Re: [time-nuts] Hyperterminal with variable baud rate

2010-11-22 Thread Joop
A friend of mine had a need for a round 500Kbit baud rate. What he did
was use some FDTI USB/RS232 chip.
He could patch the timing values for an existing baud rate (300 baud or
something else normally not used). I believe in the Windows registry.

This way the (terminal) software can select the patched baud rate and
it will in effect behave as the custom baud rate.

Cheers,
Joop

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Re: [time-nuts] DMTD for different input frequencies

2010-11-22 Thread Oz, in DFW
On 11/14/2010 12:08 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
 In the first stage, the input signals is mixed by the average
 frequency (37 MHz in this case) causing the beat frequencies to become
 roughly the same (27 MHz in this case). The second stage would then
 act as as the normal offset local oscillator and beat-frequency mix-down. 
Magnus,

I'm writing you directly because I want to avoid a nitpicking flame war
or I agree with your math, but your nomenclature seems a bit confusing. 
The arithmetic mean or average is 27 Mhz.  It seems that for  the
general case is the local oscillator is the arithmetic mean plus the
lower frequency.  You want to have high side injection for the low
frequency and low side injection for the high frequency.

I'd call the average frequency the intermediate frequency and define
it as the arithmetic mean of the two frequencies of interest, because it
literally is and because it conforms to common use for superheterodyne
receivers.  Likewise I'd call the injection the first local oscillator
or first injection and define it as the intermediate frequency plus or
minus the frequencies of interest for comparison.  The normal DMTD
oscillator could then be called the second local oscillator or second
injection

One side effect of this approach is that common mode variations on the
oscillators being compared will either be enhanced or reduced because
those effects are inverted in frequency for the lower frequency.  I
haven't run the math to prove this, but it looks like it'll be
proportional to the ratio of their frequencies. 

I need to think more about the impact of variations between the first
and second LOs. 

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 







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Re: [time-nuts] DMTD for different input frequencies

2010-11-22 Thread Oz, in DFW
On 11/22/2010 7:22 AM, Oz, in DFW wrote:
 On 11/14/2010 12:08 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
 In the first stage, the input signals is mixed by the
 Magnus,

 I'm writing you directly because I want to avoid a nitpicking flame war

Well, apparently I screwed up and didn't write you directly. 

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 







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Re: [time-nuts] Hyperterminal with variable baud rate

2010-11-22 Thread Oz, in DFW
On 11/18/2010 2:32 PM, Elio Corbolante wrote:
 From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net
 Are there any terminal programs out there that allow you to select rates 
 other than the standard values?
 You can use the wonderful Tera Term (http://ttssh2.sourceforge.jp/):
 it accepts nonstandard values in the speed parameter.
 I verified it with an oscilloscope.

 _  Elio.
PuTTY has a serial mode that does this as well.  As long as the rate is
115200 divided by an integer, it works.

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 







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[time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread Ulrich Bangert
Gentlemen,

I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another try:

Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he can
share with me?

Best regards

Ulrich Bangert
www.ulrich-bangert.de
Ortholzer Weg 1
27243 Gross Ippener 


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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread paul swed
I have the manual and a working FS700 now. Maybe able to copy several pages.
Need to find a scanner for 11X14, and not sure when I can do that.
What problem are you having and perhaps we should take this offline.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL


On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangert df...@ulrich-bangert.dewrote:

 Gentlemen,

 I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another
 try:

 Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he can
 share with me?

 Best regards

 Ulrich Bangert
 www.ulrich-bangert.de
 Ortholzer Weg 1
 27243 Gross Ippener


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Re: [time-nuts] Changing frequency of an HP 10811 oscillator

2010-11-22 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist

Several issues here:

1.  Making a precision crystal like the 10811 one is very involved.
It cannot simply be rescaled to a different frequency.  It represents
a whole new design.  This is not like ordering custom crystals for
your 2 way radio (back in the day).

2.  The 10.23 MHz crystals I am going to give away (as time permits :-)
were designed under duress by the crystal designers who did not want
any part of the operation.  That's why I have a box of the crystals,
since the project died.  Expect a similar welcome from crystal vendors.

