Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems - no more please
Guys, enough already please!! Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2011, at 20:30, Jim Lux wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2011, at 17:48, "Don Latham" wrote: > >> I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by >> the French... >> Don >> > > Oh, those Cassinis > At least the English got the Prime Meridian out of the deal > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On Apr 5, 2011, at 17:48, "Don Latham" wrote: > I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by > the French... > Don > Oh, those Cassinis At least the English got the Prime Meridian out of the deal ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Proton Precession Magnetometer
> Hi, > I am boxing up my LPRO rubidium source in a steel box. The device is > to be thermostated > by controlling a small fan outside the box to keep the LPRO at about > 40*C. > Although the unit is in a mumetal box I assume there may be some > penetration of earths magnetic field. > The steel box should help that. > To test this I want to build a very stable magnetometer. Now I know > that all you need is a jar of water or kerosene > to give you protons, and a coil around the jar to kick the protons > and then listen to them sing. > I have also been told that these instruments do not work in a > laboratory, as the AC magnetic field > drives them crazy. > I am thinking of lock in amplifiers and phase locked loops. > Also toroidal coil or paired coils. > Can anyone in this group point me to an easy to construct and > fiercely accurate design to build? Check out Joe Geller's work ( http://www.gellerlabs.com/index.html ) and also Jim Koehler's ( http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=mag&file=/info/ko ehler/index.dat&zoom ). The May 2007 issue of Circuit Cellar had a shorter article by Jim. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
At 09:01 PM 4/5/2011, ehydra wrote... the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). That's historical. All of the original prefixes (from 1795) were lower case. When new ones extended the magnitudes (in 1960), capitalization was necessary to distinguish M(ega) from m(icro). They also chose to capitalize all higher order prefixes. Prefixes da, h, and k weren't capitalized to maintain backward consistency. I suppose they could have used "me" or "ma" as the prefix for mega, just as d(ek)a was originally used to distinguish it from d(eci), but then two character prefixes (or alternate, non-conflicting ones) would also be needed for P(eta)/p(ico), Z(etta)/z(epto), and Y(otta)/y(octo) when things were extended even further. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Proton Precession Magnetometer
There's an article in the may 2007 (issue 202) issue of circuit cellar on building a magnetometer that might be a good starting point. Sent from my Banana jr (tm) Mobile Device On Apr 5, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Neville Michie wrote: > Hi, > I am boxing up my LPRO rubidium source in a steel box. The device is to be > thermostated > by controlling a small fan outside the box to keep the LPRO at about 40*C. > Although the unit is in a mumetal box I assume there may be some penetration > of earths magnetic field. > The steel box should help that. > To test this I want to build a very stable magnetometer. Now I know that all > you need is a jar of water or kerosene > to give you protons, and a coil around the jar to kick the protons and then > listen to them sing. > I have also been told that these instruments do not work in a laboratory, as > the AC magnetic field > drives them crazy. > I am thinking of lock in amplifiers and phase locked loops. > Also toroidal coil or paired coils. > Can anyone in this group point me to an easy to construct and fiercely > accurate design to build? > > cheers, Neville Michie > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Proton Precession Magnetometer
Whats the required sensitivity? How much field strength (penetration) are you trying to measure? Brent On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:26 PM, Neville Michie wrote: > Hi, > I am boxing up my LPRO rubidium source in a steel box. The device is to be > thermostated > by controlling a small fan outside the box to keep the LPRO at about 40*C. > Although the unit is in a mumetal box I assume there may be some penetration > of earths magnetic field. > The steel box should help that. > To test this I want to build a very stable magnetometer. Now I know that all > you need is a jar of water or kerosene > to give you protons, and a coil around the jar to kick the protons and then > listen to them sing. > I have also been told that these instruments do not work in a laboratory, as > the AC magnetic field > drives them crazy. > I am thinking of lock in amplifiers and phase locked loops. > Also toroidal coil or paired coils. > Can anyone in this group point me to an easy to construct and fiercely > accurate design to build? > > cheers, Neville Michie > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
The number 6 and derivations thereof were presented to the world of science from the numerologists. Time was arranged as parts of a day, 24 hours 60 minutes per hour 60 seconds per minute. Very tenuous at best. I propose that we consider 100 seconds in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, and 10 hours in a day. People could handle that with an IPhone ap, right? Lets put an end to this nuber 6 nonsense. I admit that it will change a few constants here and there but then isnt it time for us to throw off the old numerology nonsense?? Greg On 4/5/2011 7:01 PM, ehydra wrote: I don't think that SI is the last system we see and that is for the decimal system too. I see small problems like the definiton of mass as units of 1000xgrams and that the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). But to think the american system is better must be a joke. Even the japanese changes all 40 years ago. S/N is now almost at -infinitum. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Proton Precession Magnetometer
