[Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs
Hi Marco I am not sure I understand, let me test my thinking, for everyone to pick apart :) I think the extend options provide control of the non-splay survey legs. In general that control amounts to left, right, vertical, not at all, or not visible. The splay legs should just ‘wobble around’ as a second order effect, in response to the extend parameters applied to the non-splay legs. So the only sensible behaviour for splays is ‘extend auto’, and my observation is that this is already coded into PocketTopo and Therion, and so there is no reason to require the user to invoke ‘extend auto’ manually. As noted in previous threads, Therion and PocketTopo do manage to orient splay legs differently. Quite often I have to mentally reorient splays when drawing in Therion Drawing Editor. Neither application seems to do it perfectly, but then because the shape of the extended centreline network is as much an arbitrary artistic choice on the part of the user, as it is based on hard numeric data, there is perhaps no ‘right approach’ for the software to take. I suspect that I have observed that TopParser can affect the orientation of splays as well, but I am not sure of that. I think the right approach is to aim for Therion (and PocketTopo, TopoDroid) to orient splays automatically, based on the extend directions of the incoming and outgoing non-splay legs. If the applications were to allow direct user control of splay extend direction, then the statements should not be able to be confused with existing statements that control the non-splay legs (ie adopt extend splay left, extend splay right, extend splay vertical, extend splay auto). Perhaps this topic is something the authors should collaborate on to achieve a consistent behaviour? What do you think? Bruce From: Therion On Behalf Of Marco Corvi via Therion Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 11:29 PM To: therion@speleo.sk Cc: Marco Corvi Subject: Re: [Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs I have commented all the splays "extend ignore", and Therion is doing now a good job, ignoring the appropriate leg (extend ignore 83 92). All the splays "extend ignore" was confusing the Therion compiler. This data is an export from Topodroid, that incorporates the "extend ignore" command before the splays shots. I will comment to Marco Corvi on the problem. @ Evaristo & Bruce: what about a command "extend auto", which means let therion decide how to extend the splay shot ? for the moment therion parser could behave as if the command weren't there. marco ___ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Re: [Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs
I have commented all the splays "extend ignore", and Therion is doing now a good job, ignoring the appropriate leg (extend ignore 83 92). All the splays "extend ignore" was confusing the Therion compiler. This data is an export from Topodroid, that incorporates the "extend ignore" command before the splays shots. I will comment to Marco Corvi on the problem. @ Evaristo & Bruce: what about a command "extend auto", which means let therion decide how to extend the splay shot ? for the moment therion parser could behave as if the command weren't there. marco ___ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Re: [Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs
