Re: [time-nuts] Fury ntp refclock
On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 10:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One note of interest to the group in general: some of our future products have a new, very high performance mobile GPS on them that will actually track and output 16 Sats and more simultaneously (well, if it could see the Sats it would receive more than 30 channels) to GPSCon. A far cry from the 8-sat Oncore days, and this is causing some grief for GPSCon (not the entire list of Sat's can be shown by GPSCon without overflowing the page etc). We can't reveal the GPS details just yet though, please don't ask :) Those ublox chips are nice, aren't they? ;) -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fury ntp refclock
This is on a net4501 with the TMRIN mod running FreeBSD 7.0 (nanobsd). Fury 1.18 firmware with a surplus LPRO-101 packaged up in an old 1U Datum 670x rubidium reference chassis. ntptime ntp_gettime() returns code 0 (OK) time cc1d84fd.0fbd3800 Tue, Jul 8 2008 6:17:33.061, (.061481758), maximum error 1480 us, estimated error 15 us, TAI offset 0 ntp_adjtime() returns code 0 (OK) modes 0x0 (), offset -0.014 us, frequency -0.040 ppm, interval 1 s, maximum error 1480 us, estimated error 15 us, status 0x2001 (PLL,NANO), time constant 4, precision 0.001 us, tolerance 496 ppm, ntpq -c peers remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter == +REFCLK(45,0).GPS.0 l 13 16 3770.000 -1.152 3.108 oPPS(0) .PPS.0 l4 16 3770.0000.000 0.015 clockstats: 54655 22687.015 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 5.09e-12 -1.10e-09 46.10 1.994153 0.04 10.53 8 9 1 38 10 54655 22697.016 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 4.59e-12 -1.40e-09 46.00 1.994255 0.04 10.53 8 9 1 38 10 54655 22707.017 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 4.29e-12 -1.60e-09 46.10 1.994454 0.04 10.53 8 9 1 38 -11 54655 22717.017 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 3.56e-12 -1.90e-09 46.10 1.994834 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 38 4 54655 22727.018 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 3.29e-12 -2.10e-09 46.10 1.994912 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 -6 54655 22737.010 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 2.35e-12 -2.30e-09 46.10 1.994695 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 -14 54655 22747.010 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 2.08e-12 -2.60e-09 46.10 1.994872 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 -13 54655 22757.011 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 1.43e-12 -2.80e-09 46.10 1.995252 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 0 54655 22767.012 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 1.16e-12 -3.00e-09 46.10 1.995357 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 -5 54655 22777.012 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 8.07e-13 -3.20e-09 46.10 1.995337 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 3 54655 22787.014 127.127.45.0 94 1 0 0 5.83e-13 -3.40e-09 46.10 1.995080 0.04 10.53 9 9 1 36 -8 Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, We formatted the syst:stat? command on the Fury GPSDO so as to be compatible to GPSCon, that meant following a very rigorous syntax (including the exact number of spaces etc), it's not pretty - but works perfectly with GPSCon. One note of interest to the group in general: some of our future products have a new, very high performance mobile GPS on them that will actually track and output 16 Sats and more simultaneously (well, if it could see the Sats it would receive more than 30 channels) to GPSCon. A far cry from the 8-sat Oncore days, and this is causing some grief for GPSCon (not the entire list of Sat's can be shown by GPSCon without overflowing the page etc). We can't reveal the GPS details just yet though, please don't ask :) Seems the web interface of GPSCon works well with any number of Sats though, see for example: _http://www.jackson-labs.com/images/gpsstat.htm_ (http://www.jackson-labs.com/images/gpsstat.htm) We are working hard on a set of new products right now, so the ptime command changes will have to be put on a slightly lower priority for now unfortunately. Seems your driver is working well right now though from what I can gather in the email thread. Thanks for your hard work on this, bye, Said In a message dated 7/8/2008 02:09:12 W. Europe Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The gps?,sync?,diag?,meas? results were easier to parse than the system:status? since everything has a prefix. I'm not a fan of a the system:status? command, but it would be nice to get sat signal strength from the gps? command tree. My driver is not ideal, but it works with what the Fury can do with the current firmware. More to come. Scott **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Loop Damping