3.  Many years ago, it may have made sense to have 10.23 MHz GPS
time base oscillators.  Nowaways, it is much easier to synthesize
frequencies and you don't see this any more.  Everthing starts with 10 MHz.

4.  If you need 20. MHz, then use a doubler as others have noted.
If you need some random frequency, use frequency synthesis.

5.  The 10811 crystal is in a custom can, and you would have to kluge
in any different crystal package.  This would probably screw up the
oven gain, necessitating rebalancing the heater transistors.

Summary:  (to use a technical term:)  fuggedaboudit

Rick Karlquist N6RK

On 11/21/2010 10:32 AM, Demian Martin wrote:

Having seen the note on alternate crystals for the HP10811 oscillator I was
wondering if its realistically possible to re-crystal one to frequencies in
the 20 MHz range? Some other components may need to be changed of course but
is this worthwhile exploring? Who would be a good vendor for a few custom SC
crystals that would work in an HP10811? I have been quoted prices in the
$500+ range for finished products and want to explore a more cost effective
option before I spend a lot of money.



Demian Martin

Product Design Services

San Leandro, CA 94577

209 613 6990



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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread EB4APL

Paul,

You can do it in a common scanner in two parts, then using any graphics 
editor (i.e. Photoshop) rotate one of the files until they match and 
paste both.  I do it routinelly with all my oversize schematics.  Or 
just scan and let someone do the assembly (I can volunteer for some).


Regards,
Ignacio, EB4APL

El 22/11/2010 17:37, paul swed wrote:

I have the manual and a working FS700 now. Maybe able to copy several pages.
Need to find a scanner for 11X14, and not sure when I can do that.
What problem are you having and perhaps we should take this offline.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL


On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangertdf...@ulrich-bangert.dewrote:


Gentlemen,

I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another
try:

Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he can
share with me?

Best regards

Ulrich Bangert
www.ulrich-bangert.de
Ortholzer Weg 1
27243 Gross Ippener


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Re: [time-nuts] Changing frequency of an HP 10811 oscillator

2010-11-22 Thread J. Forster
I have a 10.23 MHz 10811 oscillator out of an early GPS simulator
somewhere, so, FWIW, HP did make at least one. I remember it because I was
disappointed it was not 10.000 or 10.24 MHz.

Best,

-John

=


 Several issues here:

 1.  Making a precision crystal like the 10811 one is very involved.
 It cannot simply be rescaled to a different frequency.  It represents
 a whole new design.  This is not like ordering custom crystals for
 your 2 way radio (back in the day).

 2.  The 10.23 MHz crystals I am going to give away (as time permits :-)
 were designed under duress by the crystal designers who did not want
 any part of the operation.  That's why I have a box of the crystals,
 since the project died.  Expect a similar welcome from crystal vendors.

 3.  Many years ago, it may have made sense to have 10.23 MHz GPS
 time base oscillators.  Nowaways, it is much easier to synthesize
 frequencies and you don't see this any more.  Everthing starts with 10
 MHz.

 4.  If you need 20. MHz, then use a doubler as others have noted.
 If you need some random frequency, use frequency synthesis.

 5.  The 10811 crystal is in a custom can, and you would have to kluge
 in any different crystal package.  This would probably screw up the
 oven gain, necessitating rebalancing the heater transistors.

 Summary:  (to use a technical term:)  fuggedaboudit

 Rick Karlquist N6RK

 On 11/21/2010 10:32 AM, Demian Martin wrote:
 Having seen the note on alternate crystals for the HP10811 oscillator I
 was
 wondering if its realistically possible to re-crystal one to frequencies
 in
 the 20 MHz range? Some other components may need to be changed of course
 but
 is this worthwhile exploring? Who would be a good vendor for a few
 custom SC
 crystals that would work in an HP10811? I have been quoted prices in the
 $500+ range for finished products and want to explore a more cost
 effective
 option before I spend a lot of money.