Thanks Bruce. I have commented all the splays "extend ignore", and Therion is doing now a good job, ignoring the appropriate leg (extend ignore 83 92). All the splays "extend ignore" was confusing the Therion compiler. This data is an export from Topodroid, that incorporates the "extend ignore" command before the splays shots. I will comment to Marco Corvi on the problem. Bruce, I had already read your excellent wiki about Extended Elevation and the Marco Corvi’s altervista web pages on extended elevations in relation to loops <http://marcocorvi.altervista.org/caving/tbe/m_04/m_044.htm>, but I had not managed to solve the problem. Best regards, Evaristo. El 06/06/2018 a las 21:53, Bruce Mutton via Therion escribió: Evaristo An interesting situation. I have not tried to compile your data, but notice you have extend ignore prior to each set of splays. I don’t think extend ignore has any useful function with respect to splays (but I am not sure). I suspect what you have done is effectively follow ‘extend ignore’ with ‘extend left’ without any non-splay legs in between. Possibly a confusing situation for Therion. Have a look at my understanding here <https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/extend#summary_of_all_extend_options_for_survey_centrelines> (although it does not yet consider splays at all, or inverse (backsight) legs properly). What happens if you remove all the extend ignores prior to the splay legs? Bruce *From:*Therion *On Behalf Of *Evaristo Quiroga via Therion *Sent:* Thursday, 7 June 2018 5:40 AM *To:* therion@speleo.sk *Cc:* Evaristo Quiroga *Subject:* [Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs Hi, I usually do my surveys doing inverse measures. I go ahead by positioning the points, and doing the measurements with the distoX2 looking back (inverse) and finally do the splay measurements at that destination point. My assistant is in origin point, and don't have survey experience, is only putting the target in the anterior point . With this I get all the data (leg and from and to splays) to be able to draw the sketches. You can look a example the data results: extend left 82 81 10.47 147.7 1.4 extend ignore 82 . 0.53 230.7 1.2 82 . 1.85 66.3 -6.5 82 . 1.19 45.5 60.1 82 . 0.65 300.5 -88.8 82 . 2.76 105.7 -5.8 82 . 4.54 127.2 -0.9 82 . 5.86 132.4 -2.1 82 . 1.52 182.2 -8.3 82 . 4.45 156.5 -3.0 82 . 2.62 20.4 -9.8 82 . 2.39 311.0 -6.3 82 . 3.95 324.1 -6.9 extend left 83 82 7.95 146.4 1.4 extend ignore 83 . 0.35 235.9 1.0 83 . 1.87 38.5 -6.1 83 . 0.94 5.9 76.3 83 . 1.06 40.4 -80.9 83 . 4.49 117.2 -5.0 83 . 2.61 85.7 16.9 83 . 2.87 107.9 -6.0 83 . 2.98 154.2 -11.3 83 . 3.94 148.4 -3.6 83 . 5.92 127.1 -5.7 83 . 3.67 327.8 -5.8 83 . 4.40 300.2 -12.5 83 . 2.65 334.7 -20.5 83 . 5.62 132.6 3.5 extend left 84 83 8.40 132.5 3.5 extend ignore 84 . 1.39 215.1 23.4 84 . 2.51 101.7 -0.8 84 . 1.89 195.1 67.5 84 . 2.00 100.7 -28.2 84 . 3.16 118.1 -2.7 84 . 4.68 149.7 1.0 84 . 5.15 62.5 2.7 84 . 2.12 33.9 -1.3 83 . 4.99 250.9 -7.6 extend left 85 84 5.03 234.4 -6.3 extend ignore 85 . 2.56 261.5 -0.7 85 . 1.34 276.4 31.0 85 . 