Re: [time-nuts] Questions about TAC frontend, and some measurements
Attila Kinali wrote: On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:45:40 +0100 Fabio Ebolifabi...@quipo.it wrote: Il 2012-12-23 07:42 Bruce Griffiths ha scritto: The classic TAC using current mode switching is similar to the attached circuit schematic. http://pastebin.com/EkgqmgfE I have a couple of small questions about this circuit. Why are Q2 and Q13 driven by Vth? As there are inverted versions of the Discharge and Ramp signals available, wouldn't it make sense to use those to drive Q2 and Q13? I guess it would enhance switching speed. Only if the 2 complementary signals have closely matching propagation delays. This is usually true with ECL logic but not necessarily true with CMOS logic. Also the reverse emitter base breakdown voltage of faster transistors will be exceeded with 10V pp differential drive. What is the reason behind the emitter followers Q1 and Q9? Respecitvely, why shouldnt R3/R4, R7/R8 be connected directly to V+/V-? Avoidance of saturation and ensuring sufficent headroom for the current sources/sinks. Is there a special reson why the current source around Q9 is set to 20mA and the one around Q4 to 10mA? Is it because Q14/Q15 are driven by a 20mA current source while Q18/Q19 by a 10mA source? No special reason although if the long tailed pair driving a subsequent longtailed pair has a significantly lower tail current than the driven pair the second pair will switch more slowly. Am i correct, that the only current source whos value really matters is the one around Q11? If so, wouldn't it be beneficial to use a stable reference voltage (probably coupled with the ADC reference) to be used in an opamp based current source against GND or V- and a current mirror (cascode or wilson) to drive Q18/Q19 (while leaving the other LED based current sources as they are, including Q16)? Ideally the discharge switch current source should equal twice the charge switch current source to ensure equal currents (and ideally equal voltage drops across) in the clamp diodes when the ramp capacitor is fully discharged.. A mirror uses extra matched transistors that can be avoided if an opamp and reference is used to replace the LED's together with resistor isolated feedback from the current source emitter. The ADC reference isn't always accessible particularly with an ADC embedded within a microprocessor. Attila Kinali Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPS/Glonass/Galileo GPS Receiver
Hello, Has anyone tried the NV08C-MCM GPS receiver chip? I’m interested in a chip that will work with all the different satellite systems. Regards Martyn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS/Glonass/Galileo GPS Receiver
Have you alredy submitted a price query for chips/EVK? On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Martyn Smith mar...@ptsyst.com wrote: Hello, Has anyone tried the NV08C-MCM GPS receiver chip? I’m interested in a chip that will work with all the different satellite systems. Regards Martyn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask for general directions I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and filters. Now, the questions: 1) Does someone has some good references about them? 2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc) Thank you for any help... Daniel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Most modern books on micriowave design (and probably Wiki) have the basics. They are based on the NMR principle (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance). This is the same physics used in MRI. You might also look at old issues of the HP Journal or the Watkins-Johnson house journal. The former is easily available at HPMemory.org. YIGs were used in most sweepers from roughly 1970 on by companies like HP, Wiltron, Narda, and some others. The oscillators are more common than the filters. It is more likely that an oscillator will be bad than a filter, as there are active devices in oscillators. They are generally useful from roughly 0.5 GHz to 20 GHz. -John Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask for general directions I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and filters. Now, the questions: 1) Does someone has some good references about them? 2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc) Thank you for any help... Daniel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
THis is exactly what they are talking about the 74HC390 can do over 50MHz and costs abut 30 cents. You don't need ECL or anything so exotic the 30 cent part will work. Set it for divide by 5. I guess this is imperfect enough that there is some fourth harmonic content in the 2MHz square wave, then you select that with a narrow band filter and amplify it to whatever you need. A smart design might try and add fourth harmonics be using a slightly not-symetric 2MHz square wave My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote: Isn't there a fast divide by N counter that you could set to 10? Maybe even in ECL? - Original Message - From: David davidwh...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier They do not exist as I found out (again) not long ago. The last 7490 made was LS (low power schottky) and I use quite a few of them. Actually, I have seen a datasheet for a 74HC90 and 74HCT90 but they apparently either never went into production or very few were produced. The closest non-TTL alternative that I found was the 74HC390 or 74HCT390 which is basically two 7490 counters in one package. On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:59:01 +1100, Max vk3...