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 06:55:04 -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote: [...] Yes, it's quite flexible and you can have a lot of fun replacing the OCXO. I'm assuming a number of you will be trying this in the coming months. But even with the onboard OCXO, it allows you to change the time constant which can make a noticeable difference in the mid-term stability of the GPSDO. I'll dig out plots I made last year if you're interested. /tvb Perhaps there is not much to earn with it, but I thought as well about to replace the OCXO with a 10811 for test purpose etc. I am very much interested as well to see how to set the time constant in conjunction with the damping factor properly with the original onboard oscillator and, if already performed by somebody, with an other type. Would be great if you and others would share your/ their experience! What are the parameters to be watched with TBoltmon, what are the goals, to get the lowest variation on the 10 MHz ppb indication? What about the PPS value in ns UTC? If I do slight modifications specially on the time constant I get the indication drifting very slowly away, but the 10 MHz ppb does not vary much... Under this circumstance I do not see how to set the ns offset for pps. Is it necessary to compensate for the antenna cable delay and how I can do it? (pps offset?) I guess that the outcome will be to not make much modifications !? Arnold T. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Loop Damping
I am calculating plotting the ADEVs (or OADEVs) of the Thunderbolt's own PPS and OSC error estimates. The values are its estimate in the error of the PPS signal edge/OSC zero crossing to GPS time. I have queue of 22000 entries that tracks the last 22000 values of PPS and OSC errors. Every 10 seconds, it calculates and displays the ADEV or OADEVs of all the data in the queue (both a table and a plot). By the time the queue fills up it gives values out to 10,000 tau. Yeah, it's kinda flakey to rely on the device to compare its output signals to its own interpretation of GPS time, but it's free and requires no external equipment. The adding of the 1.0 second to the error estimate values (and the multiplying of the OSC ppb value by 100) was to simulate the values that an external time interval counter would produce if it was measuring the signals. Not really needed, but the code was lifted from another application and it was useful for doing some comparisons to some existing data. (BTW, the ADEV code was based upon your ADEV1.C) _ It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Loop Damping
Yeah, it's kinda flakey to rely on the device to compare its output signals to its own interpretation of GPS time, but it's free and requires no external equipment. Just because something is free doesn't mean it has any meaning. Stop and think about what your statistics are showing. The adding of the 1.0 second to the error estimate values (and the multiplying of the OSC ppb value by 100) was to You can't use the same ADEV algorithm for the TI values as the ppb values; one is phase, the other frequency. simulate the values that an external time interval counter would produce if it was measuring the signals. Not really needed, but the code was lifted from another application and it was useful for doing some comparisons to some existing data. (BTW, the ADEV code was based upon your ADEV1.C) I'm still confused and now also worried. The time interval values that adev1.c takes as input are very small numbers, like microseconds or nanoseconds. These are time *interval* measurements, as one would obtain when comparing the 1PPS of a reference against the 1PPS of a GPSDO. At best there is no need to add a fixed constant to these numbers. Note that the adev code will effectively eliminate a constant phase bias. But at worst, adding a constant that is millions or even billions of times greater than your data can cause floating point loss of precision errors. So keep the numbers small; think time error measurements, not time measurements. Second, use ADEV1 only on time interval or phase data. If you have frequency data you need to change the tool, or integrate frequency error back to phase error before you run the tool. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Loop Damping
I do modify the OSC ppb value to morph it into nanoseconds of error before I feed it to the ADEV code (at least I think I do... the documentation is not really clear on what the value really is). The constant 1 second offset that I added to the data makes absolutely no difference in the results (I tried it both ways). It was just there for consistency with another program that I have. The Trimble numbers are 32 bit floats, my 1 second offset number is a 64 bit double, it can handle the value just fine without losing any precision. The ADEV code subtracts pairs of values, so that constant value gets removed automatically (and to quell your concerns, I have removed it from the code). As far as what the statistics are showing... well they show the ADEV values of the Thunderbolt's own measurements of the signal errors (auto ADEV?). How those compare to measurements against an external reference is left as an exercise to the reader. The curves do seem to make some sense. I am seeing curves with distinct breaks in the slope at points that correspond to slope changes in your Thunderbolt ADEV plots. The main difference is below around 50 tau where a normal adev curve shows rising values then begins to fall. The plots on the Thunderbolt data show constantly falling adevs with distinct breaks in the slope. If the numbers were totally meaningless one would expect to see a line of constant slope as tau increases. Past 50 tau or so, the ADEV values seem to agree with what one would expect. _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Loop Damping
