Re: [twdev] [TWX] only textreferences to target

2019-06-13 Thread Mat 

>
> (Side note: I read somewhere that browsers will soon introduce something 
> so that you can give an url to a specific point on a webpage.)
>
> Every anchor already has a URL. I believe the new proposal is for 
> addressing DOM elements that don’t have an anchor.
>

Without parsing? Might this then be the very thing that would enable what 
I'm talking about? A thing that does identify the run of a text and is on a 
low enough level?

Thank you for your replies. Interesting matters.

<:-)


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[twdev] Re: First call for planned release of v5.1.20

2019-06-13 Thread @TiddlyTweeter 
IMO December to June is FINE.

Its more for me about just checking for backwards compatibility on my fav 
plugins. Usually everything works. If they don't I'll say. I never needed 
to yet.

I guess as the system gets more complex chances of breakdown increase?

A view
Josiah

On Thursday, 13 June 2019 18:49:46 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’d like to try to get v5.1.20 released in the next week or two. With that 
> in mind, I’d be grateful for assistance in testing and verifying the latest 
> build:
>
> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/
>
> In particular, this is a great time for plugin developers/users to test 
> the new release with important plugins and let us know if there are any 
> backwards compatibility issues. 
>
> Even by TW5 standards, it’s been a long delay since the last release in 
> December. That’s entirely my fault, but I’d like to try to avoid delaying 
> the release with any further pull requests. Having said that, if you’re 
> responsible for any unmerged PRs that you believe are ready to be merged 
> then please do let me know.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
>
>

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[twdev] First call for planned release of v5.1.20

2019-06-13 Thread Jeremy Ruston 
I’d like to try to get v5.1.20 released in the next week or two. With that in 
mind, I’d be grateful for assistance in testing and verifying the latest build:

https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/ 

In particular, this is a great time for plugin developers/users to test the new 
release with important plugins and let us know if there are any backwards 
compatibility issues. 

Even by TW5 standards, it’s been a long delay since the last release in 
December. That’s entirely my fault, but I’d like to try to avoid delaying the 
release with any further pull requests. Having said that, if you’re responsible 
for any unmerged PRs that you believe are ready to be merged then please do let 
me know.

Best wishes

Jeremy.


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Re: [twdev] [TWX] only textreferences to target

2019-06-13 Thread Jeremy Ruston 
Hi May

> 
>> We try to use text references in shortcut syntaxes but now prefer separate 
>> title/field/index attributes for widgets.
> 
> Is this a real preference or a compromise? Are separate attributes better 
> than to have one textreference?

Yes, because of the point I made above: if an attribute specifies a text 
reference then it is impossible to refer to a tiddler with !! or ## in its 
title. That might not matter for end users, but for TW5 itself its a 
deal-breaker: we really don’t want to have the situation where typing certain 
characters into a tiddler title causes other things to fail.

> We do, after all, use the compact textreference format sometimes in current 
> TW.

Yes, this is a matter of layering:

Top: shortcut syntax
Middle: macros
Bottom: widgets

We have text references at the top layer because they are, after all, a 
convenient shortcut. But they don’t belong at the bottom layer. As you say, we 
do have old widgets that accept text references as an attribute but we now 
offer separate tiddler/field/index attributes alongside.

> The point with my proposal was to avoid unnecessary parameters when possible. 
> I also think there is a nice aesthetic, and an opportunity, to treat 
> textreferences as a gradually more fine grained address. A kind of name space.

The shortcomings of text references mean that they are not universal, they can 
only be a shortcut.

> The ## used for data tiddler indices is only valid within a text reference. 
> Otherwise it would clash with the use of # for numbered lists.
> 
> So, both the fact that browsers apparently force us to use ##, at least atm,

(It’s not browsers that do that, it’s TW5 that requires the second # — see 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3811 

> and that TWX ought to feature hashtagging speaks for coming up with something 
> else for numbered lists. 
> 
> Side note: One idea could be to use asterisks (*) for all those typed kinds 
> of lists of lists, but specify how it should appear e.g in the first element. 
> I think bullet lists are under used, and we can do much more with them (eg 
>  , eg ), 
> particularly considering the role lists play in TW.

The plan for TWX is that anyone will be able to add/change their own wikitext 
rules, without using JS.

> 
>> I think this means that any part of a tiddler could be designed to be 
>> addressable. Even in the url.
> Ah, are you suggesting that {{HelloThere##mylink}} should return the text of 
> the anchor labelled “mylink”? The problem with that is that you probably 
> don’t want the text of the anchor (because there often won’t be any), you’ll 
> probably want the text from the link up to some landmark (e.g. the next 
> heading). That kind of thing is far too complex to be a low level primitive.
> 
> But, we're already doing that with tiddlers (by providing the title), and 
> fields and indices - ???

