[time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2)
Hi, Well, still not strictly, strictly true ! In Ku K band earth stations I've worked in, I've never seen shoulder screws used, although the equipment used was mainnly from the USA. Next to you precision adaptors, SMA torque wrenches etc in your personal goodie box are sets of tapered pins, about 35-40mm long - that fit various diameter WG mounting holes (the old metric vvs Imperial issue again). You insert a pair of pins on diagonal corners then add bog-standard SS hardware to the opposite diagonals tighten. The tapered pins are then removed and replaced with another pair of screws/nuts. This ensures absolute (?) internal WG slot alignment. There are a few variations on this theme if you must have absolutely minimum RL within that section of guide or if one guide face is threaded. Hex-headed bolts are usually used. That may explain why shouldered bolts are seldom seen. Tapered WG pins fall into the 99.% unobtainium class of materials. Kit VK2LL -- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 10:15:17 + (GMT) From: Robert Atkinson robert8...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Semi-OT: Hardware for WR-90 waveguide sections? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 414785.76181...@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, Not strictly true. Material is not important apart from environmental (corrosion) issues, but that is not the only concern. WG-16 (British) / WR 90 flanges are not dowelled. They rely on the fastners for alignment. The correct fastners are 5/32 shoulder screws (0.1557 dia 6-32 thread). snip ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT: xtal osc PN
Hi Frank, SM5BSZ has interesting article about measuring low PN oscillators. http://www.sm5bsz.com/osc/osc-design.htm He also describes there his NEWREF which achieved -179.5 dBc/Hz. You could use it as practical design example. Regards, Piotr, sp3ukk On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com wrote: Frank - DBMs are extremely cheap in the frequency range you are talking about. The rest, well, you just have to try. I think you are way overcomplicating this. I am still not sure why you feel you need a xtal filter. It is not going to help with the 100 Hz away stuff. Using simple BJTs common base configuration would give you more than enough isolation for what you are doing. Besides, I believe you will only be using one output at any given time. Sounds like you need to experiment and learn. Else just do it and see what you get. That is what all of us did when we needed something special, and then that way learned what to do and what not. As I said, nothing about your approach seems magical or even difficult. I have been a ham for almost 50 years. While in HS everything I built worked just fine. The more education I received the greater my expectations became, however, it did not need to over complicate matters. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of francesco messineo Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: xtal osc PN Hi Mike, On 9/19/10, Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com wrote: Frank - Great idea, so obvious I did not think of it. If you mix the 20 and 22 you will only get 3 dB degradation or still very close to the -131 dBc/Hz relative to the 10811A. As I mentioned before the architecture is relevant. I have found that mixing does not cause any noticeable degradation, and I used to go all the way up to 45 GHz on military programs where it was very critical. At the frequencies you are talking about I doubt if the amplifiers will have any appreciable degradation either. Of course you have to keep levels in perspective, as you will not do better than kT. I also do not believe that dividers will have much impact. After all, a DDS is a divider/counter and accumulator, and PN is usually considered to be very close to 20logN better at the output than the reference, however, DDS does have spurious at most frequencies, but that is a discussion for another time. I still think your original thought is your best approach. Fast, easy and less than $100, even if you do use a used 10811A. 73 - Mike this approach as I said has a lot of unkown to me, for example, how to divide by 5 (ttl or cmos or maybe synchronous or something else?), then there's the doubler (diodes? jfet?), then the mixers: need them to be diode mixers (a classic double balanced? can be homebrewed or better use ready-made?) or I can get away with something cheaper like fet mixer or something else? Finally the xtal filters, those need to be ordered, where? what exactly do I need as filter here in terms of poles or number of xtals? Not to mention I need to reuse many of the signals, this means a few isolation amplifiers with good isolation. After posing myself these questions I thought I might evaluate other approaches :-) Best regards Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT: xtal osc PN
