Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
Not as up-to-date on developments here as in the past, so may be completely off-base, but are you talking about a TW-specific browser? Something that has the advantages of a single-file browser-based wiki without all the compatibility issues with the continually evolving generic browsers? Almost. The situation is that all browsers are actually split into two parts a rendering engine and the chrome around the edge of it (ie, the user interface). So, Google Chrome and Apple Safari both use the same WebKit rendering engine, with their own UI chrome around it. Firefox is based on a rendering engine called Gecko. So, the idea is to take the raw rendering engine and wrap it up with a custom user interface that serves the purposes of TiddlyWiki, without being burdened by browser-specifics that aren't relevant (eg bookmark sync). The second thing you mentioned, working around the compatibility issues of browsers, is actually accomplished by using node.js to run the TiddlyWiki core as a little mini webserver. The node.js app is allowed to save things to the file system, and so the browser gets the same ability by talking to it over HTTP. As a workaround it's pretty good, because there is no hackery involved, it's an entirely conventional way to build applications. So it gives us a solid fallback, of a useful and powerful configuration that is independent of browser quirks. It doesn't mean the end of the line for the single file configuration of TiddlyWiki. It will always work well as a read-only distribution format, and recent experiments suggest that there is a lot of life in the various hacks to maintain the ability to save locally. I'll try to draw some pictures of these configurations, I realise that it's all a bit confusing, Best wishes Jeremy -- Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net Every moment is unique and discrete. Eknath Eswaran -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
On Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:48:34 PM UTC+7, Jeremy Ruston wrote: The second thing you mentioned, working around the compatibility issues of browsers, is actually accomplished by using node.js to run the TiddlyWiki core as a little mini webserver. Is the use of node.js (one of) the way(s) future TW will run? For anyone of course, not just Jeremy: Is the experimenting with the current TW solid/easy enough for a non-programming-but-geeky user to start to play around with? Could it be packaged with the file to be run from the same folder (as localhost) when read/write is required? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/BCKpceqKaN0J. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
On Feb 9, 2012, at 4:48 AM, Jeremy Ruston wrote: I'll try to draw some pictures of these configurations, I realise that it's all a bit confusing, At first I was going to say, No, I don't, and probably never will, understand the actual technology, but I get the general picture. But your comment that it doesn't mean the end of the line for the single file configuration of TiddlyWiki brought me up a little short. I've wondered for long time, and have done so here more than once, whether a TW-specific browser would solve the browser compatibility issues that been with us for a long time, and whether such a thing could even be constructed. From your response I gather that that's not exactly what you're working on, but to the degree that I understand it it's appealing. The comment that brought me up short leads me to think, however, that I might not be able to simply port my tiddlers and plugins over to the new app and go merrily on as I have with the exception of a few things I've had to just live with. The latter, as best I can recall, have had to do in part with incompatibilities between a a favorite plugin or two and OSX. Since I'm not able to identify the problems at this point you may not be able to answer, but is it possible that the new app will avoid incompatibilities with OSX? Anyway, it sounds very interesting. Glad you're back at work on TW. Sincerely, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA eew...@bellsouth.net What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful? - Mary Oliver -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
Is the use of node.js (one of) the way(s) future TW will run? Yes, that is correct. TiddlyWiki5 will run in the browser (meaning desktop and mobile) and under node.js (which either means running locally on your machine, or running on a server somewhere). For anyone of course, not just Jeremy: Is the experimenting with the current TW solid/easy enough for a non-programming-but-geeky user to start to play around with? Yes, I think it is in a reasonable state for a little experimentation. You might find the command line abilities to extract tiddlers from TiddlyWiki files useful. But the intention is that end users of TiddlyWiki can see everything that might interest them at http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki5 Could it be packaged with the file to be run from the same folder (as localhost) when read/write is required? Are you asking whether it will be possible to use TiddlyWiki5 as a webserver that stores it's data in an ordinary TiddlyWiki file? It would be possible to do that, but it might not be very efficient to be writing out the entire TiddlyWiki file every time a tiddler changes. Best wishes Jeremy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