Hi, I am boxing up my LPRO rubidium source in a steel box. The device is to be thermostated by controlling a small fan outside the box to keep the LPRO at about 40*C. Although the unit is in a mumetal box I assume there may be some penetration of earths magnetic field. The steel box should help that. To test this I want to build a very stable magnetometer. Now I know that all you need is a jar of water or kerosene to give you protons, and a coil around the jar to kick the protons and then listen to them sing. I have also been told that these instruments do not work in a laboratory, as the AC magnetic field drives them crazy. I am thinking of lock in amplifiers and phase locked loops. Also toroidal coil or paired coils. Can anyone in this group point me to an easy to construct and fiercely accurate design to build? cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I don't think that SI is the last system we see and that is for the decimal system too. I see small problems like the definiton of mass as units of 1000xgrams and that the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). But to think the american system is better must be a joke. Even the japanese changes all 40 years ago. S/N is now almost at -infinitum. - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info Don Latham schrieb: I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Wolfgang ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous "arguments" supposed to show that this system of units had holes. On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic Why exactly should hat arise when "following the rules of SI"? If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be constructed whenever you can replace numerical "1" with something else. Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = "seconds to the power of a negataive radiant" which clearly shows that SI units are utterly perverse! Wolfgang, DL1SKY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
At 08:43 PM 4/5/2011, Wolfgang wrote... ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous "arguments" supposed to show that this system of units had holes. ...or someone tired of academics creating things which are ambiguous, wrong, or which simply don't work in the real world. Lots of things work in theory, but no one lives there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I used to tell my students upon the introduction of angular frequency that if the math of AC analysis had come along a little earlier that our radio dials would be calibrated in radians per second instead of cycles per second (Hz). Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "Brooke Clarke" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems Hi Arnold: The web site contains a lot of unit related computations, see: http://futureboy.us/fsp/frink.fsp and it's author has spent quite a lot of time in understanding units. In school when I learned this it was called dimensional analysis. Here is the section dealing with Hertz: --- hertz := s^-1// frequency Hz := hertz // // Alan's Editorializing: Here is YET ANOTHER place where the SI made a // really stupid definition. Let's follow their chain of definitions, shall // we, and see how it leads to absolutely ridiculous results. // The Hz is currently defined simply as inverse seconds. (1/s). // See: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html // // The base unit of frequency in the SI *used* to be "cycles per second". // This was fine and good. However, in 1960, the BIPM made the // change to make the made the fundamental unit of frequency to // be "Hz" which they defined as inverse seconds (without qualification.) // // Then, in 1974, they changed the radian from its own base unit in the SI // to be a dimensionless number, which it indeed is (it's a length divided by // a length.) That change was correct and good in itself. // // However, the definition of the Hz was *not* corrected at the same // time that the radian was changed. Thus, we have the conflicting SI // definition of the radian as the dimensionless number 1 (without // qualification) and Hz as 1/s. (Without qualification.) // // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. // The entire rest of the world, up until that point, knew that 1 Hz needs to // be equal to *2 pi* radians/s or be changed to mean *cycles/second* for // these to be reconcilable. If you use "Hz" to mean cycles/second, say, // in sinusoidal motion, as the world has done for a century, know that the SI // made all your calculations wrong. A couple of times, in different ways. // // This gives the wonderful situation that the SI's Hz-vs-radian/s definitions // have meant completely different things in the timeperiods: // // * pre-1960 // * 1960 to 1974 // * post-1974 // // // Thus, anyone trying to mix the SI definitions for Hz and angular // frequencies (e.g. radians/s) will get utterly wrong answers that don't // match basic mathematical reality, nor match any way that Hz was ever used // for describing, say, sinusoidal motion. // // Beware the SI's broken definition // of Hz. You should treat the radian as being correct, as a fundamental // dimensionless property of the universe that falls out of pure math like // the Taylor series for sin[x], and you should treat the Hz as being a // fundamental property of incompetence by committee. // // One could consider the CGPM in 1960 to have made the original mistake, // re-defining Hz in a way that did not reflect its meaning up to that point, // or the CGPM in 1974 to have made the absolutely huge mistake that made // the whole system inconsistent and wrong, and clearly broke the definition // of Hz-vs-radian/s used everywhere in the world, turning it into a broken, // self-contradictory mess that it is now. // // Either way, if I ever develop a time machine, I'm going to go back and // knock both groups' heads together. At a frequency of about 1 Hz. Or // better yet, strap them to a wheel and tell them I'm going to spin one group // at a frequency of 1 Hz, and the other at 1 radian/s and let them try to // figure out which one of those stupid inconsistent definitions means what. // Hint: It'll depend on which time period I do it in, I guess, thanks to // their useless inconsistent definition changes. // // It's as if this bunch of geniuses took a well-understood term like "day" // and redefined it to mean "60 minutes". It simply breaks every historical // use, and present use, and just causes confusion and a blatant source of // error. // // In summary: Frink grudgingly follows the SI's ridiculous, broken definition // of "Hz". You