Hi Piotr, many thanks for the link, I didn't know that page! Best regards Frank IZ8DWF On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Piotr Kolodziejczyk sp3...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Frank, SM5BSZ has interesting article about measuring low PN oscillators. http://www.sm5bsz.com/osc/osc-design.htm He also describes there his NEWREF which achieved -179.5 dBc/Hz. You could use it as practical design example. Regards, Piotr, sp3ukk On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com wrote: Frank - DBMs are extremely cheap in the frequency range you are talking about. The rest, well, you just have to try. I think you are way overcomplicating this. I am still not sure why you feel you need a xtal filter. It is not going to help with the 100 Hz away stuff. Using simple BJTs common base configuration would give you more than enough isolation for what you are doing. Besides, I believe you will only be using one output at any given time. Sounds like you need to experiment and learn. Else just do it and see what you get. That is what all of us did when we needed something special, and then that way learned what to do and what not. As I said, nothing about your approach seems magical or even difficult. I have been a ham for almost 50 years. While in HS everything I built worked just fine. The more education I received the greater my expectations became, however, it did not need to over complicate matters. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of francesco messineo Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: xtal osc PN Hi Mike, On 9/19/10, Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com wrote: Frank - Great idea, so obvious I did not think of it. If you mix the 20 and 22 you will only get 3 dB degradation or still very close to the -131 dBc/Hz relative to the 10811A. As I mentioned before the architecture is relevant. I have found that mixing does not cause any noticeable degradation, and I used to go all the way up to 45 GHz on military programs where it was very critical. At the frequencies you are talking about I doubt if the amplifiers will have any appreciable degradation either. Of course you have to keep levels in perspective, as you will not do better than kT. I also do not believe that dividers will have much impact. After all, a DDS is a divider/counter and accumulator, and PN is usually considered to be very close to 20logN better at the output than the reference, however, DDS does have spurious at most frequencies, but that is a discussion for another time. I still think your original thought is your best approach. Fast, easy and less than $100, even if you do use a used 10811A. 73 - Mike this approach as I said has a lot of unkown to me, for example, how to divide by 5 (ttl or cmos or maybe synchronous or something else?), then there's the doubler (diodes? jfet?), then the mixers: need them to be diode mixers (a classic double balanced? can be homebrewed or better use ready-made?) or I can get away with something cheaper like fet mixer or something else? Finally the xtal filters, those need to be ordered, where? what exactly do I need as filter here in terms of poles or number of xtals? Not to mention I need to reuse many of the signals, this means a few isolation amplifiers with good isolation. After posing myself these questions I thought I might evaluate other approaches :-) Best regards Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out?
Between Tboltmon and Ladyheather, you'll see that your unit either works or it doesn't. My bet is that it will work just fine, even if the antenna is indoors- and then you won't be able to stop watching it (esp. with lady heather) for at least a few hours... Have fun! Dave - Original Message - From: russell rstanph...@austin.rr.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:47:54 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out? This is my first attempt at having a time reference for my home lab. I have recently ordered a pulled / untested Tbolt (board in box wo/ power supply) from ebay. It has a 5 day right to return if non functional. While waiting to receive the unit, I have been getting things ready here (antenna, power supplies w/ connector, and TboltMon). My question. Is there a check out procedure or list of things that I can test quickly to determine if I have received a functional unit with a decent oscillator? I just want to make sure I have not been sent a dud. Longer term I can read more, learn, monitor and tweak its performance. I am only trying to make sure I have a good platform to start with. Thanks for you advice / comments. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out?
Hello, On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:21 PM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: Between Tboltmon and Ladyheather, you'll see that your unit either works or it doesn't. My bet is that it will work just fine, even if the antenna is indoors- and then you won't be able to stop watching it (esp. with lady heather) for at least a few hours... Have fun! well, this is not entirely true. I once witnessed a tbolt that partially worked, it wasn't able to save the position so it needed to do a self survey at each power down and the temperature sensor appeared also not working as it reported always the same (improbable) temperature. It also wouldn't save any parameter different from a factory default. 10 MHz output and pps were present. The vendor sent a replacement unit by the way. Just for the record anyway... best regards Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out?