@gmail.com wrote: Where can one get some of these mythical 74HC90 's and 74AC90 's that have been mentioned. None of the usual places have them, ie ebay, digi-key, farnell, or even the Chinese. Also data-sheets are not to be found. Thanks On 4/01/2013 5:13 AM, Bill Fuqua wrote: One way is to divide by 10 and then multiply by 16. Divide by 10 and then follow by 4 tuned frequency doublers. This should introduce little phase noise. Another way to do it is to divide by 10, then pass the output thru a narrow 16 MHz filter and amplify. Sounds difficult but the filter can be one or two 16 MHz crystals followed by a simple amplifier. Look at the reference input circuit for a PTS-160. The output of the divide by 10 needs to be asymmetrical so it produces even harmonics. If you are using a divide divide by 52 such as a 74HC90, divide by 2 first then by 5. Ideally the pulse width should be a half period of 16 MHz for the maximum harmonic content at 16 MHz. You can take the output of the frequency divider and send it to a NAND gate. One input of the gate is directly connected and the other is delayed. You can use an RC with a variable capacitor to ground to get it just right. Just adjust the capacitor to get the maximum output from your filter amplifier. 73 Bill wa4lav At 07:41 PM 1/2/2013 +, you wrote: What's the simplest way to generate 16 MHz from 10 MHz? This will be for clocking a microcontroller at 16 MHz given 10 MHz (Cs/Rb/GPSDO). Low price and low parts count is a goal; jitter is not a concern but absolute long-term phase coherence is a must. The ICS525 (as in TAPR Clock-Block) is a good candidate but I was wondering if there's something cheaper, less functional, and maybe not SSOP. Any suggestions? Thanks, /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
Paul Wade built a board recently to do just this. www.w1ghz.org. Bob On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: THis is exactly what they are talking about the 74HC390 can do over 50MHz and costs abut 30 cents. You don't need ECL or anything so exotic the 30 cent part will work. Set it for divide by 5. I guess this is imperfect enough that there is some fourth harmonic content in the 2MHz square wave, then you select that with a narrow band filter and amplify it to whatever you need. A smart design might try and add fourth harmonics be using a slightly not-symetric 2MHz square wave My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote: Isn't there a fast divide by N counter that you could set to 10? Maybe even in ECL? - Original Message - From: David davidwh...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier They do not exist as I found out (again) not long ago. The last 7490 made was LS (low power schottky) and I use quite a few of them. Actually, I have seen a datasheet for a 74HC90 and 74HCT90 but they apparently either never went into production or very few were produced. The closest non-TTL alternative that I found was the 74HC390 or 74HCT390 which is basically two 7490 counters in one package. On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:59:01 +1100, Max vk3...@gmail.com wrote: Where can one get some of these mythical 74HC90 's and 74AC90 's that have been mentioned. None of the usual places have them, ie ebay, digi-key, farnell, or even the Chinese. Also data-sheets are not to be found. Thanks On 4/01/2013 5:13 AM, Bill Fuqua wrote: One way is to divide by 10 and then multiply by 16. Divide by 10 and then follow by 4 tuned frequency doublers. This should introduce little phase noise. Another way to do it is to divide by 10, then pass the output thru a narrow 16 MHz filter and amplify. Sounds difficult but the filter can be one or two 16 MHz crystals followed by a simple amplifier. Look at the reference input circuit for a PTS-160. The output of the divide by 10 needs to be asymmetrical so it produces even harmonics. If you are using a divide divide by 52 such as a 74HC90, divide by 2 first then by 5. Ideally the pulse width should be a half period of 16 MHz for the maximum harmonic content at 16 MHz. You can take the output of the frequency divider and send it to a NAND gate. One input of the gate is directly connected and the other is delayed. You can use an RC with a variable capacitor to ground to get it just right. Just adjust the capacitor to get the maximum output from your filter amplifier. 73 Bill wa4lav At 07:41 PM 1/2/2013 +, you wrote: What's the simplest way to generate 16 MHz from 10 MHz? This will be for clocking a microcontroller at 16 MHz given 10 MHz (Cs/Rb/GPSDO). Low price and low parts count is a goal; jitter is not a concern but absolute long-term phase coherence is a must. The ICS525 (as in TAPR Clock-Block) is a good candidate but I was wondering if there's something cheaper, less functional, and maybe not SSOP. Any suggestions? Thanks, /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Hi Daniel, I cant remember the reference the web site might help but there have been at least a couple of articles on YIG modules in VHF Comms magazine Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 2:19 PM Subject: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask for general directions I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and filters. Now, the questions: 1) Does someone has some good references about them? 2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc) Thank you for any help... Daniel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Daniel, Another place to go is KE5FX's site. He's got lots of good info on the stellex ones as well as controlling them with the rf synthesizer that can be had on that conspicuous auction place. I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) So did you take the plunge? Buy any toys?? Norm n3ykf On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com wrote: Hi Daniel, I cant remember the reference the web site might help but there have been at least a couple of articles on YIG modules in VHF Comms magazine Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 2:19 PM Subject: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask for general directions I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and filters. Now, the questions: 1) Does someone has some good references about them? 2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc) Thank you for any help... Daniel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
