Re: [time-nuts] DCF77 PPS
folk...@vanheusden.com said: So my guestimate is that 259 and 263 are the values to look for and I should ignore the others so that I don't confuse ntpd. That doesn't make sense to me, probably because I don't understand your data collection environment and/or maybe it's dong something strange. I see several things that I don't understand. One is the big offset. The second is the 4 ms steps between sample buckets. Do you have a scope? The simplest way to see what's going on would be to trigger on the PPS from the GPS unit and look at the DCF77 signal. The result was neither! From visual inspection it looked as if only 3 or 4 different offsets were registered. So I ran 3 tests where I took 120 offset-samples, masked of the microseconds ... How did you mask off the microseconds? Did you do that in binary or drop the right part of an ascii string? If you masked in binary, maybe you got 2 extra bits. There are 2 parts to decoding something like the DCF77 signal. One is to get an accurate marker for the PPS signal. The other is to figure out the time for each PPS by decoding the pattern of pulse widths. You should be able to see the pulse widths if you capture both sides of the PPS signal. One common way to get a large/strange offset is to use the wrong edge of the PPS signal. If that's what was happening, I'd expect to see several clumps of offsets corresponding to the different pulse widths. I only see one broad clump. I wouldn't worry about confusing ntpd, at least not at this level. It has a noise reduction mechanism. It puts all the samples into a fifo. When the driver (PPS/Atom or SHM or ...) gets polled, ntpd sorts the buffer then discards 1/3 of the samples as (potentially crazy) outliers. Other things to try: Unplug and/or turn off GPS. Unplug and/or turn off DCF77. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
I've had an interesting week or so playing with an X72 and it turned out not to be quite as straightforward as I first expected. A google based X72 search of the list archives seems to throw up more questions than answers so I thought it might help a bit if I shared what I've learned, whilst hoping others might be able to fill in some missing gaps for me too:-) One of the attractions of the X72 was the option to use a 1PPS input for frequency conditioning, and one of the first things I learned was that this depends on the firmware version. This feature was introduced with firmware version 5.02 in 2003, and this bright and shiny looking just like new X72 turned out to have 25,000 hours on the clock and firmware version 4.10 from 2002. Lesson one, looks ain't everything:-( Next problem, these are specified at shipment to have an accuracy of +/-5E-11 but obviously they age. Whilst Symmetricom does offer analogue and digital options for adjustment, more of which in a moment, there's no user option to properly adjust the startup frequency, as in the FE5680A for example, instead there's a flag that gets set to conveniently warn the user when it's time to send their X72 back to Symmetricom for a service. As received, the locked output frequency of this unit was 9.999,999,986,xx Mhz, the xx indicating digits still wandering after lock which may reflect more on the less than ideal antenna placement for the Thunderbolt providing the counter reference. When finally in a negotiated position to remove the do not remove warranty stickers both were found to cover access holes, one of which led nowhere but the other to a trimmer capacitor adjacent to the lamp assembly. Whether or not it was the intended purpose this did allow adjustment of the output frequency, unfortunately it ran out of steam at 9.999,999,992,xx MHz so was reset to where it started. There are two further options for frequency adjustment, not including the digitally adjustable CMOS outputs, one is a software command that allows an offset to be specified, based on the free running frequency and in steps of 2E-12, which does allow for reasonable adjustment relative to the startup frequency but resets every time power is removed The other is an anologue control input which can be varied from 0 to 5 volts and allows adjustment to a few parts in 10^11, but which sits at just over 4 volts to bring this one to 10MHz. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
Hi All This messsage was a work in progress and was sent in error, in particular it was due to be converted to something more akin to a series of bullet points as it was becoming much too verbose, will edit later and add the rest of the information. Apologies for this, please ignore for now. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 16/03/2013 09:41:31 GMT Standard Time, gandal...@aol.com writes: I've had an interesting week or so playing with an X72 and it turned out not to be quite as straightforward as I first expected. A google based X72 search of the list archives seems to throw up more questions than answers so I thought it might help a bit if I shared what I've learned, whilst hoping others might be able to fill in some missing gaps for me too:-) One of the attractions of the X72 was the option to use a 1PPS input for frequency conditioning, and one of the first things I learned was that this depends on the firmware version. This feature was introduced with firmware version 5.02 in 2003, and this bright and shiny looking just like new X72 turned out to have 25,000 hours on the clock and firmware version 4.10 from 2002. Lesson one, looks ain't everything:-( Next problem, these are specified at shipment to have an accuracy of +/-5E-11 but obviously they age. Whilst Symmetricom does offer analogue and digital options for adjustment, more of which in a moment, there's no user option to properly adjust the startup frequency, as in the FE5680A for example, instead there's a flag that gets