1.05 282.5 -62.6 85 . 4.43 304.8 -1.1 85 . 5.80 314.2 -1.4 85 . 1.33 181.0 0.5 extend left 86 85 6.33 149.5 -2.0 extend ignore 86 . 1.19 252.8 -18.6 86 . 2.85 85.3 3.7 86 . 0.92 225.3 -84.7 86 . 2.23 136.3 10.5 86 . 3.96 135.4 -5.4 86 . 3.83 143.8 -8.1 86 . 2.25 203.4 -10.9 86 . 3.50 186.7 -8.6 extend left 87 86 3.05 187.0 -8.7 extend ignore 87 . 2.59 223.7 -18.5 87 . 1.09 32.0 -1.2 87 . 1.67 183.2 59.1 87 . 0.58 315.6 -83.5 extend right 88 87 7.46 330.8 -3.4 extend ignore 88 . 0.77 66.7 4.2 88 . 0.47 257.5 -7.8 88 . 2.56 326.1 74.5 88 . 0.41 247.0 -80.9 88 . 1.85 127.1 15.2 88 . 0.96 104.7 4.6 88 . 0.85 207.2 1.2 88 . 4.20 343.3 -16.6 extend right 89 88 2.20 349.0 -20.5 extend ignore 89 . 0.95 43.1 -5.6 89 . 0.72 62.1 82.7 89 . 0.39 99.4 -77.6 89 . 0.89 324.9 -26.4 89 . 1.43 359.5 -23.5 89 . 1.08 72.7 -9.7 89 . 1.59 105.4 -3.8 89 . 2.56 125.6 -5.7 extend right 90 89 1.39 300.3 -13.8 extend ignore 90 . 0.46 62.7 -3.4 90 . 0.50 245.3 1.2 90 . 0.48 246.5 70.4 90 . 0.70 300.2 -82.3
[Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs
Evaristo An interesting situation. I have not tried to compile your data, but notice you have extend ignore prior to each set of splays. I don’t think extend ignore has any useful function with respect to splays (but I am not sure). I suspect what you have done is effectively follow ‘extend ignore’ with ‘extend left’ without any non-splay legs in between. Possibly a confusing situation for Therion. Have a look at my understanding here <https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/extend#summary_of_all_extend_options_for_survey_centrelines> (although it does not yet consider splays at all, or inverse (backsight) legs properly). What happens if you remove all the extend ignores prior to the splay legs? Bruce From: Therion On Behalf Of Evaristo Quiroga via Therion Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 5:40 AM To: therion@speleo.sk Cc: Evaristo Quiroga Subject: [Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs Hi, I usually do my surveys doing inverse measures. I go ahead by positioning the points, and doing the measurements with the distoX2 looking back (inverse) and finally do the splay measurements at that destination point. My assistant is in origin point, and don't have survey experience, is only putting the target in the anterior point . With this I get all the data (leg and from and to splays) to be able to draw the sketches. You can look a example the data results: extend left 82 81 10.47 147.7 1.4 extend ignore 82 . 0.53 230.7 1.2 82 . 1.85 66.3 -6.5 82 . 1.19 45.5 60.1 82 . 0.65 300.5 -88.8 82 . 2.76 105.7 -5.8 82 . 4.54 127.2 -0.9 82 . 5.86 132.4 -2.1 82 . 1.52 182.2 -8.3 82 . 4.45 156.5 -3.0 82 . 2.62 20.4 -9.8 82 . 2.39 311.0 -6.3 82 . 3.95 324.1 -6.9 extend left 83 82 7.95 146.4 1.4 extend ignore 83 . 0.35 235.9 1.0 83 . 1.87 38.5 -6.1 83 . 0.94 5.9 76.3 83 . 1.06 40.4 -80.9 83 . 4.49 117.2 -5.0 83 . 2.61 85.7 16.9 83 . 2.87 107.9 -6.0 83 . 2.98 154.2 -11.3 83 . 3.94 148.4 -3.6 83 . 5.92 127.1 -5.7 83 . 3.67 327.8 -5.8 83 . 4.40 300.2 -12.5 83 . 2.65 334.7 -20.5 83 . 5.62 132.6 3.5 extend left 84 83 8.40 132.5 3.5 extend ignore 84 . 1.39 215.1 23.4 84 . 2.51 101.7 -0.8 84 . 1.89 195.1 67.5 84 . 2.00 100.7 -28.2 84 . 3.16 118.1 -2.7 84 . 