 Demian Martin

 Product Design Services

 San Leandro, CA 94577

 209 613 6990



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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread Ulrich Bangert
Paul,

I just received an answer fom TVB. Before you engage in any kind of business
concerning the copies let us wait whether Tom has the schematics.

73s de Ulrich, DF6JB

 -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
 Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
 [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von paul swed
 Gesendet: Montag, 22. November 2010 17:38
 An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic
 
 
 I have the manual and a working FS700 now. Maybe able to copy 
 several pages. Need to find a scanner for 11X14, and not sure 
 when I can do that. What problem are you having and perhaps 
 we should take this offline. Regards Paul. WB8TSL
 
 
 On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangert 
 df...@ulrich-bangert.dewrote:
 
  Gentlemen,
 
  I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it 
  another
  try:
 
  Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic 
 available that 
  he can share with me?
 
  Best regards
 
  Ulrich Bangert
  www.ulrich-bangert.de
  Ortholzer Weg 1
  27243 Gross Ippener
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread Stan, W1LE

It is not just one page.   What are you specifically looking for ?
Most sheets are B size ( double A size).

I got the complete manual from SRS for ~35$

Stan, W1LE


On 11/22/2010 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote:

Gentlemen,

I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another try:

Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he can
share with me?

Best regards

Ulrich Bangert
www.ulrich-bangert.de
Ortholzer Weg 1
27243 Gross Ippener


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[time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

2010-11-22 Thread John Green
Given that this is an extremely sensitive topic and completely illegal
also, let me just state at the outset that I have no interest in
jamming anyone's GPS. A while back, I was looking at one of those
Chinese discount electronics websites, I'm sure we all have, and
noticed a GPS jammer for sale. I had been wanting to do some jamming
susceptibility testing for quite some time but had never got around to
building a generator to test with. The thing was cheap so I ordered
it. After it arrived, I opened it up, first thing, to see how it was
made. It has a dual 555 oscillator, a couple of analog switches, a 1.9
GHz VCO, a single amplifier. It doesn't look capable of putting out
more than 50 milliwatts or so into a 2 inch antenna. I was somewhat
dubious that it would do anything, so I took it to the bench where the
Z3801 lives and turned it on. Within 2 seconds, the holdover LED lit.
I immediately turned it off and within a few more seconds, the
holdover LED was back off. The GPS antenna is perhaps 35 feet away
with a cinder block wall, a brick wall, and a metal roof in between. I
also put a 15 Db attenuator between it and the antenna with almost the
same result. I am going to do more testing with it wired into the GPS
downfeed an an adjustable attenuator in line just to see how much
signal it takes. That way, there will be little danger of messing with
anyone's reception. It is just a simple sweeper so it must do its job
by brute force. I am amazed that it took so little to shut my Z3801
down. Has anyone here had any actual experience testing GPS receivers
for susceptibility?

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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread paul swed
My thats a reasonable answer indeed.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net wrote:

 It is not just one page.   What are you specifically looking for ?
 Most sheets are B size ( double A size).

 I got the complete manual from SRS for ~35$

 Stan, W1LE



 On 11/22/2010 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote:

 Gentlemen,

 I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another
 try:

 Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he
 can
 share with me?

 Best regards

 Ulrich Bangert
 www.ulrich-bangert.de
 Ortholzer Weg 1
 27243 Gross Ippener


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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] FS700 schematic

2010-11-22 Thread paul swed
Looked at the schematics front end is simple. Essentially op amps notch
filters and most important electronic selectable attenuators. Any of it
could cause issues. But the good news is a amplified loran signal is on the
back of the unit so you could look to see whats happening to the signal.
Oh other big point.
If you are using something different then an active antennathat draws
current. You need a 470 ohm resistor to ground at the antenna bnc.The system
sense current being drawn both high and low.
Regards
Paul.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 1:46 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 My thats a reasonable answer indeed.


 On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Stan, W1LE stanw...@verizon.net wrote:

 It is not just one page.   What are you specifically looking for ?
 Most sheets are B size ( double A size).

