat-long
> >   walls on
> >   units compass degree
> >   data normal from   to left right up   down tape compass 
> > backcompass clino backclino
> >   
> >   IMO113 IMO114  0.0  0.0   0.0  0.0 58.7 132 
> > 309   0.5  -2.0
> >   
> > endcentreline
> >   endsurvey
> > 
> > The output is shown in attached picture "Clino-Problem.jpg" which 
> > is elevation view of course.
> > 
> > The problem is that this survey shot (grey line) is going much to 
> > high on the right side. The difference in height from left point to right 
> > point should be less than 1m (squares in background of image are 1m).
> > I checked this with: sin(1.25°) x 58,7m = 1,28m. So the difference 
> > in height should be 1,28m.
> > (The calculated average of clino should be 1,25°, shouldn't it!?)
> > But the picture shows a difference of close to 5m related to the 
> > squares.
> > 
> > To show this strange problem more easy I changed the clino and 
> > backclino numbers to 0 and expected a horizontal shot:
> >   survey line_25
> > centreline -id "line_25"
> >   date 2014.09.23
> >   cs lat-long
> >   walls on
> >   units compass degree
> >   data normal from   to left right up   down tape compass 
> > backcompass clino backclino
> >   
> >   IMO113 IMO114  0.0  0.0   0.0  0.0 58.7 132 
> > 309   0.0  0.0
> >   
> > endcentreline
> >   endsurvey
> > 
> > The output is shown in attached picture "Clino-Zero.jpg" and as you 
> > can see the shot is not horizontal. The difference in height is around 4m. 
> > But: sin(0°) x 58,7m = 0m. So the difference in height should be zero.
> > 
> > So what I'm missing or doing wrong?
> > 
> > Thanks for you help,
> > Torsten
> > 
> > 
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> > https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
> > 
> > 
> > > 
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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

2017-02-22 Thread Martin Sluka via Therion


> 22. 2. 2017 v 9:05, Bruce Mutton via Therion :
> 
> Is ‘colour by loop error’ something that could readily be added to the 
> Therion export?
> 

Do you really need it? There is „debug on“ option in thconfig, which will 
produce very clear visualization of the biggest error in exported map.

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Re: [Therion] Translation doubt: what's a "clay-tree" point?

2017-02-22 Thread Martin Sluka via Therion

There is one unique source of speleological and karsological terms - vocabulary 
of Prof. Vladimír Panoš.

Karsologická a speleologická terminologie: výkladový slovník s ekvivalenty ve 
slovenštině a jednacích jazycích Mezinárodní speleologické unie (UNESCO) 
(angličtina, francouzština, italština, němčina, ruština, španělština)
Vladimír Panoš, 2001

Karsological and speleological terminology: explanatory dictionary with 
equivalents in Slovak and official languages of UIS (English, French, Italian, 
German, Russian, Spanish). More than 3000 terms there.

Eyplanations are only in Czech.

You may find it in libraries, but as I may say you may find the PDF version 
too. 

It is very big pity that UIS never used this source as base for on-line 
speleological vocabulary, because the digital sources still exists in Slovakia.

Martin Sluka


> 22. 2. 2017 v 8:46, Bruce Mutton via Therion :
> 
> Not sure we have a word in NZ either - mud-mites or mud formation would
> likely be the naturally adopted term?  Since using Therion I have from time
> to time used the word clay-tree for lack of anything better.
> Bruce
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Wookey via
> Therion
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2017 6:46 PM
> To: therion@speleo.sk
> Cc: Wookey 
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Translation doubt: what's a "clay-tree" point?
> 
> On 2017-02-21 12:16 -0300, Rodrigo Severo via Therion wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> I'm making a small revision on the translations I did yesterday. I'm 
>> not entirely satisfied with some of them.
>> 
>> What's a "clay-tree" point? I couldn't find out even searching Google.
> 
> I've never heard of this term before either. I recognise the formations from
> the pics, but I have no idea what we call them in English. I'd be surprised
> if it really is 'clay-tree'.
> 
> Wookey
> --
> Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/
> 
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Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

[Therion] Colors and thickness for new symbols

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

Re: [Therion] Clino question

Re: [Therion] Aven colour by loop error

Re: [Therion] Translation doubt: what's a "clay-tree" point?

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