4.68 149.7 1.0 84 . 5.15 62.5 2.7 84 . 2.12 33.9 -1.3 83 . 4.99 250.9 -7.6 extend left 85 84 5.03 234.4 -6.3 extend ignore 85 . 2.56 261.5 -0.7 85 . 1.34 276.4 31.0 85 . 1.05 282.5 -62.6 85 . 4.43 304.8 -1.1 85 . 5.80 314.2 -1.4 85 . 1.33 181.0 0.5 extend left 86 85 6.33 149.5 -2.0 extend ignore 86 . 1.19 252.8 -18.6 86 . 2.85 85.3 3.7 86 . 0.92 225.3 -84.7 86 . 2.23 136.3 10.5 86 . 3.96 135.4 -5.4 86 . 3.83 143.8 -8.1 86 . 2.25 203.4 -10.9 86 . 3.50 186.7 -8.6 extend left 87 86 3.05 187.0 -8.7 extend ignore 87 . 2.59 223.7 -18.5 87 . 1.09 32.0 -1.2 87 . 1.67 183.2 59.1 87 . 0.58 315.6 -83.5 extend right 88 87 7.46 330.8 -3.4 extend ignore 88 . 0.77 66.7 4.2 88 . 0.47 257.5 -7.8 88 . 2.56 326.1 74.5 88 . 0.41 247.0 -80.9 88 . 1.85 127.1 15.2 88 . 0.96 104.7 4.6 88 . 0.85 207.2 1.2 88 . 4.20 343.3 -16.6 extend right 89 88 2.20 349.0 -20.5 extend ignore 89 . 0.95 43.1 -5.6 89 . 0.72 62.1 82.7 89 . 0.39 99.4 -77.6 89 . 0.89 324.9 -26.4 89 . 1.43 359.5 -23.5 89 . 1.08 72.7 -9.7 89 . 1.59 105.4 -3.8 89 . 2.56 125.6 -5.7 extend right 90 89 1.39 300.3 -13.8 extend ignore 90 . 0.46 62.7 -3.4 90 . 0.50 245.3 1.2 90 . 0.48 246.5 70.4 90 . 0.70 300.2 -82.3 90 . 1.74 184.4 -12.0 90 . 3.09 169.6 -9.1 90 . 3.69 166.8 -8.2 90 . 2.02 152.3 -17.2 90 . 1.40 132.2 -19.0 extend right 91 90 5.71 340.7 6.0 extend ignore 91 . 0.96 37.0 2.2 91 . 1.04 40.9 58.3 91 . 0.29 34.5 -56.7 91 . 1.48 338.9 -0.1 91 . 0.99 331.4 2.8 91 . 1.07 3.2 3.6 91 . 3.51 345.8 0.1 extend right 92 91 2.04 305.9 4.0 extend ignore 92 . 1.47 305.9 -11.0 92 . 1.06 301.4 45.1 92 . 0.43 339.3 -76.8 92 . 1.17 348.7 1.3 92 . 0.56 16.6 -9.2 92 . 0.57 270.9 -8.5 92 . 1.99 270.1 -7.4 92 . 1.56 230.3 -14.0 extend right 83 92 4.24 71.7 18.0 extend ignore 83 92 extend left 93 87 3.12 123.4 7.5 extend ignore 93 . 1.79 225.3 -3.2 93 . 1.70 49.9 -3.0 93 . 1.18 100.0 78.0 93 . 3.21 169.9 -2.6 93 . 2.09 88.5 -2.4 93 . 2.36 14.0 -2.1 93 . 3.78 347.3 1.9 93 . 3.62 300.1 -2.1 93 . 2.32 278.7 -3.8 In this data I have a loop. The main passage is: 82-83-84-85-86-87-93. And the secondary passage is: 87-88-89-90-91-92-83. When I compile the data and produce a XVI file, Therion is making the secondary passage the
[Therion] Conflict between "extend ignore" command and inverse legs
Hi, I usually do my surveys doing inverse measures. I go ahead by positioning the points, and doing the measurements with the distoX2 looking back (inverse) and finally do the splay measurements at that destination point. My assistant is in origin point, and don't have survey experience, is only putting the target in the anterior point . With this I get all the data (leg and from and to splays) to be able to draw the sketches. You can look a example the data results: extend left 82 81 10.47 147.7 1.4 extend ignore 82 . 0.53 230.7 1.2 82 . 1.85 66.3 -6.5 82 . 1.19 45.5 60.1 82 . 0.65 300.5 -88.8 82 . 2.76 105.7 -5.8 82 . 4.54 127.2 -0.9 82 . 5.86 132.4 -2.1 82 . 1.52 182.2 -8.3 82 . 4.45 156.5 -3.0 82 . 2.62 20.4 -9.8 82 . 2.39 311.0 -6.3 82 . 3.95 324.1 -6.9 extend left 83 82 7.95 146.4 1.4 extend ignore 83 . 0.35 235.9 1.0 83 . 1.87 38.5 -6.1 83 . 0.94 5.9 76.3 83 . 1.06 40.4 -80.9 83 . 4.49 117.2 -5.0 83 . 2.61 85.7 16.9 83 . 2.87 107.9 -6.0 83 . 2.98 154.2 -11.3 83 . 3.94 148.4 -3.6 83 . 