At first I was going to say, No, I don't, and probably never will, understand the actual technology, but I get the general picture. But your comment that it doesn't mean the end of the line for the single file configuration of TiddlyWiki brought me up a little short. I've wondered for long time, and have done so here more than once, whether a TW-specific browser would solve the browser compatibility issues that been with us for a long time, and whether such a thing could even be constructed. From your response I gather that that's not exactly what you're working on, but to the degree that I understand it it's appealing. I wouldn't really think of it as a special TW browser; it's more of a case of wrapping TiddlyWiki up into a custom application for each platform. Anyhow, it can definitely be done - TWEdit and TWMobile on the iPad/iPhone are an excellent example of such a thing. The comment that brought me up short leads me to think, however, that I might not be able to simply port my tiddlers and plugins over to the new app and go merrily on as I have with the exception of a few things I've had to just live with. Are you referring to backwards compatibility concerns with older versions of TiddlyWiki? I'm certainly making backwards compatibility an important criterion for the design as it emerges. But there are areas where I do intend to break it, notably, I plan to change the wikifier so that it generates the expected P tags instead of endless BRs. And there will be no support for running macros written for classic TiddlyWiki; they will need to be rewritten for TW5 (you'll readily understand that the alternative would have required retaining too many of TiddlyWiki's original quirks and misdesigns). So, I think it will be one of those situations where 98% of content will transfer across quite happily. The latter, as best I can recall, have had to do in part with incompatibilities between a a favorite plugin or two and OSX. Since I'm not able to identify the problems at this point you may not be able to answer, but is it possible that the new app will avoid incompatibilities with OSX? I think I'd need to understand more about the original problem. As I said, those plugins will not work in TW5, and so the question might be hypothetical. Anyway, it sounds very interesting. Glad you're back at work on TW. Thanks for the kind words, Best wishes Jeremy Sincerely, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA eew...@bellsouth.net What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful? - Mary Oliver -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
I'm very interested in being able to package TW5 up as a Mac/Windows application that (a) embeds node.js to run the web server version of TW and (b) embeds WebKit to handle display (c) talks to special browser extensions for Chrome/Firefox/Safari that let you snip content into your TiddlyWiki. Such a thing would approach the ease of use of conventional apps, and escape the limitations of our browser hacks for local file saving. I have seen a few interesting experiments in this area: https://github.com/maccman/macgap Best wishes Jeremy On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:01 AM, perlguy perl...@gmail.com wrote: Inherent contradiction there. TW's current (soon to be called legacy I guess) implementation's storage model doesn't fit with modern browsers' tighter security. true... which is why I'm hoping that sometime soon, we have a platform independent desktop web-app engine... which I hope is firefox or chrome based, given their ubiquity. The FOSS project upstream of Chrome has a Prism analog in the works, but I imagine it will only work well with the future TW NG. I'm having some initial success with the current xulrunner (10.0), the included first_browser sample, and running the current release of TW, even saving without requiring the java applet. If I can just manage to tweak it so that links launch using the default browser, instead of internally, I'll be happy with it... and will gladly put it on github or the like. I have some legacy apps with very important data I haven't got around to converting that I run in a VM when needed - a pain to get set up, but now it's just like launching just another app - not much bigger or slower than launching something like Photoshop (or a fully loaded FF 8-) either. Heh... thankfully, with TW, I didn't have to resort to such tactics... I just use the latest firefox... not my personal ideal, but perfectly usable. I hope I don't ever run into anything for personal use that requires me to run a Linux VM, for those reasons at least. I already run one for XP, for those times when it's impossible to do something in FF/Chrome under Linux. I manage systems for a living, which I really enjoy... but I'd rather not spend any more time off-hours than I have to, maintaining yet another. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
This would be **so** cool - would it be possible to also keep the single-HTML-open-in-your-browser model? Ideally, such an app would be created as portable from the get-go, in both senses: - multi-platform, supporting at least mswin, linux and osx - on windows, being able to run from an arbitrary path without needing admin rights, changing the global environment or writing to the registry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/d7sUiFs229QJ. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
This would be **so** cool - would it be possible to also keep the single-HTML-open-in-your-browser model? Yes. In the new world of TW5, the SHTMLOIYB model is just one of the formats that you can use to output your content. So, in the background, the node.js app could be publishing a static SHTMLOIYB file of your public content to the web. Ideally, such an app would be created as portable from the get-go, in both senses: - multi-platform, supporting at least mswin, linux and osx - on windows, being able to run from an arbitrary path without needing admin rights, changing the global environment or writing to the registry Yes, node.js works happily like that, I believe. Best wishes Jeremy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