As far as what the statistics are showing... well they show the ADEV values of the Thunderbolt's own measurements of the signal errors (auto ADEV?). How those compare to measurements against an external reference is left as an exercise to the reader. What you're calculating is the combined ADEV of the GPS ref, the internal measurement system, including internal any filtering, and the OCXO. Your numbers can't show GPS, or the measurement system, or the OCXO by themselves, nor do your numbers reflect the actual GPSDO output signal performance as compared to a real reference clock. That's why it sort of looks like what you have left as an exercise to the reader is pretty much the entire exercise. Do have access to a Rb that you can use as a reference? Send me email offline if you'd like to borrow one. Still, one thing you could do now is see the effect of varying the loop time constant. With a tight loop the sdev or adev of TI and ppb will be very small; the looser the loop the wider the variance of those values. That's my guess at least. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PCB costs and suggestions for suppliers
I used Olimex for some boards, but since they are in European Community the prices increased. 2 Years ago US$ 99,- for 320x200mm, now 120 Euro plus VAT. But when you need a lot of different small boards it is a good option (Panel). Harry Hindriks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: dinsdag 8 juli 2008 19:54 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB costs and suggestions for suppliers In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David C. Partridge writ es: I'm looking to get a PCB made up for my frequency divider circuit. I'm based in the UK. I've used olimex.com for a couple of two-layer boards and I'm happy with the results. One advantage for me was that they took EagleCad files directly, so that I did't have to worry about inverted gerbers and all that. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Trimble T-Bolt Dumb Question
How does one determine that they are locked to the GPS system ? If I look at TboltMon I see lots of data, but nowhere do I find a specific statement that I am locked. The output frequency is accurate and stable enough to be locked and I see I have anywhere from 5 to 8 satellites tracked, but Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Trimble T-Bolt Dumb Question
In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Richard W. Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : How does one determine that they are locked to the GPS system ? : If I look at TboltMon I see lots of data, but nowhere do I find a : specific statement that I am locked. : : The output frequency is accurate and stable enough to be locked and : I see I have anywhere from 5 to 8 satellites tracked, but Usually locked to a GPS system just means that the oscillator that's controlled by the GPS is operating within some set of prescribed parameters and that the GPS receiver itself is a 'good enough' source of time. The exact definition of good enough varies quite a bit from system to system. You basically have to look at the numbers from your control loop, as well as self diagnostics from the GPS receiver to know if there's a lock or not. Warner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Trimble T-Bolt Dumb Question
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:00:24 -0400 (EDT), Richard W. Solomon wrote: How does one determine that they are locked to the GPS system ? If I look at TboltMon I see lots of data, but nowhere do I find a specific statement that I am locked. The output frequency is accurate and stable enough to be locked and I see I have anywhere from 5 to 8 satellites tracked, but Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ At the bottom window section of Thunderbolt Monitor subwindow 'Disciplining Status' you will see Mode '(0) Normal ' and Activity '(0) Phase Locking' In the subwindow 'Minor Alarms' the 'LED' 'Oscillator Disciplining' switches from yellow to green, when finally everything is stabilized all Alarm Indicators will have switched from yellow to green. regards Arnold T. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PCB costs and suggestions for suppliers
I have used Olimex also, from the US. Good quality, reasonable price and delivery, painless transaction overall. Only problem the last time I wanted to buy from them: they were on vacation and they simply did not reply or acknowledge my email until 2 weeks later when they came back... In the mean time, I had bought my PWBs from somewhere else, and I am sorry that I did because it ended up costing more and taking longer, because the other guys (US based, who shall remain nameless) blew their projected delivery by a bunch. Olimex will get my business again next time. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 12:54 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB costs and suggestions for suppliers In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David C. Partridge writ es: I'm looking to get a PCB made up for my frequency divider circuit. I'm based in the UK. I've used olimex.com for a couple of two-layer boards and I'm happy with the results. One advantage for me was that they took EagleCad files directly, so that I did't have to worry about inverted gerbers and all that. Poul-Henning ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Z3801A ThunderBolt USING SAME ANTENNA?
Hi, I am trying to set up a Z3801A and a ThunderBolt to operate off of one symmetricom 58532A antenna using a symmetricom 4-port smartsplitter. The Z3801A manual suggest using LMR 400 cable which is a 50 ohm cable which is compatible with the antenna. The thunderbolt which I receive has a type F connector and the thunderbolt manual suggest using 75 ohm rg59 cable. Will I have a problem connecting the thunderbolt to the smartsplitter using LRM400 50 ohm cable? The thunderbolt which I received came with a type f to bnc connector, but isn't a bnc connector underrated to handle the 1.5 GHz signal? Thanks, Jeff ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Z3801A ThunderBolt USING SAME ANTENNA?