Chris Albertson wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
If you divide by 5 the phase noise sideband amplitude (voltage) will be divided by 5. That is a reduction of 14db for all phase noise sideband frequencies . Then when you multiply that by 8 you will add the phase noise sidebands will be multiplied by 8 or 3x6db or 18 db. So the end result will be a factor (if I did my math right in my head, which is getting more difficult these days) 4db increase. The crystal filter will reduce the phase noise sidebands to some degree. That is to say if you had a perfect filter you could pass only the carrier with out the sidebands and thus no phase noise. However, if your filter has 1kHz bandwidth you would only eliminate the sidebands beyond 500 Hz on either side of the carrier. So the answer is sort of yes. When I read the email about multiply by 16 and divide by 10 it occurred to me that it would be easier to divide and then multiply and then I began to brain storm, which is hard to do when you stay up too late. If you chose to use a crystal ladder you need to use 16 MHz parallel resonant crystals since the series resonance will be slightly less than 16 MHz. These crystals are rather cheap. If you want to use a simple high Q (narrow bandwidth) phasing type filter you need to use a crystal with a 16MHz series resonance and use a termination resistance greater than the crystals series resistance. You can adjust the crystal filters bandwidth by changing the termination resistance. This type of filter was mostly used in early vacuum tube receivers. They usually shot for a minimum bandwidth of 500 Hz or so. you need to adjust the phasing capacitor so it equals the crystals parallel capacitance to minimize feed thru. Experimenting with these filters is a lot of fun. I have made lots of crystal filters. I even have a digital crystal impedance meter so I can compare crystals. If reducing phase sidebands in not a goal all you need is a filter that will eliminate all the other 2 MHz harmonics. 73 Bill wa4lav At 05:37 PM 1/4/2013 +, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: THis is exactly what they are talking about the 74HC390 can do over 50MHz and costs abut 30 cents. You don't need ECL or anything so exotic the 30 cent part will work. Set it for divide by 5. I guess this is imperfect enough that there is some fourth harmonic content in the 2MHz square wave, then you select that with a narrow band filter and amplify it to whatever you need. A smart design might try and add fourth harmonics be using a slightly not-symetric 2MHz square wave My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
On 1/4/13 10:25 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote: Chris Albertson wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. An excellent point.. After all, what is a crystal oscillator but essentially a noise source followed by a crystal filter. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. I can't think of a good practical example, but say you had a kind of noisy source, and a box full of crystals that happened to be at the same frequency, and for some odd reason, you didn't just build an oscillator with the crystal. (perhaps some sort of distribution amp system where you want all the outputs to be coherent to some reference, and the reference is noisy?) Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Double balanced mixer! Sorry for the silly overuse of abbreviations.. Norm On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:10 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
They are neat toys, aren't they? :-) I discovered them a couple of years ago. Since then I've collected a few from ebay to play with. They're oddball units with no documentation, but they weren't too hard to decipher. I even cobbled together a phase-lock system for one. It worked, but it was too noisy for my needs. It seems like YIGs have been superseded by VCOs for most applications - but I'm by no means an expert. I've collected some random PDFs and other files about YIGs. I zipped them and put them on Mediafire. Help yourself. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?6v0db7crbkbb943 Ed On 1/4/2013 8:19 AM, Daniel Mendes wrote: Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask for general directions I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and filters. Now, the questions: 1) Does someone has some good references about them? 2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc) Thank you for any help... Daniel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Likely double balanced mixer... On Jan 4, 2013, at 2:10 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
Ed, The files in the zip are of great usefulness!! Thank you very much! Norm On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Bill Powell bill...@bellsouth.net wrote: Likely double balanced mixer... On Jan 4, 2013, at 2:10 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
On 1/4/13 11:34 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: They are neat toys, aren't they? :-) I discovered them a couple of years ago. Since then I've collected a few from ebay to play with. They're oddball units with no documentation, but they weren't too hard to decipher. I even cobbled together a phase-lock system for one. It worked, but it was too noisy for my needs. It seems like YIGs have been superseded by VCOs for most applications - but I'm by no means an expert. Most VCOs don't have multioctave bandwidths, but YIGs do that with no sweat. YIGs are also used as wideband tunable preselectors. Back in the 80s, I used an EIP counter to drive a YIG as a wideband LO for a spectrum analyzer kind of application. The counter had the right coarse and fine outputs, and was controllable via GPIB, etc. There's some companies making very small (1 cm3) YIG oscillators with wide bandwidths and really good vibration/shock tolerance, as well. I suspect that the application is something like small jammers dropped from planes and the like. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
