Re: [time-nuts] SMT Probing Stuff
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT) J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I recently bought some clean IBM Thinkpads cheap with unknown Boot PassWords. There is a hack to access the existing PWs and rewrite them, but it requires connecting to an 8 pin SMT IC. I know several vendors make Dip Clip type devices for connection to such chips, but I'd like reccomendations on whose are really any good. What speaks against soldering some AWG30 wire onto the pins? Usually thats nearly as fast as using a clip, but gives you much better connection. Unless i have dozens of boards i have to connect to, i usually use this instead of clips. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
Actually, it was in Nuts Volts as well, and I was thinking about posting a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty much went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get their spiel out. Thomas Valerio Offhand I can not think of any reason it could not exist but if you have to ask for the price, then I suspect it will be too expensive. On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:40:47 -0700, Skip Withrow skip.with...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Nuts, Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wondering if it really exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one yet? http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf Regards, Skip Withrow ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
It's been like that since the first op-amps and RTL. The new devices are all made with Nonobtanium and Administratium. Thomas Valerio Actually, it was in Nuts Volts as well, and I was thinking about posting a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty much went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get their spiel out. Thomas Valerio Offhand I can not think of any reason it could not exist but if you have to ask for the price, then I suspect it will be too expensive. On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:40:47 -0700, Skip Withrow skip.with...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Nuts, Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wondering if it really exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one yet? http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf Regards, Skip Withrow ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined?
hp_cisco...@yahoo.com said: One thing I am wondering about is disciplining - how much of this is HW and how much is SW? How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined? It it common practice to provide a GPS antenna input? I think you are missing the big picture. There are two different types of boxes. There are oscillators. They come in all types of quality. Many of the good ones include an oven to keep the crystal at a constant temperature. OCXO is a common term: Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator. There are GPSDOs: GPS Disciplined Oscillators, for example the Trimble Thunderbolt. They generally start with a good crystal, then add a GPS unit, some hardware to compare the crystal output with the GPS output, and a microprocessor and software to control everything. Crystals can be tuned slightly by changing the capacitance in parallel with the crystal. You can do that by using a diode for the capacitor and changing the back-bias across the diode. Usually, that voltage comes from a DAC. Discipline just means making it do what you want. Usually, that's put out the right time and/or frequency. GPS is a handy way to get both time and frequency. GPS and a good crystal are a good fit. GPS has lots of short term noise but very very good long term accuracy. Crystals have good short term stability but lots of long term drift. How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined? Any way you want. Whatever fits your application. One approach is to adjust something with a screwdriver. You have to do that frequently enough so that it meets your needs. Usually, crystals come with specs, things like max drift over a month or year. So you can figure out if you need to calibrate it monthly or annually. It's easier to get better accuracy with GPS. You might have fun browsing data sheets. Feed OCXO to google and see what you get. There is lots of info available on the HP Z3801A. http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm (Time sink warning.) -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
El 01/10/2012 11:22, Hal Murray escribió: t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. 4) The price varies a lot as a function of the quantity. They prefer to quote you as a function of the volume you request, and don't want you to be dissappointed it they publish a 1000+ price and you only want 10, or to make you think that it is too expensive if you want 1 but you think that the price, based on single quantites, is too expensive 5) International marketing policies. They want, for example, their US distributor to quote you, and will not provide you a direct factory pricing. In fact, I think that the usual thing is not to publish a price if they are not selling it directly to you. We don't publish prices of our products, and they are not a scam, not outrangeously expensive, they exists, they are not (very) tricky to use, and has not so many options... mainly the reasons are 4 and 5 :) Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
On Oct 1, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: El 01/10/2012 11:22, Hal Murray escribió: t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. 4) The price varies a lot as a function of the quantity. They prefer to quote you as a function of the volume you request, and don't want you to be dissappointed it they publish a 1000+ price and you only want 10, or to make you think that it is too expensive if you want 1 but you think that the price, based on single quantites, is too expensive 5) International marketing policies. They want, for example, their US distributor to quote you, and will not provide you a direct factory pricing. 6) Contractual or legal reasons. If they have contracted to build them for someone they may have given them special pricing and they don't want anybody to know what that special pricing was. If that price was negotiated well and was very high whoever they sold it to may realize their price was a different kind of special than they thought. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
On 9/30/12 10:51 PM, Thomas Valerio wrote: Actually, it was in Nuts Volts as well, and I was thinking about posting a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty much went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get their spiel out. I don't find that to be the case for connectorized RF components. Virtually all manufacturers have a listing of most of their parts and data sheets, but very few have a price list online. MiniCircuits is a notable exception. Yes, well established piece parts might have pricing from a distributor, as well. But for a lot of new components, the final price might not be set yet, and may also depend on your specific requirements. A mfr might not want to commit to a 10,000 piece production run and hope that their eventual customer didn't want a particular inspection or test that they decided not to do. It's also the case that for some of these components, they're not available in small quantities. I've called many a mfr up for some product aimed at the wireless industry and asked about pricing, and their question is how many thousand a month will you be using.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SMT Probing Stuff