set to conveniently warn the user when it's time to send their X72 back to Symmetricom for a service. As received, the locked output frequency of this unit was 9.999,999,986,xx Mhz, the xx indicating digits still wandering after lock which may reflect more on the less than ideal antenna placement for the Thunderbolt providing the counter reference. When finally in a negotiated position to remove the do not remove warranty stickers both were found to cover access holes, one of which led nowhere but the other to a trimmer capacitor adjacent to the lamp assembly. Whether or not it was the intended purpose this did allow adjustment of the output frequency, unfortunately it ran out of steam at 9.999,999,992,xx MHz so was reset to where it started. There are two further options for frequency adjustment, not including the digitally adjustable CMOS outputs, one is a software command that allows an offset to be specified, based on the free running frequency and in steps of 2E-12, which does allow for reasonable adjustment relative to the startup frequency but resets every time power is removed The other is an anologue control input which can be varied from 0 to 5 volts and allows adjustment to a few parts in 10^11, but which sits at just over 4 volts to bring this one to 10MHz. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 05:45:46 -0400, GandalfG8-YDxpq3io04c wrote: Hi All This messsage was a work in progress and was sent in error Please keep the info comming I did also get a X72 , for the 1-PPS conditioning. And was also bitten by the old firmware not supporting 1-PPS But after complaining a little bit. I got the seller to report the fw vers detected in mine. See 'bay #180791401271 I would love to be able to upgrade the FW , but haven't found any newer firmware or instructions. So the X72 is taking a rest for now ... CFO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
I ran into the same problem a few years ago. I asked Symmetricom if the unit could be upgraded. They said it could - for the low, low price of only $1135. No, I didn't forget a decimal point in there. $1135.00. One Thousand, One Hundred, and Thirty-Five Dollars!! What planet are these people from?? I don't think I've powered the unit up since. Ed On 3/16/2013 8:21 AM, cfo wrote: On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 05:45:46 -0400, GandalfG8-YDxpq3io04c wrote: Hi All This messsage was a work in progress and was sent in error Please keep the info comming I did also get a X72 , for the 1-PPS conditioning. And was also bitten by the old firmware not supporting 1-PPS But after complaining a little bit. I got the seller to report the fw vers detected in mine. See 'bay #180791401271 I would love to be able to upgrade the FW , but haven't found any newer firmware or instructions. So the X72 is taking a rest for now ... CFO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
Hi The upgrade price sounds more like we swap out the guts than a firmware squirt. Does anybody know if the hardware in the new(er) versions is the same as the old(er) parts? Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I ran into the same problem a few years ago. I asked Symmetricom if the unit could be upgraded. They said it could - for the low, low price of only $1135. No, I didn't forget a decimal point in there. $1135.00. One Thousand, One Hundred, and Thirty-Five Dollars!! What planet are these people from?? I don't think I've powered the unit up since. Ed On 3/16/2013 8:21 AM, cfo wrote: On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 05:45:46 -0400, GandalfG8-YDxpq3io04c wrote: Hi All This messsage was a work in progress and was sent in error Please keep the info comming I did also get a X72 , for the 1-PPS conditioning. And was also bitten by the old firmware not supporting 1-PPS But after complaining a little bit. I got the seller to report the fw vers detected in mine. See 'bay #180791401271 I would love to be able to upgrade the FW , but haven't found any newer firmware or instructions. So the X72 is taking a rest for now ... CFO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
On 03/16/2013 04:41 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The upgrade price sounds more like we swap out the guts than a firmware squirt. Does anybody know if the hardware in the new(er) versions is the same as the old(er) parts? Rather, we don't want to bother with it, so we price it out of the market such that we can sell the new gear instead. This might not be the most customer friendly approach, but a business strategy that can be selected. Part of it will certainly be standard overhead anyway. It would be nice if they had a curtesy-price thought, and see it as a for of PR thing to keep customers happy. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
Hi If they toss out the old one (because the hardware doesn't work with the new firmware) and send you a new one (at the new price) then the numbers make some sort of sense. I have a suspicion that the price quoted is pretty close to the single piece price for a brand new unit. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 03/16/2013 04:41 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The upgrade price sounds more like we swap out the guts than a firmware squirt. Does anybody know if the hardware in the new(er) versions is the same as the old(er) parts? Rather, we don't want to bother with it, so we price it out of the market such that we can sell the new gear instead. This might not be the most customer friendly approach, but a business strategy that can be selected. Part of it will certainly be standard overhead anyway. It would be nice if they had a curtesy-price thought, and see it as a for of PR thing to keep customers happy. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Arbiter 1088B: Oncore receiver?