Hi, I am trying to set up a Z3801A and a ThunderBolt to operate off of one symmetricom 58532A antenna using a symmetricom 4-port smartsplitter. The Z3801A manual suggest using LMR 400 cable which is a 50 ohm cable which is compatible with the antenna. The thunderbolt which I receive has a type F connector and the thunderbolt manual suggest using 75 ohm rg59 cable. Will I have a problem connecting the thunderbolt to the smartsplitter using LRM400 50 ohm cable? The thunderbolt which I received came with a type f to bnc connector, but isn't a bnc connector underrated to handle the 1.5 GHz signal? Thanks, Jeff ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A ThunderBolt USING SAME ANTENNA?
If the cable is long enough, the discontinuities brought by using a BNC connector should not be too much of a problem, unless you are trying to extract the very last ounce of performance from the Thunderbolt. A long cable will have significant attenuation, and that will absorb most of the reflections caused by the impedance mismatch and bring them down to the noise level. This subject has been covered at length not very long ago (a few months?), so a look through the archives might bring back the thread. You might want to read the Thunderbolt manual to get Trimble's official position on the subject. Trimble has done a good job of confusing people by specifying their equipment for 50 ohm operation but recommending 75 ohm cable and using F connectors on the Thunderbolt and the Bullet antenna. I surmise that for the Thunderbolt's intended application (cell site synchronization), the difference was not worth worrying about. For the true Time-Nuts, that may not be good enough. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jshank Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801A ThunderBolt USING SAME ANTENNA? Hi, I am trying to set up a Z3801A and a ThunderBolt to operate off of one symmetricom 58532A antenna using a symmetricom 4-port smartsplitter. The Z3801A manual suggest using LMR 400 cable which is a 50 ohm cable which is compatible with the antenna. The thunderbolt which I receive has a type F connector and the thunderbolt manual suggest using 75 ohm rg59 cable. Will I have a problem connecting the thunderbolt to the smartsplitter using LRM400 50 ohm cable? The thunderbolt which I received came with a type f to bnc connector, but isn't a bnc connector underrated to handle the 1.5 GHz signal? Thanks, Jeff ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay
Sorry to pollute the list but some people here may be interested and I think this might be a good buy. Ebay item 250268030266 a bunch of 10811-60158 wrapped up in a second oven that have been pulled from a bunch of HP 58503A. There are 21 units available at US$50 Buy It Now. Postage seems reasonable too. I've bought one and so if anyone knows where I can get the cabling requirements please let me know. Regards, Jim Palfreyman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt and USB to RS232 converters
On Monday 07 July 2008 02:10:35 am David Smith wrote: I'm aware of those, but the next new USB serial device you plug in will still be the next higher number. It is the counter for this number I've not been able to locate. I've just sorted this problem on another thing I was doing, although I was only up to COM14! It seems there are hidden hidden devices. Have a look at this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315539 Been There Done That, some time ago, but thanks for reminding me. I want to get all of these tips on my website related to this USB COM port saga. Note that even plugging the same USB-RS232 converter into another USB port on a hub will create a new COM port. I've dug into it enough that I understand why, but I'm still looking for where that new COM port number is coming from. Still trying to find that counter. -- http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.unusualresearch.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A ThunderBolt USING SAME ANTENNA?
jshank wrote: Bruce, Do I need to spend the extra $ for LMR400 cable or could I just use rg58 for a total run of 60 feet. Jeff Jeff A conservative approach would be to use a cable that has an attenuation of no more than 10dB (the attenuation of the cable supplied in the Trimble Thunderbolt starter kit). For standard RG58 this can mean no more than about 30ft. This only applies if the antenna preamp gain is similar to that of the Trimble bullet antenna. _Minimum Antenna gain for Thunderbolt_ http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-30908/Product Bullentin 200213.pdf http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-30908/Product%20Bullentin%20200213.pdf Above link specifies a minimum of 20dB gain at Thunderbolt input. Thus with 23 dBattenuation (cable plus active splitter) you would need to use an antenna with at least 43dB gain preferably a little more. With 10dB of cable attenuation and 3dB maximum splitter loss the antenna preamp gain should be at least 33dB. The 5V Bullet III antenna has 35dB gain and thus allows a maximum attenuation (cable plus splitter) of about 15dB, preferably a little less, when used with a Thunderbolt. GPS Timing antennas with higher gains (50dB) are available. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Power Question
An earlier question concerned whether the Thunderbolt could be put into battery backup mode without the -12V supply. The definitive answer is NO! The Thunderbolt OCXO is controlled via a DAC voltage that can range from -5V to 5V (the standard oscillator control is -5Hz/V. All mine are operating at around 0.35V). The -5V DAC reference depends upon the -12V input supply. Also the Thunderbolt monitors all three supply voltages and it will throw a critical alarm condition when any are out of whack. _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