Aging eyesight, for one. For another, I don't like hacking up hardware. And there is not a lot of access, except from directly above, and lots of easily melted plastic nereby. -John == On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT) J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I recently bought some clean IBM Thinkpads cheap with unknown Boot PassWords. There is a hack to access the existing PWs and rewrite them, but it requires connecting to an 8 pin SMT IC. I know several vendors make Dip Clip type devices for connection to such chips, but I'd like reccomendations on whose are really any good. What speaks against soldering some AWG30 wire onto the pins? Usually thats nearly as fast as using a clip, but gives you much better connection. Unless i have dozens of boards i have to connect to, i usually use this instead of clips. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
Hello Hal and all: Here's the answer I got: Don, A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. Best Regards Steven Wilson (#21490;#24093;#25991;) Technical Director RFX Limited Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K. Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333 email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk www.rfx.co.u Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase? Don Latham Hal Murray t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
Hi That's not a bad price for one piece. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 12:27 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these? Hello Hal and all: Here's the answer I got: Don, A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. Best Regards Steven Wilson (#21490;#24093;#25991;) Technical Director RFX Limited Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K. Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333 email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk www.rfx.co.u Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase? Don Latham Hal Murray t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
That isn't bad Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero! On Oct 1, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Hello Hal and all: Here's the answer I got: Don, A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. Best Regards Steven Wilson (#21490;#24093;#25991;) Technical Director RFX Limited Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K. Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333 email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk www.rfx.co.u Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase? Don Latham Hal Murray t...@westwood-tech.com said: information appeared to be non-existent. IMHO for pretty much *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam. Yes, when it says call for pricing, I usually drop interest. But I wouldn't say scam. How about not targeted at my corner of the market? I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price. 1) The product doesn't really exist yet. They have done the research but haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing. They are looking for initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need (and are willing to pay for). You want the tall skinny version? Fine, we'll make that first. How tall? 2) The product is tricky to use. They want to make sure it will work well in your application. 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters. They only stock a few combinations. If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a better price by picking the right options. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Messy benches
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM, John Pease john_pease...@yahoo.com wrote: Don Latham's law of horizontal surfaces states Any bare horizontal surface immediately becomes covered with junk. I would offer a more general law: A N dimensional surface tends to attrack N+1 dimensional objects to the saturation limit. As I had always heard it: Any flat surface accumulates stuff, until as such time that it has accumulated so much stuff it can no longer maintain it's structural integrity. At this time the pile of stuff re-organizes itself creating a new flat surface unto which you can pile more stuff. james ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
Well over 1000. Can still buy them Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero! On Oct 1, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost
Hello all - I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? I ran across this some time ago - Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that this is a later model than the one offered surplus. Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things... Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-component-models.htm Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts. TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00, Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ... I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8 channel was about the same. 73 john k6iql ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost
BTW this device is not nearly as good as a thunderbolt. Closer to that gpstcxo development kit that Jackson Labs is offering (HPSDR guys are using it I think). The short term and long term stability quite frankly doesn't appear to be in the same league as the Thunderbolt although someone would need to test one. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:36 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote: Hello all - I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? I ran across this some time ago - Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that this is a later model than the one offered surplus. Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things... Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-**component-models.htmhttp://www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-component-models.htm Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts. TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00, Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ... I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8 channel was about the same. 73 john k6iql __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Doc Bill Dailey KXØO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
I asked for a quotation to one spanish distributor about a year ago. It was quoted at 977 EUR for a single unit, for the newer Thunderbolt E. $465 seems not bad for that unit. Regards, Javier El 01/10/2012 18:53, Chris Albertson escribió: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the region of 6 weeks. I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost
I do not but could easily imagine in the new range they are with power supply antenna warranty etc. I know my $139 china purchase has been one of the best deals in a long time. That was about a year ago. So I do not think thats a crazy number for brand new. Other will let me know how wrong I am. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, johncr...@aol.com wrote: Hello all - I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities. Maybe more than $465? I ran across this some time ago - Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that this is a later model than the one offered surplus. Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things... Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-**component-models.htmhttp://www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-component-models.htm Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts. TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00, Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ... I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8 channel was about the same. 73 john k6iql __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?