Fellow time-tickers, I've recently become the owner of an Arbiter Systems 1088B GPSDO. It's a neat unit -- four programmable (by jumpers) outputs for a variety of signals -- but it's acting a bit strange. Specifically: No reception of any satellites. I strongly suspect the receiver board, and it resembles a Motorola Oncore, but it's not like any Oncore I've ever seen (horizontal 10-pin header, no shield where a shield usually exists, etc.) Does anyone else own one of these beasties, and can perhaps provide a bit of guidance? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m Quid Malmborg in Plano... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Arbiter 1088B: Oncore receiver?
Maybe it is in position hold mode and must be reset? On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Bruce Lane kyr...@bluefeathertech.comwrote: Fellow time-tickers, I've recently become the owner of an Arbiter Systems 1088B GPSDO. It's a neat unit -- four programmable (by jumpers) outputs for a variety of signals -- but it's acting a bit strange. Specifically: No reception of any satellites. I strongly suspect the receiver board, and it resembles a Motorola Oncore, but it's not like any Oncore I've ever seen (horizontal 10-pin header, no shield where a shield usually exists, etc.) Does anyone else own one of these beasties, and can perhaps provide a bit of guidance? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m Quid Malmborg in Plano... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
Exothermic weld = CadWeld. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding On 3/16/2013 2:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 05:41:11AM -0400, gandal...@aol.com wrote: I've had an interesting week or so playing with an X72 and it turned out not to be quite as straightforward as I first expected. A google based X72 search of the list archives seems to throw up more questions than answers so I thought it might help a bit if I shared what I've learned, whilst hoping others might be able to fill in some missing gaps for me too :-) One of the attractions of the X72 was the option to use a 1PPS input for frequency conditioning, and one of the first things I learned was that this depends on the firmware version. This feature was introduced with firmware version 5.02 in 2003, and this bright and shiny looking just like new X72 turned out to have 25,000 hours on the clock and firmware version 4.10 from 2002. Lesson one, looks ain't everything :-( Did you open up the unit completely? If so, did/could you take/make some photos/scans of the electronics/components? best, Herbert Next problem, these are specified at shipment to have an accuracy of +/-5E-11 but obviously they age. Whilst Symmetricom does offer analogue and digital options for adjustment, more of which in a moment, there's no user option to properly adjust the startup frequency, as in the FE5680A for example, instead there's a flag that gets set to conveniently warn the user when it's time to send their X72 back to Symmetricom for a service. As received, the locked output frequency of this unit was 9.999,999,986,xx Mhz, the xx indicating digits still wandering after lock which may reflect more on the less than ideal antenna placement for the Thunderbolt providing the counter reference. When finally in a negotiated position to remove the do not remove warranty stickers both were found to cover access holes, one of which led nowhere but the other to a trimmer capacitor adjacent to the lamp assembly. Whether or not it was the intended purpose this did allow adjustment of the output frequency, unfortunately it ran out of steam at 9.999,999,992,xx MHz so was reset to where it started. There are two further options for frequency adjustment, not including the digitally adjustable CMOS outputs, one is a software command that allows an offset to be specified, based on the free running frequency and in steps of 2E-12, which does allow for reasonable adjustment relative to the startup frequency but resets every time power is removed The other is an anologue control input which can be varied from 0 to 5 volts and allows adjustment to a few parts in 10^11, but which sits at just over 4 volts to bring this one to 10MHz. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datum/Symmetricom X72 Rubidium
Hi Herbert After removing the warranty labels, I removed the top cover which is just held in place by spring fingers around its edges. It's back together at the moment as I have it running and leaving the cover off allows light into the rubidium assembly, but I will take some photographs next time I power it down. There isn't very much to see though and I'm not at this stage planning to dismantle it any further than that. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 16/03/2013 18:27:41 GMT Standard Time, herb...@13thfloor.at writes: Did you open up the unit completely? If so, did/could you take/make some photos/scans of the electronics/components? best, Herbert ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
Ah. Why bother with all that mess, 'specially if the ground rod is cad plated instead of copper. The right clamp is cheap, and not likely to start the whole surroundings on fire. yikes. There are codes for grounding for both electrical as well as lightning systems. Do not forget that separate grounds for the electrical system and the lightning system are not a good idea. Think a tenth of an ohm and a few kv... Don Don Martin A Flynn Exothermic weld = CadWeld. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding On 3/16/2013 2:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP53132A vs SR625
