[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Scott Grimmett]

Re "Saving" could TiddlyWiki default to the BrowserStorage Plugin, but 
automatically draw a banner at the top of the window once a certain number 
of changes or edit time has passed? The banner could link to a tutorial on 
saving methods.

Rationale:

   - let people get the buzz of making their own tiddlers straight away
   - delay the advanced topic of saving methods until the user knows 
   whether TiddlyWiki fits how their mind works.

I am going to see if I can make a table comparing all the different saving 
methods with pros and cons for each. I think I have tried every different 
method because I love my Tiddlywikis so much I will endure a lot of pain to 
save them! I have settled on TiddlyDesktop but am disappointed that the 
ExternalAttachments for TiddlyDesktop plugin can't cope when the TiddlyWiki 
is on a network drive (Google File Stream).


On Monday, 20 April 2020 22:01:12 UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

@ Reet: good point. I am also a newbie and the way I got started is also by 
running into those same guy's tutorials by accident too. A pity nobody made 
some follow-up ones.


18 May 2020, 06:05 by reet11pand...@gmail.com:

> I am completely new to TiddlyWiki and i would like to share my experience on 
> accessibility of TW to the general non-coder populace.
> If it wasn't for > this guy's tutorials 
> >  
> i would have never gotten into TiddlyWiki.
> I tried it once last month and i absolutely couldn't figure out what to do 
> and how to do it. There was just no user friendly guide available on the 
> website. Then out of the blue YouTube recommended me his videos. The first 
> thing that came to my mind was why the hell is a tutorial like that not 
> available from official sources.
> I think you should post his tutorials on your website. They are super good 
> for priming a non-programming newb brain. 
> I was out on the market looking at every possible alternative for a proper 
> note taking/Knowledge Management application and they always seemed to lack 
> one thing or the other. Now i have completely shifted all my note taking as 
> well as my Knowledge Bank over to TiddlyWIki now. And to think i would have 
> been dissuaded to use this amazing product had it not been for a random 
> YouTube suggestion. 
>
>
>
> --
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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>  
> >
>  .
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Reet Pandher]

I am completely new to TiddlyWiki and i would like to share my experience 
on accessibility of TW to the general non-coder populace.
If it wasn't for this guy's tutorials 
 
i would have never gotten into TiddlyWiki.
I tried it once last month and i absolutely couldn't figure out what to do 
and how to do it. There was just no user friendly guide available on the 
website. Then out of the blue YouTube recommended me his videos. The first 
thing that came to my mind was why the hell is a tutorial like that not 
available from official sources.
I think you should post his tutorials on your website. They are super good 
for priming a non-programming newb brain. 
I was out on the market looking at every possible alternative for a proper 
note taking/Knowledge Management application and they always seemed to lack 
one thing or the other. Now i have completely shifted all my note taking as 
well as my Knowledge Bank over to TiddlyWIki now. And to think i would have 
been dissuaded to use this amazing product had it not been for a random 
YouTube suggestion. 

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Edgaras]

Anne-Laure Le Cunff found this another day! Truly great inspiration for TW!

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

Wanted to share another source of inspiration: https://supernotes.app/

p.s. I know the founder of Marketing Examples, such a great resource!

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 12:06:56 PM UTC+1, shashank wrote:
>
> Since, it's the visual/perception/UX/ marketing aspects where Tiddly has 
> some ground to cover, I recommend also keeping having a look an the various 
> nifty tips on https://marketingexamples.com/
>
> also, adding some sources for landing page inspiration: 
> - User Onboarding videos of different sites: 
> https://pageflows.com/desktop/
> - Actionable Best practices for different sections of a site like Hero, 
> Features, Testimonials: https://saaspages.xyz/blocks/hero/
>
>
> Themes/Templates:
> https://www.landingfolio.com/inspiration/landing-page/?offset=3
> https://webflow.com/templates/search-results#stq=landing%20page
>
> On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 5:31:12 PM UTC+5:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> )
>>  
>> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>>
>> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
>> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
>> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
>> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
>> containing:
>>
>>- What TiddlyWiki is
>>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>>note/save)
>>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>>
>> A few examples:
>>
>>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>>- https://www.notion.so/
>>- https://roamresearch.com/
>>
>> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>>
>>
>> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Shashank Agrawal]

Since, it's the visual/perception/UX/ marketing aspects where Tiddly has 
some ground to cover, I recommend also keeping having a look an the various 
nifty tips on https://marketingexamples.com/

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 5:31:12 PM UTC+5:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[ChristianB]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 10:01:12 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 10:01:12 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Mike Manchester]