Because they are directly addressable, while pulling out an anchor requires 
parsing the text (which is slow).

> Why could we not (hypothetically) do it with segments marked out by 
> arbitrarily placed markers? It would be a kind of encapsulation. Other than 
> to use it as an address for navigation, it could be used for styling (I 
> guess, basically converting it to div tags). A more tiddleresque idea is to 
> use it for "auto-excision"to automatically split out such segments that 
> evidently deserve to be separate tiddlers.

Plus there’s the issue I mentioned above that link anchors identify a location 
within a document, they do not define a run of text.

> (Side note: I read somewhere that browsers will soon introduce something so 
> that you can give an url to a specific point on a webpage.)

Every anchor already has a URL. I believe the new proposal is for addressing 
DOM elements that don’t have an anchor.

Best wishes

Jeremy.


> 
> <:-)
> 
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Re: [twdev] [TWX] only textreferences to target

2019-06-13 Thread Mat 
Jeremy, thanks for input.

When I use the TWX disclaimer I typically assume a substantial remake like 
TWC --> TW5, exactly to avoid the limits of the current TW implementation.

We try to use text references in shortcut syntaxes but now prefer separate 
> title/field/index attributes for widgets.
>
> Is this a real preference or a compromise? Are separate attributes better 
than to have one textreference? We do, after all, use the compact 
textreference format *sometimes* in current TW. The point with my proposal 
was to avoid unnecessary parameters when possible. I also think there is a 
nice aesthetic, and an opportunity, to treat textreferences as a gradually 
more fine grained address. A kind of name space.
 

The ## used for data tiddler indices is only valid within a text reference. 
> Otherwise it would clash with the use of # for numbered lists.
>

So, both the fact that browsers apparently force us to use ##, at least 
atm, and that TWX ought to feature *hashtagging* speaks for coming up with 
something else for numbered lists. 

Side note: One idea could be to use asterisks (*) for *all* those typed 
kinds of lists of lists, but specify how it should appear e.g in the first 
element. I think bullet lists are under used, and we can do much more with 
them (eg  , eg 
), particularly considering the role 
lists play in TW.

I think this means that any part of a tiddler could be designed to be 
> addressable. Even in the url.
>
> Ah, are you suggesting that {{HelloThere##mylink}} should return the text 
> of the anchor labelled “mylink”? The problem with that is that you probably 
> don’t want the text of the anchor (because there often won’t be any), 
> you’ll probably want the text from the link up to some landmark (e.g. the 
> next heading). That kind of thing is far too complex to be a low level 
> primitive.
>

But, we're already doing that with tiddlers (by providing the title), and 
fields and indices - ??? Why could we not (hypothetically) do it with 
segments marked out by arbitrarily placed markers? It would be a kind of 
encapsulation. Other than to use it as an address for navigation, it could 
be used for styling (I guess, basically converting it to div tags). A more 
tiddleresque idea is to use it for "auto-excision"to automatically split 
out such segments that evidently deserve to be separate tiddlers.

(Side note: I read somewhere that browsers will soon introduce something so 
that you can give an url to a specific point on a webpage.)

<:-)

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Re: [twdev] [TWX] only textreferences to target

2019-06-13 Thread Jeremy Ruston 
Hi Mat

> 1) Widgets would not have to use field parameters if the tiddler parameter is 
> always a textreference . 

The trouble with that is that it makes it impossible to reference a tiddler 
that has “!!” in its title. We try to use text references in shortcut syntaxes 
but now prefer separate title/field/index attributes for widgets.

> 2) If the ## syntax is not used for indices then it could instead be used in 
> textreferences for links internal in the tiddler, to harmonize with the 
> recent discovery that ## can be used for such tiddler-internal links.

The ## used for data tiddler indices is only valid within a text reference. 
Otherwise it would clash with the use of # for numbered lists.

> I think this means that any part of a tiddler could be designed to be 
> addressable. Even in the url.

Ah, are you suggesting that {{HelloThere##mylink}} should return the text of 
the anchor labelled “mylink”? The problem with that is that you probably don’t 
want the text of the anchor (because there often won’t be any), you’ll probably 
want the text from the link up to some landmark (e.g. the next heading). That 
kind of thing is far too complex to be a low level primitive.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> 
> <:-)
> 
> 
> 
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