If you need that mixer for a LNBF, I believe that is close to the international C-band. Google around for a Norsat that ends in I. They use it in India. -Original Message- From: Lizeth Norman normanliz...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 14:12:55 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators Double balanced mixer! Sorry for the silly overuse of abbreviations.. Norm On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:10 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators
It's actually for an amateur space downlink, Not quite C band but close! Various mixers are available on the bay from cheep to the not so cheap. Thanks for the tip regarding the Norsat LNBF. ! I'll let my fingers do the walking. Norm On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 3:12 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: If you need that mixer for a LNBF, I believe that is close to the international C-band. Google around for a Norsat that ends in I. They use it in India. -Original Message- From: Lizeth Norman normanliz...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 14:12:55 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators Double balanced mixer! Sorry for the silly overuse of abbreviations.. Norm On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:10 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: dbm? On 1/4/2013 9:45 AM, Lizeth Norman wrote: I've actually purchased several of these with the thought of using them to drive the LO port of a dbm so that I can rx at 5.84GHz (as well as some other freq's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
At 07:51 PM 1/4/2013 +, you wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK Flicker noise (1/f ) noise would be introduced by an amplifier and not by the filter. I am only suggesting ways to multiply the frequency. You could use LC filters or a crystal filter. Using 3 doublers would do the job just as well. Naturally if you are concerned about flicker noise you could simply make the 2 MHz signal higher in amplitude before selecting the 8th harmonic. I was not saying your going to clean up a good crystal oscillator with a crystal filter. I though you were talking about generating 16MHz from 10MHz in a clean way. Using a microcontroller or even most synthesizers techniques would make it even worse. The PTS synthesizers have fairly good phase noise when they use frequency multiplication, division, mixing, comb generation and filtering on the most part to achieve low phase noise. The later models use a DDS at the lower frequency levels but do have greater phase noise close to the carrier. In fact in the SGA unit the reference input goes thru a transistor ( to distort it) and then into a series 10MHz crystal filter so that it can accept either a 5 or 10 MHz input. The crystal also helps filter out any birdies that may be on the reference signal. The filter should be fairly high Q since it has 47 Ohm drive impedance and 100 Ohm load impedance. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
How about getting back to basics. Is it a one off, if production how many and what are the specification requirements? Otherwise on this list it can go on for a year. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/4/2013 6:11:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wlfuq...@uky.edu writes: At 07:51 PM 1/4/2013 +, you wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK Flicker noise (1/f ) noise would be introduced by an amplifier and not by the filter. I am only suggesting ways to multiply the frequency. You could use LC filters or a crystal filter. Using 3 doublers would do the job just as well. Naturally if you are concerned about flicker noise you could simply make the 2 MHz signal higher in amplitude before selecting the 8th harmonic. I was not saying your going to clean up a good crystal oscillator with a crystal filter. I though you were talking about generating 16MHz from 10MHz in a clean way. Using a microcontroller or even most synthesizers techniques would make it even worse. The PTS synthesizers have fairly good phase noise when they use frequency multiplication, division, mixing, comb generation and filtering on the most part to achieve low phase noise. The later models use a DDS at the lower frequency levels but do have greater phase noise close to the carrier. In fact in the SGA unit the reference input goes thru a transistor ( to distort it) and then into a series 10MHz crystal filter so that it can accept either a 5 or 10 MHz input. The crystal also helps filter out any birdies that may be on the reference signal. The filter should be fairly high Q since it has 47 Ohm drive impedance and 100 Ohm load impedance. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
Hi As I recall the spec was: 1) Cheap 2) no phase slips on the 16 MHz relative to 10 MHz 3) Cheap Bob On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: How about getting back to basics. Is it a one off, if production how many and what are the specification requirements? Otherwise on this list it can go on for a year. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/4/2013 6:11:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wlfuq...