For the longest time I struggled with finding away to use Tiddlywiki on all 
my platforms. So I think it should also include a workable solution for 
working with Tiddlywiki on Windows, Mac,Linux, IOS and Android. For me that 
involves  TiddlyDesktop on my Mac, Windows and Linux and for my iPhone I'm 
using Quine2. I don't have an Android device so don't know what to use on 
that platform. I save my Tiddlywiki on Nextcloud which makes them available 
on all my platforms. This has made TiddlyWiki very useful. I now have a 
Journal, an inventory document and a document with all the information 
realted to camping to include my Camper inform, such as what maintenance I 
do and when I did it. When I added new items and a link to all the manuals. 
I plan to add campsites to go to and campsites visited with notes. Point is 
that before I found this solution I wasn't comfortable keeping things in 
TiddlyWiki because I could only get to it on my Desktop machine. I know on 
the current page there are a number of options and I tried most of them 
before ending up with my current setup. This solution was simple to setup 
and didn't require many addition items only TiddlyDesktop and Quine2. 
The idea solution would be to have a solution that worked with a browser 
but I found that required to many different solutions depending on browser 
and device. Accessing on a Web site like tiddlyspot works but sometimes I 
don't have access to the internet. Using Nextcloud I can use Tiddlywiki 
offline and sync when I'm connected again. 
Let me know if I can help. 

Just my thoughts. 

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:01:12 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Julio Peña]

Hmmmveeery interesting...
Will keep an eye out as well...

Best wishes,
Julio

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Mohammad]

@Jermey
I also support to have a landing page like notion to introduce Tiddlywiki 
and its use case and quick step to start with it.
and then the current tiddlywiki.com refers to documentation

@Mark
You have described the current situation nicely! 

   1. Contributing to docs through GitHub is a headache
   2. Tiddlywiki has all of required pieces but not in the right place
   3. Many people not get the different approach of Tiddlywiki, but tries 
   to make things the way other tools do (a common example is request for a 
   TOC for one tiddler)

@Ann-Laure

   1. A beginner guide is a must have
  1. starting with Tiddlywiki
  2. Creating notes (tiddlers)
  3. Simple wikitexts (NOT widgets, ...)
  4. Saving
  5. Organizing: using tags
  6. Display groups of notes and related things: using simple macros 
  like list-links, tabs, ...
  7. Exporting and printing (like export single tiddler to a html file, 
  or simple print and make pdf)
   2. Technical stuffs should be moved to a next layer
   3. Documentation needs to be organized in a linear way
   4. Proper links to tutorial, videos in suitable place

One minor comments: It takes time, one grasp the tiddler philosophy and do 
things in Tiddlywiki way

--Mohammad

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Jon]

>
> So it's like we have all the pieces of the clock, but still haven't 
> figured out what time it is.
>

Nice. I must remember that.

On Monday, 20 April 2020 13:01:12 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[TonyM]

One the introduction of users to TiddlyWiki

I want to restate a very important fact I would hope others would recognise 
as a gap.

*The first effort to make tiddlywiki your own is the presentation of 
empty.html*

   - This is not learner friendly and immediately frustrates new users in 
   trying to do things they want 
   (because most plugins and macros are not present)
   - Empty.html is great for experienced users and designers wanting to 
   build from a minimal platform
   - empty.html is also a good base or standard reference, but again not 
   for new users

*The answer?*

   - Develop a "standard" edition to tiddlywiki which is empty.html plus a 
   few standard features.
   - Maked this available with a Big Green Button before empty.html
   - Perhaps bundle all the changes in a single plugin "Standard additions" 
   and add to the library
   - However install the  "Standard additions"  plugin in an edition and 
   allow immediate download

*What to include in Standard Edition?*

This can be developed with community input however a few key features are 
obvious in my view

   - TableOfContents  contents tab
   - Aspects discussed here 
   

   - A Searchable index of reference tiddlers in tiddlywiki.com so people 
   can search for documentation and get a link to the reference.
   - The Standard edition should showcase as much as possible of 
   tiddlywikis features, without bloating it.
   - Various other minimal additions.

Regards
Tony

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 10:01:12 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure Le Cunff posted this in a different thread (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/161921e0-395e-46b9-8179-dd853fbb21ed%40googlegroups.com
>  
> )
>  
> but I think it’s worth making a new thread for it:
>
> I have to agree it's been hard to convince people to give TiddlyWiki a 
> proper try, mainly I think because of the experience for a new user. The 
> landing page is confusing, saving/backing up your notes seems unnecessarily 
> complicated. Ideally, there should be a regular static landing page 
> containing:
>
>- What TiddlyWiki is
>- A nice screenshot or walkthrough video
>- How to easily get started in 3 steps (download/create your first 
>note/save)
>- Link to docs.tiddlywiki.com (current tiddlywiki.com) with a welcome 
>page listing concepts to explore *in order* for people who have 
>installed everything and are ready to dive in
>- Link to this community + Twitter for extra help
>
> A few examples:
>
>- https://www.gatsbyjs.org/
>- https://www.notion.so/
>- https://roamresearch.com/
>
> I think this would do *a lot* to help grow the TW community!
>
>
> I think this is solid advice, and we should act on it.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Sylvain Naudin]

 
Le lundi 20 avril 2020 14:52:59 UTC+2, Yoni Balkind a écrit :
>
>
> - consider keeping a curated list of unofficial tutorials. You can store 
> this on a tiddler on tiddlywiki.com and it should link to youtube videos 
> and blog posts that your community has created. Eg Anne-Laure's recent post 
> on on her blog. 
>

 
This is just after GettingStarted, but, yes, it's quite old ! It's about 
how to contribute with pull request from GitHub I think, which I barely 
know how to do.




