Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Mat]

Danielo, thanks! Very interesting to know!

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El sábado, 13 de mayo de 2017, 12:08:43 (UTC+2), Mat escribió:
>
>
> If you delete the core plugin from an empty TW, is there anything left? If 
> yes, what? Some empty shell perhaps? (ref to the previous analogies - even 
> if you remove the engine or the heart, there's still something left of the 
> car/body)
>

Yes, an html file containing with some sections and two scripts: boot and 
bootprefix
 

>
> Is the standard distro anything more than the core plugin?
>

Yes, the mentioned html file + the core plugin. 
The core is a plugin in the sense that you can plug it out and plug in 
anything else in exchange.  This is due to the extreme modularity of 
tiddlywiki that we all love and take advantage of. 
Do you want to see what the shell is? Here it is:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/templates/tiddlywiki5.html.tid

A tiddlywiki file without any core

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Mat]

The question asked in two other ways ... at least I think it is the same 
question:

If you delete the core plugin from an empty TW, is there anything left? If 
yes, what? Some empty shell perhaps? (ref to the previous analogies - even 
if you remove the engine or the heart, there's still something left of the 
car/body)

Is the standard distro anything more than the core plugin?

<:-)

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[tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Jed Carty]

I have a very unhelpful answer: It plugs into boot.js between lines 1983 
and 1996 
 (https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/boot/boot.js)

You could argue that anything that uses boot.js and bootprefix.js to start 
up is a tiddlywiki. I don't think that it is a useful argument, but the 
actual base of what tiddlywiki is is a method of loading modules that have 
a specific format. By themselves those two files don't do anything useful, 
but the idea is very similar to how the linux kernel works, and, not 
coincidentally, the structure I used for the code in the robot I work with.

What is probably a more useful argument is that anything website or file 
loaded in a browser is a browser plugin. The boot scripts for tiddlywiki 
are run by the browser and create the structure for loading and 
manipulating tiddlers. So the core is a plugin, even in the sense of an 
optional feature, for tiddlywiki. The tiddlywiki wouldn't be able to do 
much that is useful without an alternate core plugin but it would still 
have the parts that make it a tiddlywiki on the back-end at least. The core 
plugin adds the visible parts like filtering and wikitext parsing, you 
don't have much without them, but they are very definitely added onto the 
existing system created by the boot scripts.

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[tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[David Gifford]

Thanks Jeremy and TiddlyTweeter for a good chuckle reading this thread. 
Reminded me of Alice in Wonderland:

'When I use a *word*,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it 
*means* just *what* I choose it to *mean* — neither more nor less.'

It also made me wonder what the core plugs into if it is called a plugin. 
Does it plug into itself? Or into the browser?

:-)

Dave

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?
>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Arlen Beiler]

The only actually core code is in bootprefix.js and boot.js. Reminds me of
Linux... :)

On May 12, 2017 20:37, "Jeremy Ruston"  wrote:

> Hi Josiah
>
>
> This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on
> OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the
> same tiddler structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of
> itself and the rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am
> NOT fussed that Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the
> normal sense. Switch it off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.
>
>
> Aha! That's helpful; thank you for your patience in exploring these
> thoughts...
>
> The basic problem there is that you are ignoring the definition of
> "plugin" that TiddlyWiki uses, and instead basing your reasoning on a
> different definition. As I say, in TiddlyWiki, a plugin is a bundle of
> tiddlers. That's all.
>
> Anyhow, the core is not optional in the sense that TiddlyWiki can operate
> without it, but it *is* optional in another critical sense: anybody can
> make an alternative core plugin.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah
> 
> This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on OPTIONAL 
> feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the same tiddler 
> structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of itself and the 
> rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am NOT fussed that 
> Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the normal sense. Switch it 
> off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.

Aha! That's helpful; thank you for your patience in exploring these thoughts...

The basic problem there is that you are ignoring the definition of "plugin" 
that TiddlyWiki uses, and instead basing your reasoning on a different 
definition. As I say, in TiddlyWiki, a plugin is a bundle of tiddlers. That's 
all.

Anyhow, the core is not optional in the sense that TiddlyWiki can operate 
without it, but it *is* optional in another critical sense: anybody can make an 
alternative core plugin.

Best wishes

Jeremy



> 
> Best wishes
> Josiah
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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Birthe C]

Hi Josiah,

Tiddlywiki is one single html file. You have seen lots of html files not 
being tiddlywiki. Clearly something is added to it to make it a tiddlywiki. 
Thinking about it that way it is an add-on.


Birthe

This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on 
> OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system.
>

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on 
OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the 
same tiddler structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of 
itself and the rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am 
NOT fussed that Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the 
normal sense. Switch it off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jeremy

So its NOT a plugin :-)

Its the system itself.

If so, WHY is it listed as a plugin?

THAT I do not understand.

Josiah
 

> Jeremy Ruston replied ... 
>
The same as if you took the engine out of your car, or cut the heart out of 
> an animal.
>
> Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could? 
>>>
>>  

> Jeremy Ruston wrote ...
>
>> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>> why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?
>>>
>>
>> There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin 
>> called $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of 
>> tiddlers.
>>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Jeremy Ruston]

> 
> Ciao Jeremy
> 
> Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

The same as if you took the engine out of your car, or cut the heart out of an 
animal.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> 
> Josiah
> 
>> On Friday, 12 May 2017 22:29:21 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>> Hi Josiah
>> 
 On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
 why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?
>> 
>> There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin called 
>> $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of tiddlers.
>> 
>> Best wishes
>> 
>> Jeremy.
> 
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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

Josiah

On Friday, 12 May 2017 22:29:21 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Josiah
>
> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?
>>
>
> There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin 
> called $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of 
> tiddlers.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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Re: [tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

>> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>> why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?

There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin called 
$:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy.


>> 
> 
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[tw] Re: simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[codacodercodacoder]

I'd say Jeremy's choice here is the ultimate in dogfooding: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food


On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?
>
>

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