On 10/01/2012 10:31 PM, Adrian wrote: Hi All, thanks to John's superb free Timelab software, I tried ADEV for the first time, after having been mostly interested in phase noise yet. I learned that ADEV sensitivity is limited by the 500 ps resolution of the counter that leads to a noise floor of 5E-10 at 1 sec, going down to 5E-11 at 100 sec etc. Actually, the dynamic range allows only for meaningful results beyond a few hundred seconds. Anything below 100 sec is simply below the system noise floor. Note that the measurement noise floor appears to be determined exclusively by the resolution of the counter time interval mode, which, for a HP 53131A is 500 ps. A 53132A with 200 ps resolution should produce a noise floor of 2E-10 at 1 sec. Likewise, a 20 ps counter (5370A, SR620) should get you to 2E-11 at 1 sec. Here is an example that shows what I mean: http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm. Add limit lines to the diagram as discussed above to see what I mean. Even a 5370A or SR620 would not be good enough to measure the 5065A below 100 sec in that example, since anything below a straight line through the points 2E-11 / 1 sec and 2E-14 / 1000 sec would be below the measurement limit. I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 figures on that counter. As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode noise floor. So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of the given instruments? Ahem, you should be careful with certain modes of the 53131/53132 counters, amongst others. As they do internal smoothing they do a form of filtering which gives you artificially lower numbers than the actual numbers. We have covered this several times and from many angles. Stick to the TI mode for correct numbers. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?
I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 figures on that counter. Limited? The question is not so much counting the figures but asking if the how much the figures count. As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode noise floor. In frequency mode, the hp 53131A/53132A counters use a clever internal averaging mode. It's mentioned in the manual. The readings it reports are a highly oversampled mean frequency. This is nothing to complain about, really. Typically, with a frequency counter you are only interested in a smoothed averaged result. And these hp and other modern frequency counters do this quite well. So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of the given instruments? An ADEV measurement is rather different from average frequency measurement. ADEV tries to tell you the variance, the deviations from the average frequency, as a function of tau. It's purpose is to measure the noise, not make the noise go away. So the more a frequency counter averages (in order to give you a smooth average frequency) the more it is actually suppressing the very variations that you are trying to measure. In order to gain precision these frequency counters are removing part of the variance; ADEV is completely ignores precision and is only concerned with the variance. This is why one-shot phase meters or time interval counters give a more pure view of oscillator performance. Yes, they tend to report a little to a lot more noise -- but that's because there *is* more noise. An oversampling frequency counter takes the liberty to average away as much noise as it possibly can, to suppress the short-term variations, and present just a single value as the one true answer. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?
As you've found, time interval counters by themselves can't measure Allan Deviation to the levels required for today's precision oscillators. Here are three google searches - either a general search or search the Time Nuts archive at www.febo.com. They will get you started in the topic of Allan Deviation measurement. single mixer -dual mixer allan deviation Tight PLL DMTD oscillator These describe the three main methods of measuring Allan Deviation. To oversimplify, they increase the time-domain noise in a way that allows measurements that don't require such small time interval resolutions (i.e.. less than 1 picosecond). They each have strong and weak points. The single mixer method is probably the easiest, but requires a reference oscillator that is comparable in quality to the device under test and is offset in frequency by typically 1-100 Hz. The Tight PLL method was discussed a few years ago on this list but hasn't really caught on much even though it appears to be as good as the other methods. The DMTD (Dual Mixer Time Difference) method is the standard for comparing two oscillators that are running at the same frequency. It also requires an offset frequency oscillator, but it doesn't have to be as good as the devices under test because it's noise is cancelled out. It has the most complicated hardware setup of the three methods. All of these methods require extreme attention to detail to get top performance. Note: Once you start down this rabbit hole, there is no turning back. You have been warned! :-) Ed On 10/1/2012 2:31 PM, Adrian wrote: Hi All, thanks to John's superb free Timelab software, I tried ADEV for the first time, after having been mostly interested in phase noise yet. I learned that ADEV sensitivity is limited by the 500 ps resolution of the counter that leads to a noise floor of 5E-10 at 1 sec, going down to 5E-11 at 100 sec etc. Actually, the dynamic range allows only for meaningful results beyond a few hundred seconds. Anything below 100 sec is simply below the system noise floor. Note that the measurement noise floor appears to be determined exclusively by the resolution of the counter time interval mode, which, for a HP 53131A is 500 ps. A 53132A with 200 ps resolution should produce a noise floor of 2E-10 at 1 sec. Likewise, a 20 ps counter (5370A, SR620) should get you to 2E-11 at 1 sec. Here is an example that shows what I mean: http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm. Add limit lines to the diagram as discussed above to see what I mean. Even a 5370A or SR620 would not be good enough to measure the 5065A below 100 sec in that example, since anything below a straight line through the points 2E-11 / 1 sec and 2E-14 / 1000 sec would be below the measurement limit. I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 figures on that counter. As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode noise floor. So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of the given instruments? Adrian ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?
I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 figures on that counter. If you look closely you'll see that the 53132A resolution drops by a factor of ten (to 11 digits per second) when then input is too near 5 or 10 MHz. There's a note on page 185 of the user manual: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/53131-90055.pdf /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?
Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wonding if it really exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one yet? http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf It is small enough to incorporate in the external antenna ! Raj ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] They're baaaack!
Are LightSquared still trying to get some value from their contributions? http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/lightsquared-still-wont-give-up-on-spectrum-near-gps-band/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpostid=a2a98f9f-beae-4642-9ba0-a1874805f024 -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