Go with Lady Heather. Install it using John's files (from http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/heather/readme.htm), and use the 3.0 Beta code -- it's far more solid than the production code shipped by a lot of vendors. One of the really great things that happens when you install it is that you get a shortcut to a Tbolt at John's place. You can double-click on that icon and see a working Tbolt! A lot of the parameters are going to look different, but you can get a look at one that's working. If you're serious about this (you'll know in a few hours) I recommend setting up Lady Heather in its client/server mode, even if you think you're only going to be running it for yourself. This is described in the documentation; as mentioned earlier the most complex part may be figuring out which COM port you're on. A big advantage to the server-client setup is that you can ask a Thunderbolt Wizard (such as Warren) to take a look at it, opine on its qualities, and give you insightful and useful suggestions for getting the most out of your particular beast. You can also check in on it remotely. Yes, this requires punching a hole in your firewall. Hopefully you're using a (hardware) stateful firewall such as in a stand-alone router or switch, in addition to the Windows firewall. (a different approach is to allow ssh or other secure tunnel into the box and use a tool such as VNC). Have fun! There's a wealth of information (and opinion) in the archives. 73 Bob K6RTM - Original Message - From: russell rstanph...@austin.rr.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:47:54 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out? This is my first attempt at having a time reference for my home lab. I have recently ordered a pulled / untested Tbolt (board in box wo/ power supply) from ebay. It has a 5 day right to return if non functional. While waiting to receive the unit, I have been getting things ready here (antenna, power supplies w/ connector, and TboltMon). My question. Is there a check out procedure or list of things that I can test quickly to determine if I have received a functional unit with a decent oscillator? I just want to make sure I have not been sent a dud. Longer term I can read more, learn, monitor and tweak its performance. I am only trying to make sure I have a good platform to start with. Thanks for you advice / comments. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:31:09 +0200 From: francesco messineo francesco.messi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt initial check out? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: aanlktimqjxpyhxrref3xsx03rhg_b35b9qop_efdy...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello, On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:21 PM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: Between Tboltmon and Ladyheather, you'll see that your unit either works or it doesn't. My bet is that it will work just fine, even if the antenna is indoors- and then you won't be able to stop watching it (esp. with lady heather) for at least a few hours... Have fun! well, this is not entirely true. I once witnessed a tbolt that partially worked, it wasn't able to save the position so it needed to do a self survey at each power down and the temperature sensor appeared also not working as it reported always the same (improbable) temperature. It also wouldn't save any parameter different from a factory default. 10 MHz output and pps were present. The vendor sent a replacement unit by the way. Just for the record anyway... best regards Frank -- ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 74, Issue 90 * ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2)
Another mystery solved! My (late) father-in-law spent most of his career at Varian-Eimac, mostly working on TWTs, BWOs, and the occasional magnetron. In one batch of his goodies, along with the HS SMA torque wrench, was a little box with some tapered metal pins! I've wondered what those were for, and now I know! He was very happy when his daughter brought home someone who knew what vacuum tubes were, even if he did think that the RF work I did as a ham, even the 144 and 440 MHz stuff, was still practically DC... Bob K6RTM -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 08:19:25 + From: Kit Scally ksca...@bytecan.com.au Subject: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2) To: time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 2ab674d4b0c99d4ca524e8530ba1b87c08dc5...@msg02nsw.bytecan.com.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Well, still not strictly, strictly true ! In Ku K band earth stations I've worked in, I've never seen shoulder screws used, although the equipment used was mainnly from the USA. Next to you precision adaptors, SMA torque wrenches etc in your personal goodie box are sets of tapered pins, about 35-40mm long - that fit various diameter WG mounting holes (the old metric vvs Imperial issue again). You insert a pair of pins on diagonal corners then add bog-standard SS hardware to the opposite diagonals tighten. The tapered pins are then removed and replaced with another pair of screws/nuts. This ensures absolute (?) internal WG slot alignment. There are a few variations on this theme if you must have absolutely minimum RL within that section of guide or if one guide face is threaded. Hex-headed bolts are usually used. That may explain why shouldered bolts are seldom seen. Tapered WG pins fall into the 99.% unobtainium class of materials. Kit VK2LL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2)