 I got the complete manual from SRS for ~35$

 Stan, W1LE



 On 11/22/2010 10:00 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote:

 Gentlemen,

 I know this one has been asked a few years before but I give it another
 try:

 Has anyone of you a Stanford Research FS700 schematic available that he
 can
 share with me?

 Best regards

 Ulrich Bangert
 www.ulrich-bangert.de
 Ortholzer Weg 1
 27243 Gross Ippener


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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

2010-11-22 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

There is *very* little signal hitting the ground from a normal GPS bird. Even a 
few mili watts close at hand is going to be an enormous overload. The typical 
GPS does not use a lot of bits in the front end A/D. 

I suspect that if you tuned your little gizmo down to the FM broadcast band, it 
would take out your favorite FM station quite nicely. Same would be true of 
your cell phone if you tuned it there. Jamming from close by isn't all that 
hard to figure out, or to implement. There are switching power supplies that 
make wonderful jammers for low frequency signals. If it's RF, it can be jammed. 
The real question is can you jam it from a reasonable distance? 

Bob


On Nov 22, 2010, at 12:43 PM, John Green wrote:

 Given that this is an extremely sensitive topic and completely illegal
 also, let me just state at the outset that I have no interest in
 jamming anyone's GPS. A while back, I was looking at one of those
 Chinese discount electronics websites, I'm sure we all have, and
 noticed a GPS jammer for sale. I had been wanting to do some jamming
 susceptibility testing for quite some time but had never got around to
 building a generator to test with. The thing was cheap so I ordered
 it. After it arrived, I opened it up, first thing, to see how it was
 made. It has a dual 555 oscillator, a couple of analog switches, a 1.9
 GHz VCO, a single amplifier. It doesn't look capable of putting out
 more than 50 milliwatts or so into a 2 inch antenna. I was somewhat
 dubious that it would do anything, so I took it to the bench where the
 Z3801 lives and turned it on. Within 2 seconds, the holdover LED lit.
 I immediately turned it off and within a few more seconds, the
 holdover LED was back off. The GPS antenna is perhaps 35 feet away
 with a cinder block wall, a brick wall, and a metal roof in between. I
 also put a 15 Db attenuator between it and the antenna with almost the
 same result. I am going to do more testing with it wired into the GPS
 downfeed an an adjustable attenuator in line just to see how much
 signal it takes. That way, there will be little danger of messing with
 anyone's reception. It is just a simple sweeper so it must do its job
 by brute force. I am amazed that it took so little to shut my Z3801
 down. Has anyone here had any actual experience testing GPS receivers
 for susceptibility?
 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

2010-11-22 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 11/23/2010 12:19 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

There is *very* little signal hitting the ground from a normal GPS bird. Even a 
few mili watts close at hand is going to be an enormous overload. The typical 
GPS does not use a lot of bits in the front end A/D.

I suspect that if you tuned your little gizmo down to the FM broadcast band, it 
would take out your favorite FM station quite nicely. Same would be true of 
your cell phone if you tuned it there. Jamming from close by isn't all that 
hard to figure out, or to implement. There are switching power supplies that 
make wonderful jammers for low frequency signals. If it's RF, it can be jammed. 
The real question is can you jam it from a reasonable distance?


There are a few reports and articles going into the susceptibility of 
civilian receivers to jammers. Some public texts have also been written, 
so the field is not completely covered only on green paper.


A CW jammer will basically grab the AGC and as it gains down the CW the 
GPS reception is gained down with it. In particular 1-bit receivers is 
susceptable to this effect. 1,5-bit receivers with separate AGC 
detection was developed and was able to combat the CW jammer situation.
The relative time when the code can control the bits quickly becomes 
just a fraction since a sine spends long times in the extremes far away 
from detection limits.


Next thing to attack is lack of supression in the C/A code, and list of 
offset-frequencies which is more susceptible can be found.


Noise jammers is also possible.

Things like these alongside the weak signal makes civilian receivers 
quite sensitive, so quite a bit of line-of-sight distance can be jammed 
with a fairly low output.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

2010-11-22 Thread scmcgrath
The Phrack article's jammer attacks the offset frequencies.