Inherent contradiction there. TW's current (soon to be called legacy I guess) implementation's storage model doesn't fit with modern browsers' tighter security. true... which is why I'm hoping that sometime soon, we have a platform independent desktop web-app engine... which I hope is firefox or chrome based, given their ubiquity. The FOSS project upstream of Chrome has a Prism analog in the works, but I imagine it will only work well with the future TW NG. I'm having some initial success with the current xulrunner (10.0), the included first_browser sample, and running the current release of TW, even saving without requiring the java applet. If I can just manage to tweak it so that links launch using the default browser, instead of internally, I'll be happy with it... and will gladly put it on github or the like. I have some legacy apps with very important data I haven't got around to converting that I run in a VM when needed - a pain to get set up, but now it's just like launching just another app - not much bigger or slower than launching something like Photoshop (or a fully loaded FF 8-) either. Heh... thankfully, with TW, I didn't have to resort to such tactics... I just use the latest firefox... not my personal ideal, but perfectly usable. I hope I don't ever run into anything for personal use that requires me to run a Linux VM, for those reasons at least. I already run one for XP, for those times when it's impossible to do something in FF/Chrome under Linux. I manage systems for a living, which I really enjoy... but I'd rather not spend any more time off-hours than I have to, maintaining yet another. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
On Feb 5, 8:29 am, HansWobbe hwo...@datafix.com wrote: Thanks for posting this! ... It seems May you live in interesting times turns out to be both a curse and a blessing, depending on your vested interests. Agreed... my initial excitement over seeing the words chromeless web browser were dashed when I got to the part where they say it's not been open sourced yet... and on further reflection, it probably wouldn't work as replacement for prism/webrunner anyway, being tied to YUI, etc. Does anyone know of a tiddlywiki friendly replacement for prism by chance? One that stays current with the underlying rendering and javascript engines? (I still use standalone prism for my TWs on XP... sadly, it no longer works under linux - some library dependency broke in F15 or F16). --Jim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
On Tuesday, February 7, 2012 3:42:51 AM UTC+7, perlguy wrote: Agreed... my initial excitement over seeing the words chromeless web browser were dashed when I got to the part where they say it's not been open sourced yet... and on further reflection, it probably wouldn't work as replacement for prism/webrunner anyway, being tied to YUI, etc. My ultimate hope would be that TiddlyWiki itself could be implemented in such a way as to not require *any* browser, be freed of that dependence. Ideally being able to choose to run within a given browser as well, just not requiring it. Does anyone know of a tiddlywiki friendly replacement for prism by chance? One that stays current with the underlying rendering and javascript engines? (I still use standalone prism for my TWs on XP... Inherent contradiction there. TW's current (soon to be called legacy I guess) implementation's storage model doesn't fit with modern browsers' tighter security. The FOSS project upstream of Chrome has a Prism analog in the works, but I imagine it will only work well with the future TW NG. sadly, it no longer works under linux - some library dependency broke in F15 or F16 I have some legacy apps with very important data I haven't got around to converting that I run in a VM when needed - a pain to get set up, but now it's just like launching just another app - not much bigger or slower than launching something like Photoshop (or a fully loaded FF 8-) either. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/nhQc5L42j6IJ. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: what Yahoo calls a chromeless browser
Thanks for posting this! So far this year, I've had to allocate the majority of my time to learning about APPs and I've been a bit peeved that this activity has displaced several other interests that I was hoping to enjoy working on (such as TiddlySpace TiddlyWiki refinements). What I've learned, however, is that developments like this, that put a User's (Micro)Content back within the control of its creator, are much more likely to be viable in the long-term, than the aggregation of user content by intermediaries who (like Facebook) are of the opinion that the content you create belongs to them. It will be interesting to see just how quickly things change, now that developers are starting to build the needed tools. I even suspect that there will be reinforcing trends from the increased emphasis on peer-to-peer communications technologies. In the mean time, all of the SOPA and IP debates that are focused on a centralized site model, seem to me to be quite irrelevant when all I have to do is attach a TW file to an email, or cook as TS based solution. Better yet, these solutions can even be designed to work together with a period DVD shipment of MicroContent that could be used as a TransClusion into a structured wrapper. It seems May you live in interesting times turns out to be both a curse and a blessing, depending on your vested interests. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups TiddlyWiki group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/JU-uN81x_tYJ. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