But otherwise totally in agreement with Anne-Laure's suggestion.
I just received a tweet earlier about the GettingStarted section that's 
scary when it shouldn't be.

Sylvain

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Re: [tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

As a non-programming TW newbie I second Shawn's comments.

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Shawn Murdock]

Jeremy,
   I agree that a more structured way to get into Tiddlywiki is needed to 
appeal to a greater audience. When I was looking for a solution for keeping 
my notes/records/information in something that was portable (very important 
to me) and easy to maintain, I stumbled into Tiddlywiki and I loved it. The 
basics I got right away. My issue, and I still have some, is how quickly I 
went from creating tids to needed ways to structure and organize them to 
ways to generate collections of lists and custom "reports".
That is where I had issues. As I explored the main Tiddlywiki site I 
quickly got into the programming side of things i.e., widgets, macros, 
filters, and such. Now I am not a programmer, but I have programmed. These 
areas, to me, are written in a programmers - technical way and the concepts 
are hard to visualize. I think if there was a friendlier way to show how 
these things work and explain the concepts - connect the dots if you will - 
I think it would go a long way to making this more of a keeper app.
I tend to use my wikis for a while and then run into a problem or need a 
new solution, or at least have an idea. When I go into the references for 
widgets and lists and such I kind of get lost and its hard to visualize 
what I need.
Now having the forum and other sites helps tons. But I like figuring things 
out and I don't want to bother people with problems that might really be 
dumb. I will post when I hit a wall, but I know most people wont. They just 
want to use it and they don't have time to get there hands dirty.

So I guess after blathering a bit:

   - The bullets above are great
   - Maybe a non-programmers way to teach the programming - ease people 
   into concepts
   - Maybe a front page article, weekly or so, that examines a particular 
   concept and goes from basics and concepts to detailed examples.
   - These deep dive articles could be youtube videos or something
   
Hope this helps in some way. This has been my experience and maybe 
atypical. I have really enjoyed Tiddlywiki.

Shawn

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

@Jeremy - I'd be happy to help. Shouldn't take too much work to use a 
template to create a static html/css page but would be great to have 
everyone's input.

@Yoni - Welcome to TW! Also want to clarify that I agree docs should stay 
on TiddlyWiki itself, just that they should not be the first thing you see 
when you go to Tiddlywiki.com :)


On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 1:52:59 PM UTC+1, Yoni Balkind wrote:
>
> I'm a new user (thanks to Anne-Laure's promotion of TW) and I have to say 
> I'm really struggling to get going.. 
>
> But I'm sympathetic to the challenge of creating good help guides for an 
> open source project. Perhaps I will volunteer to help a bit when I'm better 
> at using TiddlyWinks. 
>
> Some of the quick wins that I think would help:
>
> - consider keeping a curated list of unofficial tutorials. You can store 
> this on a tiddler on tiddlywiki.com and it should link to youtube videos 
> and blog posts that your community has created. Eg Anne-Laure's recent post 
> on on her blog. 
>
> - consider separating your how-to documentation from other types of 
> documentation. This concept is really nicely explained here 
> https://documentation.divio.com/introduction/. As a new user I just want 
> to see how-to's. 
>
> - consider migrating away from google groups in my opinion. Perhaps use 
> reddit or slack as the official discussion channel. Just a personal view 
> but Google Groups has an outdated feel
>
> You are doing lots right though. I personally think you are right to host 
> docs on TiddlyWiki itself. Its good that you are active on Twitter and that 
> you engage with the community there.
>

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[tw5] Re: Rethinking tiddlywiki.com

[Yoni Balkind]

I'm a new user (thanks to Anne-Laure's promotion of TW) and I have to say 
I'm really struggling to get going.. 

But I'm sympathetic to the challenge of creating good help guides for an 
open source project. Perhaps I will volunteer to help a bit when I'm better 
at using TiddlyWinks. 

Some of the quick wins that I think would help:

- consider keeping a curated list of unofficial tutorials. You can store 
this on a tiddler on tiddlywiki.com and it should link to youtube videos 
and blog posts that your community has created. Eg Anne-Laure's recent post 
on on her blog. 

- consider separating your how-to documentation from other types of 
documentation. This concept is really nicely explained here 
https://documentation.divio.com/introduction/. As a new user I just want to 
see how-to's. 

- consider migrating away from google groups in my opinion. Perhaps use 
reddit or slack as the official discussion channel. Just a personal view 
but Google Groups has an outdated feel

You are doing lots right though. I personally think you are right to host 
docs on TiddlyWiki itself. Its good that you are active on Twitter and that 
you engage with the community there.

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