Phrack.org/issues.html?issue=60id=13

This article shows just how vulnerable L1 GPS is

Scott
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 01:29:56 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

On 11/23/2010 12:19 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 There is *very* little signal hitting the ground from a normal GPS bird. Even 
 a few mili watts close at hand is going to be an enormous overload. The 
 typical GPS does not use a lot of bits in the front end A/D.

 I suspect that if you tuned your little gizmo down to the FM broadcast band, 
 it would take out your favorite FM station quite nicely. Same would be true 
 of your cell phone if you tuned it there. Jamming from close by isn't all 
 that hard to figure out, or to implement. There are switching power supplies 
 that make wonderful jammers for low frequency signals. If it's RF, it can be 
 jammed. The real question is can you jam it from a reasonable distance?

There are a few reports and articles going into the susceptibility of 
civilian receivers to jammers. Some public texts have also been written, 
so the field is not completely covered only on green paper.

A CW jammer will basically grab the AGC and as it gains down the CW the 
GPS reception is gained down with it. In particular 1-bit receivers is 
susceptable to this effect. 1,5-bit receivers with separate AGC 
detection was developed and was able to combat the CW jammer situation.
The relative time when the code can control the bits quickly becomes 
just a fraction since a sine spends long times in the extremes far away 
from detection limits.

Next thing to attack is lack of supression in the C/A code, and list of 
offset-frequencies which is more susceptible can be found.

Noise jammers is also possible.

Things like these alongside the weak signal makes civilian receivers 
quite sensitive, so quite a bit of line-of-sight distance can be jammed 
with a fairly low output.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility

2010-11-22 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

If you run through the article the author claims that he's getting a few 
hundred feet of range with a few hundred mw of power into a good antenna.

Your cell phone and FM broadcast radio are equally susceptible under typical 
conditions. 

Bob

On Nov 22, 2010, at 8:24 PM, scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Phrack article's jammer attacks the offset frequencies.
 
 Phrack.org/issues.html?issue=60id=13
 
 This article shows just how vulnerable L1 GPS is
 
 Scott
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 01:29:56 
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
   time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility
 
 On 11/23/2010 12:19 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 There is *very* little signal hitting the ground from a normal GPS bird. 
 Even a few mili watts close at hand is going to be an enormous overload. The 
 typical GPS does not use a lot of bits in the front end A/D.
 
 I suspect that if you tuned your little gizmo down to the FM broadcast band, 
 it would take out your favorite FM station quite nicely. Same would be true 
 of your cell phone if you tuned it there. Jamming from close by isn't all 
 that hard to figure out, or to implement. There are switching power supplies 
 that make wonderful jammers for low frequency signals. If it's RF, it can be 
 jammed. The real question is can you jam it from a reasonable distance?
 
 There are a few reports and articles going into the susceptibility of 
 civilian receivers to jammers. Some public texts have also been written, 
 so the field is not completely covered only on green paper.
 
 A CW jammer will basically grab the AGC and as it gains down the CW the 
 GPS reception is gained down with it. In particular 1-bit receivers is 
 susceptable to this effect. 1,5-bit receivers with separate AGC 
 detection was developed and was able to combat the CW jammer situation.
 The relative time when the code can control the bits quickly becomes 
 just a fraction since a sine spends long times in the extremes far away 
 from detection limits.
 
 Next thing to attack is lack of supression in the C/A code, and list of 
 offset-frequencies which is more susceptible can be found.
 
 Noise jammers is also possible.
 
 Things like these alongside the weak signal makes civilian receivers 
 quite sensitive, so quite a bit of line-of-sight distance can be jammed 
 with a fairly low output.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Hyperterminal with variable baud rate

2010-11-22 Thread Bob Paddock
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Corby Dawson cdel...@juno.com wrote:

 Are there any terminal programs out there that allow you to select rates
 other than the standard values?

https://sites.google.com/site/terminalbpp/

Select 'Custom'.

-- 
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http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/

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