@uky.edu writes: At 07:51 PM 1/4/2013 +, you wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK Flicker noise (1/f ) noise would be introduced by an amplifier and not by the filter. I am only suggesting ways to multiply the frequency. You could use LC filters or a crystal filter. Using 3 doublers would do the job just as well. Naturally if you are concerned about flicker noise you could simply make the 2 MHz signal higher in amplitude before selecting the 8th harmonic. I was not saying your going to clean up a good crystal oscillator with a crystal filter. I though you were talking about generating 16MHz from 10MHz in a clean way. Using a microcontroller or even most synthesizers techniques would make it even worse. The PTS synthesizers have fairly good phase noise when they use frequency multiplication, division, mixing, comb generation and filtering on the most part to achieve low phase noise. The later models use a DDS at the lower frequency levels but do have greater phase noise close to the carrier. In fact in the SGA unit the reference input goes thru a transistor ( to distort it) and then into a series 10MHz crystal filter so that it can accept either a 5 or 10 MHz input. The crystal also helps filter out any birdies that may be on the reference signal. The filter should be fairly high Q since it has 47 Ohm drive impedance and 100 Ohm load impedance. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
I think the thread branched and as I recall started something like this. Someone needed a Simple 16 Mhz for a uproc made from a 10 Mhz source. Two reasonable answers were given. Injection locked oscillator Typical div and mult/filter. A third and kind of interesting for me a Ti chip soic digital pll. Then the thread went a whole bunch of directions. Wonder if who ever needed an answer got the answer? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: How about getting back to basics. Is it a one off, if production how many and what are the specification requirements? Otherwise on this list it can go on for a year. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/4/2013 6:11:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wlfuq...@uky.edu writes: At 07:51 PM 1/4/2013 +, you wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK Flicker noise (1/f ) noise would be introduced by an amplifier and not by the filter. I am only suggesting ways to multiply the frequency. You could use LC filters or a crystal filter. Using 3 doublers would do the job just as well. Naturally if you are concerned about flicker noise you could simply make the 2 MHz signal higher in amplitude before selecting the 8th harmonic. I was not saying your going to clean up a good crystal oscillator with a crystal filter. I though you were talking about generating 16MHz from 10MHz in a clean way. Using a microcontroller or even most synthesizers techniques would make it even worse. The PTS synthesizers have fairly good phase noise when they use frequency multiplication, division, mixing, comb generation and filtering on the most part to achieve low phase noise. The later models use a DDS at the lower frequency levels but do have greater phase noise close to the carrier. In fact in the SGA unit the reference input goes thru a transistor ( to distort it) and then into a series 10MHz crystal filter so that it can accept either a 5 or 10 MHz input. The crystal also helps filter out any birdies that may be on the reference signal. The filter should be fairly high Q since it has 47 Ohm drive impedance and 100 Ohm load impedance. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz - 16 MHz clock multiplier
HI Ok, it's TimeNuts, we need numbers… Say no phase slips is 0.1 UI on the 16 MHz. That would be a jitter number of 6.25 ns RMS. Bob On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: How about getting back to basics. Is it a one off, if production how many and what are the specification requirements? Otherwise on this list it can go on for a year. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/4/2013 6:11:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wlfuq...@uky.edu writes: At 07:51 PM 1/4/2013 +, you wrote: My question is about the phase noise of the final 16MHz signal. Do crystal filters clean up the signal. It seems that after several 16MHz crystals in series the output should look a lot like an XO. For offsets out to 100 Hz or so, using a crystal filter will cause the signal to have the same flicker noise that an oscillator built with that crystal would have. Thus don't try to use some junky clock crystals to make a crystal filter as described in numerous ham radio articles about receiver IF filters. If you have a residual phase noise measurement system like the Agilent E5505A and a very low flicker noise source, you can actually measure your filter crystals. Of course, the crystal time base in the source has to be better than the crystals you are measuring. You also have to avoid overdriving the crystal. This will require a low noise buffer amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high level. Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative. Rick Karlquist N6RK Flicker noise (1/f ) noise would be introduced by an amplifier and not by the filter. I am only suggesting ways to multiply the frequency. You could use LC filters or a crystal filter. Using 3 doublers would do the job just as well. Naturally if you are concerned about flicker noise you could simply make the 2 MHz signal higher in amplitude before selecting the 8th harmonic. I was not saying your going to clean up a good crystal oscillator with a crystal filter. I though you were talking about generating 16MHz from 10MHz in a clean way. Using a microcontroller or even most synthesizers techniques would make it even worse. The PTS synthesizers have fairly good phase noise when they use frequency multiplication, division, mixing, comb generation and filtering on the most part to achieve low phase noise. The later models use a DDS at the lower frequency levels but do have greater phase noise close to the carrier. In fact in the SGA unit the reference input goes thru a transistor ( to distort it) and then into a series 10MHz crystal filter so that it can accept either a 5 or 10 MHz input. The crystal also helps filter out any birdies that may be on the reference signal. The filter should be fairly high Q since it has 47 Ohm drive impedance and 100 Ohm load impedance. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