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Wolfgang > ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses > his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous "arguments" supposed > to show that this system of units had holes. > > On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: >> // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, >> // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates >> basic >> > Why exactly should hat arise when "following the rules of SI"? > > If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: > 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. > Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. > > That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be > constructed > whenever you can replace numerical "1" with something else. > > Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? > > But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write > Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = "seconds to the power of > a negataive radiant" which clearly shows that SI units are utterly > perverse! > > Wolfgang, DL1SKY > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind." R. Bacon "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous "arguments" supposed to show that this system of units had holes. On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: > // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, > // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic > Why exactly should hat arise when "following the rules of SI"? If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be constructed whenever you can replace numerical "1" with something else. Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = "seconds to the power of a negataive radiant" which clearly shows that SI units are utterly perverse! Wolfgang, DL1SKY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
You must work for the Department of Redundancy Department. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Greg Broburg wrote: > Don't forget LCD Display - Liquid Crystal Display Display > Alternative to LED Display - Light Emitting Diode Display > > Greg > > > On 4/5/2011 4:07 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> >> And you are being redundant, by saying "SI system" which is like >> saying International System System. Also see "PIN number" :-) >> >> Rick >> >> On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: >>> >>> For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. >>> How cares? >>> >>> The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the >>> communication link thinks the other does the same. >>> >>> So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with >>> inch-meters trouble etc. >>> >>> - Henry >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 04/06/2011 12:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message<4d9b5a36@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. I think he is fundamentally (ha!) confused. There is no reason for him or anybody else to think that the redefinition of the radian has anything to do with the Hz at all: Hz has never been defined in terms of the radian nor vice versa. Hz is the reciprocal of time, the same exact way conductivity (Siemens) is of resistance (Ohm) and that's all there is to that. Yeah, the Hz rambling is confusing to the degree that I could not quite set my finger on it. But his rant about the Candela is spot on. Candela is such a strange unit that it is almost cute. What was it? 1 inch candle... Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Don't forget LCD Display - Liquid Crystal Display Display Alternative to LED Display - Light Emitting Diode Display Greg On 4/5/2011 4:07 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: And you are being redundant, by saying "SI system" which is like saying International System System. Also see "PIN number" :-) Rick On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
And you are being redundant, by saying "SI system" which is like saying International System System. Also see "PIN number" :-) Rick On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
In message <4d9b5a36@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: >On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: >I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem >doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. I think he is fundamentally (ha!) confused. There is no reason for him or anybody else to think that the redefinition of the radian has anything to do with the Hz at all: Hz has never been defined in terms of the radian nor vice versa. Hz is the reciprocal of time, the same exact way conductivity (Siemens) is of resistance (Ohm) and that's all there is to that. But his rant about the Candela is spot on. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. I've tried to check this against up-to-date references, and the NIST SP 811-1985 isn't a valid reference, it is also a derivate work. Today you can get the hard docs here: http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/ I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 4/5/11 10:10 AM, wa1...