5.92 127.1 -5.7 83 . 3.67 327.8 -5.8 83 . 4.40 300.2 -12.5 83 . 2.65 334.7 -20.5 83 . 5.62 132.6 3.5 extend left 84 83 8.40 132.5 3.5 extend ignore 84 . 1.39 215.1 23.4 84 . 2.51 101.7 -0.8 84 . 1.89 195.1 67.5 84 . 2.00 100.7 -28.2 84 . 3.16 118.1 -2.7 84 . 4.68 149.7 1.0 84 . 5.15 62.5 2.7 84 . 2.12 33.9 -1.3 83 . 4.99 250.9 -7.6 extend left 85 84 5.03 234.4 -6.3 extend ignore 85 . 2.56 261.5 -0.7 85 . 1.34 276.4 31.0 85 . 1.05 282.5 -62.6 85 . 4.43 304.8 -1.1 85 . 5.80 314.2 -1.4 85 . 1.33 181.0 0.5 extend left 86 85 6.33 149.5 -2.0 extend ignore 86 . 1.19 252.8 -18.6 86 . 2.85 85.3 3.7 86 . 0.92 225.3 -84.7 86 . 2.23 136.3 10.5 86 . 3.96 135.4 -5.4 86 . 3.83 143.8 -8.1 86 . 2.25 203.4 -10.9 86 . 3.50 186.7 -8.6 extend left 87 86 3.05 187.0 -8.7 extend ignore 87 . 2.59 223.7 -18.5 87 . 1.09 32.0 -1.2 87 . 1.67 183.2 59.1 87 . 0.58 315.6 -83.5 extend right 88 87 7.46 330.8 -3.4 extend ignore 88 . 0.77 66.7 4.2 88 . 0.47 257.5 -7.8 88 . 2.56 326.1 74.5 88 . 0.41 247.0 -80.9 88 . 1.85 127.1 15.2 88 . 0.96 104.7 4.6 88 . 0.85 207.2 1.2 88 . 4.20 343.3 -16.6 extend right 89 88 2.20 349.0 -20.5 extend ignore 89 . 0.95 43.1 -5.6 89 . 0.72 62.1 82.7 89 . 0.39 99.4 -77.6 89 . 0.89 324.9 -26.4 89 . 1.43 359.5 -23.5 89 . 1.08 72.7 -9.7 89 . 1.59 105.4 -3.8 89 . 2.56 125.6 -5.7 extend right 90 89 1.39 300.3 -13.8 extend ignore 90 . 0.46 62.7 -3.4 90 . 0.50 245.3 1.2 90 . 0.48 246.5 70.4 90 . 0.70 300.2 -82.3 90 . 1.74 184.4 -12.0 90 . 3.09 169.6 -9.1 90 . 3.69 166.8 -8.2 90 . 2.02 152.3 -17.2 90 . 1.40 132.2 -19.0 extend right 91 90 5.71 340.7 6.0 extend ignore 91 . 0.96 37.0 2.2 91 . 1.04 40.9 58.3 91 . 0.29 34.5 -56.7 91 . 1.48 338.9 -0.1 91 . 0.99 331.4 2.8 91 . 1.07 3.2 3.6 91 . 3.51 345.8 0.1 extend right 92 91 2.04 305.9 4.0 extend ignore 92 . 1.47 305.9 -11.0 92 . 1.06 301.4 45.1 92 . 0.43 339.3 -76.8 92 . 1.17 348.7 1.3 92 . 0.56 16.6 -9.2 92 . 0.57 270.9 -8.5 92 . 1.99 270.1 -7.4 92 . 1.56 230.3 -14.0 extend right 83 92 4.24 71.7 18.0 extend ignore 83 92 extend left 93 87 3.12 123.4 7.5 extend ignore 93 . 1.79 225.3 -3.2 93 . 1.70 49.9 -3.0 93 . 1.18 100.0 78.0 93 . 3.21 169.9 -2.6 93 . 2.09 88.5 -2.4 93 . 2.36 14.0 -2.1 93 . 3.78 347.3 1.9 93 . 3.62 300.1 -2.1 93 . 2.32 278.7 -3.8 In this data I have a loop. The main passage is: 82-83-84-85-86-87-93. And the secondary passage is: 87-88-89-90-91-92-83. When I compile the data and produce a XVI file, Therion is making the secondary passage the main centerline, breaking the main passage leg "87 93". I have tried to break the secondary passage with "extend ignore" commands and is unsuccessful. I also tried to rename the connection station and make "equate" sentence, and also is unsuccessful. I have also interchanged the from and to station order. I thinks is a problem with the inverse legs data and the "extend ignore" command. To avoid the problem I rename the leg "83 92" to "83B 92" breaking the loop at the secondary passage. To export the plan I put and "equate 83 83B", and to export the extended profile I comment this sentence. It works but it is a bit cumbersome. Someone has had similar problems with the "extend ignore" commands and has found some solution for its correct use? Best regards, Evaristo ___ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