1) I paid quite a bit of money and I had it calibrated and fixed by SRS, and it still exhibits a significant frequency offset with a perfect reference and perfect DUT!!! SRS says a small frequency error is normal, well that prevents me from using the unit as a frequency counter, for me it's only useful as a relative display frequency counter. HP doesn't have such a frequency error, so no worries there. I worked with the guy who designed the HP53132A. He would never tolerate as normal a so-called small error. The term frequency counter brings to mind something that digitally counts zero crossings and should never have an error. First of all, even if that is all you do, it is still possible to screw it up. Secondly, counters have relied on analog interpolation even going back to the HP524 circa 1950. There is no theoretical basis of having zero error in this case, but the idea is that you display the number of digits that are commensurate with the worst case accuracy of your interpolator. Again, my colleague who designed the interpolator did very high quality work. I am pleased to learn that our stuff is better than the stuff from the company up the road. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998 (still working for Agilent!) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
With lightning it is the very high current and the fast rise time that gets you. So yes, a tenth of an ohm can develop 1 kV across it with a big direct hit. Having the best surge strip made won't help you if its cord and the output cords are all in a single heap together as they will nicely couple to each other, bypassing the protection. On 3/16/2013 2:45 PM, Don Latham wrote: Ah. Why bother with all that mess, 'specially if the ground rod is cad plated instead of copper. The right clamp is cheap, and not likely to start the whole surroundings on fire. yikes. There are codes for grounding for both electrical as well as lightning systems. Do not forget that separate grounds for the electrical system and the lightning system are not a good idea. Think a tenth of an ohm and a few kv... Don Don Martin A Flynn Exothermic weld = CadWeld. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding On 3/16/2013 2:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
Exothermic welding (Cadweld) is the usual method for attaching the down lead to the clad ground rod. Regards. Tom - Original Message - From: Don Latham d...@montana.com To: mafl...@theflynn.org; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
I know more about substation grounding, where exothermic welding is frequently used, although there are some approved mechanical clamps. On 3/16/2013 2:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: ground rods usually thin copper clad over steel. Better to use proper copper clad clamps with anticorrosion paste than to try to weld. Don Martin A Flynn On 3/10/2013 11:18 AM, Martin A Flynn wrote: Sorry about the blank messages - not sure why I could not reply to my own message... In any case, thanks to the help from kind folks on the list, the TS-2100L in in the rack at the N2MO amateur radio station at InfoAge. The N2MO team spent yesterday doing the prep work to mount a 27dB antenna on the gable end of the building, using 1/2 heliax for feed line, with a Polyphaser DGXZ + 06NFNF installed in the line before it enters the building. The antenna mount pipe and the Polyphaser are grounded via #2 copper cable that will be exothermic welded to the ground rod. Thanks again! Martin Flynn PS - Now that the precision time bug has bitten, the team, is considering a Rubidium standard! Precision time novice needing help ! We have chance to upgrade (replace) our existing TS-2100-L with a TS2100-GPS system with the rubidium option. What questions should we be asking the seller? *Is there a method to determine the lamp hours from the console? *Software vintage that corrects the 1PPS issue (or is it relevant)? While InfoAge is a huge site, it is not a huge budget! Martin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5681 - Release Date: 03/16/13 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Install
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Better check the electrical code in your area. They likely are quite specific about what you can and can't do with a proper ground connection. Copper / copper welding generally means brazing or soldering. Both are often prohibited due to the heat burst at the joint during a lightning hit. That surprised me a bit the first time I ran into it, but made sense once I dug out the explanation. I was going to say the same. But a true exothermic weld is generally allowed. But I personally would not trust it because it like I would a clamp. You are right in that soldering and brazing is never allowed. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP53132A vs SR625