I'm not so sure the alignment pins are unobtanium. I think they are just common Taper Pins: http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?st=TAPER+PINpid=0aitm=GLH-503apid=0bi= -John == Another mystery solved! My (late) father-in-law spent most of his career at Varian-Eimac, mostly working on TWTs, BWOs, and the occasional magnetron. In one batch of his goodies, along with the HS SMA torque wrench, was a little box with some tapered metal pins! I've wondered what those were for, and now I know! He was very happy when his daughter brought home someone who knew what vacuum tubes were, even if he did think that the RF work I did as a ham, even the 144 and 440 MHz stuff, was still practically DC... Bob K6RTM -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 08:19:25 + From: Kit Scally ksca...@bytecan.com.au Subject: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2) To: time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 2ab674d4b0c99d4ca524e8530ba1b87c08dc5...@msg02nsw.bytecan.com.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Well, still not strictly, strictly true ! In Ku K band earth stations I've worked in, I've never seen shoulder screws used, although the equipment used was mainnly from the USA. Next to you precision adaptors, SMA torque wrenches etc in your personal goodie box are sets of tapered pins, about 35-40mm long - that fit various diameter WG mounting holes (the old metric vvs Imperial issue again). You insert a pair of pins on diagonal corners then add bog-standard SS hardware to the opposite diagonals tighten. The tapered pins are then removed and replaced with another pair of screws/nuts. This ensures absolute (?) internal WG slot alignment. There are a few variations on this theme if you must have absolutely minimum RL within that section of guide or if one guide face is threaded. Hex-headed bolts are usually used. That may explain why shouldered bolts are seldom seen. Tapered WG pins fall into the 99.% unobtainium class of materials. Kit VK2LL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2)
I think you are a snip too soon. My original post said If you have to use screws, at least align two diagonal holes with 5/32 dowels while nipping up the first two screws. Taper pins are also OK of the taper is slight and flanges are not too thick. Don't tighten the first two screws too tight at first to aviod warping the flange. In aircraft installations I've designed have used shoulder screws because they were specified by the equipment manufacturer. Robert G8RPI. --- On Mon, 20/9/10, Kit Scally ksca...@bytecan.com.au wrote: From: Kit Scally ksca...@bytecan.com.au Subject: [time-nuts] WG mounting h/w (2) To: time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 20 September, 2010, 9:19 Hi, Well, still not strictly, strictly true ! In Ku K band earth stations I've worked in, I've never seen shoulder screws used, although the equipment used was mainnly from the USA. Next to you precision adaptors, SMA torque wrenches etc in your personal goodie box are sets of tapered pins, about 35-40mm long - that fit various diameter WG mounting holes (the old metric vvs Imperial issue again). You insert a pair of pins on diagonal corners then add bog-standard SS hardware to the opposite diagonals tighten. The tapered pins are then removed and replaced with another pair of screws/nuts. This ensures absolute (?) internal WG slot alignment. There are a few variations on this theme if you must have absolutely minimum RL within that section of guide or if one guide face is threaded. Hex-headed bolts are usually used. That may explain why shouldered bolts are seldom seen. Tapered WG pins fall into the 99.% unobtainium class of materials. Kit VK2LL -- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 10:15:17 + (GMT) From: Robert Atkinson robert8...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Semi-OT: Hardware for WR-90 waveguide sections? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 414785.76181...@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, Not strictly true. Material is not important apart from environmental (corrosion) issues, but that is not the only concern. WG-16 (British) / WR 90 flanges are not dowelled. They rely on the fastners for alignment. The correct fastners are 5/32 shoulder screws (0.1557 dia 6-32 thread). snip ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] CIL/MATE to GPIB?
On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 07:41 -0700, Dan Rae wrote: On 9/9/2010 7:03 AM, p...@pseng.org.uk wrote: I'll second the thanks to EADS (and David). I too used too look for support for older equipment when buying for day job. Currently struggling with opt55M ie the miltary coding CIL/MATE etc for a stack of 6 1991's for TI use. Any pointers on using CIL/MATE would be much appreciated. Phil, I'm pretty sure there's a link that you can move inside to convert these to standard gpib, at least in the 1992 there was. This was covered in the past here I think. Have you checked the archives? Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