@att.net wrote: Is that the one that's plotted on Lin-Log paper? It is indeed. I have no idea where it originated. From the typography, I'm going to guess it was done in the 60s, but I got a copy of a copy from a field engineer, etc. BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Hi Arnold: The web site contains a lot of unit related computations, see: http://futureboy.us/fsp/frink.fsp and it's author has spent quite a lot of time in understanding units. In school when I learned this it was called dimensional analysis. Here is the section dealing with Hertz: --- hertz := s^-1// frequency Hz := hertz // // Alan's Editorializing: Here is YET ANOTHER place where the SI made a // really stupid definition. Let's follow their chain of definitions, shall // we, and see how it leads to absolutely ridiculous results. // The Hz is currently defined simply as inverse seconds. (1/s). // See: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html // // The base unit of frequency in the SI *used* to be "cycles per second". // This was fine and good. However, in 1960, the BIPM made the // change to make the made the fundamental unit of frequency to // be "Hz" which they defined as inverse seconds (without qualification.) // // Then, in 1974, they changed the radian from its own base unit in the SI // to be a dimensionless number, which it indeed is (it's a length divided by // a length.) That change was correct and good in itself. // // However, the definition of the Hz was *not* corrected at the same // time that the radian was changed. Thus, we have the conflicting SI // definition of the radian as the dimensionless number 1 (without // qualification) and Hz as 1/s. (Without qualification.) // // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. // The entire rest of the world, up until that point, knew that 1 Hz needs to // be equal to *2 pi* radians/s or be changed to mean *cycles/second* for // these to be reconcilable. If you use "Hz" to mean cycles/second, say, // in sinusoidal motion, as the world has done for a century, know that the SI // made all your calculations wrong. A couple of times, in different ways. // // This gives the wonderful situation that the SI's Hz-vs-radian/s definitions // have meant completely different things in the timeperiods: // // * pre-1960 // * 1960 to 1974 // * post-1974 // // // Thus, anyone trying to mix the SI definitions for Hz and angular // frequencies (e.g. radians/s) will get utterly wrong answers that don't // match basic mathematical reality, nor match any way that Hz was ever used // for describing, say, sinusoidal motion. // // Beware the SI's broken definition // of Hz. You should treat the radian as being correct, as a fundamental // dimensionless property of the universe that falls out of pure math like // the Taylor series for sin[x], and you should treat the Hz as being a // fundamental property of incompetence by committee. // // One could consider the CGPM in 1960 to have made the original mistake, // re-defining Hz in a way that did not reflect its meaning up to that point, // or the CGPM in 1974 to have made the absolutely huge mistake that made // the whole system inconsistent and wrong, and clearly broke the definition // of Hz-vs-radian/s used everywhere in the world, turning it into a broken, // self-contradictory mess that it is now. // // Either way, if I ever develop a time machine, I'm going to go back and // knock both groups' heads together. At a frequency of about 1 Hz. Or // better yet, strap them to a wheel and tell them I'm going to spin one group // at a frequency of 1 Hz, and the other at 1 radian/s and let them try to // figure out which one of those stupid inconsistent definitions means what. // Hint: It'll depend on which time period I do it in, I guess, thanks to // their useless inconsistent definition changes. // // It's as if this bunch of geniuses took a well-understood term like "day" // and redefined it to mean "60 minutes". It simply breaks every historical // use, and present use, and just causes confusion and a blatant source of // error. // // In summary: Frink grudgingly follows the SI's ridiculous, broken definition // of "Hz". You should not use "Hz". The SI's definition of Hz should be // considered harmful and broken. Instead, if you're talking about circular // or sinusoidal motion, use terms like "cycles/sec" "revolutions/s", // "rpm", "circle/min", etc. and Frink will do the right thing because it // doesn't involve the stupid SI definition that doesn't match what any // human knows about sinusoidal motion. Use of "Hz" will cause communication // problems, errors, and make one party or another look insane in the eyes // of the other. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand what is wrong with 'Hz'. As Time in seconds is a SI unit, Frequency is the reciprocal value of time, f=1/T, Frequency is not a SI base unit but a SI coherent derived unit (in the list with special names and symbols as
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I don't understand what is wrong with 'Hz'. As Time in seconds is a SI unit, Frequency is the reciprocal value of time, f=1/T, Frequency is not a SI base unit but a SI coherent derived unit (in the list with special names and symbols as force, pressure, charge, power, resistance etc.). [11th CGPM, Resolution 12] So Frequency is defined as the measure of the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time. To calculate the frequency, the number of occurrences of the event within a fixed time interval are counted, and then it's divided by the length of the time interval. NIST wording: "The rotational frequency n of a rotating body is defined to be the number of revolutions it makes in a time interval divided by that time interval [4: ISO 8-3]. The SI unit of this quantity is thus the reciprocal second (s-1)". But perhaps I misunderstand your position, could you give an explanation? Arnold Am 05.04.2011 17:54, schrieb Brooke Clarke: > Hi Jim: > > But what you show violates the SI rules, even though it's the correct > calculation. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.PRC68.com > > > Jim Lux wrote: >> On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: >>> Hi: >>> >>> Just reading at: >>> http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt >>> >>> First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut >>> issue "Hz ". >>> >>> // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, >>> // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates >>> basic >>> // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. >>> >> actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec >> >> BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph >> published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting >> from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach >> it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. >> ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Le 05/04/2011 17:51, Jim Lux a écrit : On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. Isn't his premiss wrong? I see no required relation between s^-1 or 1/s and angular measure. If I am dropping rocks into a pool at 1 second intervals I get splashes at 1Hz . Not many radians in that. Maybe that is why cps was dropped. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Is that the one that's plotted on Lin-Log paper? -Brian, WA1ZMS On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
-Brian, WA1ZMS On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Hi Jim: But what you show violates the SI rules, even though it's the correct calculation. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue "Hz ". // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586 entirely referenced to 10MHz: A solution II
I am thinking the answer is not the interesting thread. Its yes, that approach was considered. I can't speak for Bert but the issue has been understood for a long time actually. At least 10 years since my first purchase. When I consider a problem I tend to look at the trade offs trade offs. The ability to actually be reproduced, simple, parts availability, low cost, stable, and a lot of other factors. Kind of would anyone else ever build something like X. So when FPGAs get introduced into the thread it starts to change the complexity of the project and the likelihood of very few actually having the ability to design or enhance and then burn the chip. The is a heck of answer to a tough problem at a cost of $ 8 total for both chips. Can be improved, gets more difficult as you improve it. Like everything else. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 5:33 PM, David I. Emery wrote: > On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:19:38AM -0400, Chuck Harris wrote: > > Basically, the higher the division ratio in a PLL synthesizer, > > which is what you are describing, the greater the phase noise. > > No question about that, indeed. > >But I am talking about a very low bandwidth loop (presumably > well under 1 HZ should work) which means the phase noise contribution > from the dividers and reference should be only inside that 1 Hz > bandpass. Outside of that the original crystal oscillator phase noise > should control, and while this won't improve that it also won't make it > any worse. > > > > > You can think of it this way: Both the reference, and the oscillator > > being controlled, need to be divided down to some common frequency > > that you feed to the phase detector. The entire time the counter is > > counting up the cycles to get you a cycle of that common frequency, > > the oscillator is not being disciplined. It is only after the > > count gets done that the phase detector can compare the two signals > > and create a correction correct for the error in the oscillator. > > True, but I am pretty sure the original crystal oscillator (even > modified with a varactor for tuning) was not phase-noisier than the rest > of the instruments LOs. It is, after all, a LF crystal oscillator > running at 13 or 17 KHz with presumably a high Q crystal which shouldn't > to the first order have unreasonable phase noise in the band around it. > The original problem was that this oscillator was not locked to a > reference and could drift a few tenths of a HZ (and maybe even Hz) > randomly with temp - not that it had too much phase noise. > > > > > > The DDS is essentially a hardware solution to finding a suitable > > divider ratio to convert one frequency into another. > > I do understand DDSes. > > > > -Chuck Harris > > > -- > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass > 02493 > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - > in > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now > either." > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] IEEE 1588 PTP transceiver chip announced by NatSemi
For those interested, from http://www.national.com/pf/DP/DP83630.html The DP83630 Precision PHYTER® device delivers the highest level of precision clock synchronization for real time industrial connectivity based on the IEEE 1588 standard. The DP83630 has deterministic, low latency and allows choice of microcontroller with no hardware customization required. The integrated 1588 functionality allows system designers the flexibility and precision of a close to the wire timestamp. The three key 1588 features supported by the device are: — Packet time stamps for clock synchronization — Integrated IEEE 1588 synchronized low jitter clock generation — Synchronized event triggering and time stamping through GPIO DP83630 offers innovative diagnostic features unique to National Semiconductor, including dynamic monitoring of link quality during standard operation for fault prediction. These advanced features allow the system designer to implement a fault prediction mechanism to detect and warn of deteriorating and changing link conditions. This single port fast Ethernet transceiver can support both copper and fiber media. Kevin, KR5F ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature question
My Tbolt is running at 47+ degrees and seems to be unstable on the last 3 digits. On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:50 AM, msproul wrote: > > What is the normally expected oven temperature range of the Thunderbolt? > > Over the past year the temperature of my Tbolt, as reported by Lady > Heather, > has slowly increased from the low 40"s C to the high 40"s. The maximum > temperature has now crept up to 50 C and is shown today at 50.8 C. At 50 C > the LH > temperature display changes from white to yellow which suggests a warning. > All other parameters appear to be normal. > > Does the 50.8 C indicate a potential problem? Is something failing? What is > the > maximum temperature that should be expected? > > Thanks for any help. > > Maury > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