What small error are we speaking about? The statement that SRS users have to tolerates a small error while HP users don't seems a little to general to me. IMHO we might be a bit more precise. Anyone who's already done an error analysis for - say - a 10MHz count and a comparison of the counters? In real life every type of equipment has it's domain, where it has it's specific advantage. Could it be, that's the case for these counters, too? Cheers Volker Am 16.03.2013 19:57, schrieb Rick Karlquist: 1) I paid quite a bit of money and I had it calibrated and fixed by SRS, and it still exhibits a significant frequency offset with a perfect reference and perfect DUT!!! SRS says a small frequency error is normal, well that prevents me from using the unit as a frequency counter, for me it's only useful as a relative display frequency counter. HP doesn't have such a frequency error, so no worries there. I worked with the guy who designed the HP53132A. He would never tolerate as normal a so-called small error. The term frequency counter brings to mind something that digitally counts zero crossings and should never have an error. First of all, even if that is all you do, it is still possible to screw it up. Secondly, counters have relied on analog interpolation even going back to the HP524 circa 1950. There is no theoretical basis of having zero error in this case, but the idea is that you display the number of digits that are commensurate with the worst case accuracy of your interpolator. Again, my colleague who designed the interpolator did very high quality work. I am pleased to learn that our stuff is better than the stuff from the company up the road. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998 (still working for Agilent!) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP53132A vs SR625
Hi The whole how to align the SR-620's thing has been gone over in great length (and very precisely) on the list. The bottom line is that Stanford's alignment procedure is not quite as good as it should / could be. Oddly enough, I don't remember seeing the residual offset in any brand new SR-620. I've only seen it on repaired units. My guess is that the factory tech's did a bit better alignment than the repair manual outlines. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 7:06 PM, Volker Esper ail...@t-online.de wrote: What small error are we speaking about? The statement that SRS users have to tolerates a small error while HP users don't seems a little to general to me. IMHO we might be a bit more precise. Anyone who's already done an error analysis for - say - a 10MHz count and a comparison of the counters? In real life every type of equipment has it's domain, where it has it's specific advantage. Could it be, that's the case for these counters, too? Cheers Volker Am 16.03.2013 19:57, schrieb Rick Karlquist: 1) I paid quite a bit of money and I had it calibrated and fixed by SRS, and it still exhibits a significant frequency offset with a perfect reference and perfect DUT!!! SRS says a small frequency error is normal, well that prevents me from using the unit as a frequency counter, for me it's only useful as a relative display frequency counter. HP doesn't have such a frequency error, so no worries there. I worked with the guy who designed the HP53132A. He would never tolerate as normal a so-called small error. The term frequency counter brings to mind something that digitally counts zero crossings and should never have an error. First of all, even if that is all you do, it is still possible to screw it up. Secondly, counters have relied on analog interpolation even going back to the HP524 circa 1950. There is no theoretical basis of having zero error in this case, but the idea is that you display the number of digits that are commensurate with the worst case accuracy of your interpolator. Again, my colleague who designed the interpolator did very high quality work. I am pleased to learn that our stuff is better than the stuff from the company up the road. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998 (still working for Agilent!) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP53132A vs SR625
Hi The 53132 is indeed a fine counter. It's got another flaw though - right at 10 MHz the resolution takes a dive. If you are doing time nut stuff, that may be a significant issue. Bob On Mar 16, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Volker: The HP HP53132A can measure frequency at the rate of 12 digits per second, that's way better than ordinary counters, but when measuring time interval it's the same as any other counter. The big disadvantage of the HP53132A in my opinion is it's user hostile menu system. http://www.prc68.com/I/TandFTE.shtml#HP51132 If you're going to be measuring frequency then this counter may make more sense than the SRS unit. The SR620 was designed to be a time interval counter, and that's what gets measured when working with precision frequency or time signals. It's great for this because it has a large number of digits. In addition there's a way to make 1,000 measurements and average them to increase the precision compared to a one shot measurement. The front panel is much much easier to use than the HP. http://www.prc68.com/I/TandFTE.shtml#SR620 Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Volker Esper wrote: What small error are we speaking about? The statement that SRS users have to tolerates a small error while HP users don't seems a little to general to me. IMHO we might be a bit more precise. Anyone who's already done an error analysis for - say - a 10MHz count and a comparison of the counters? In real life every type of equipment has it's domain, where it has it's specific advantage. Could it be, that's the case for these counters, too? Cheers Volker Am 16.03.2013 19:57, schrieb Rick Karlquist: 1) I paid quite a bit of money and I had it calibrated and fixed by SRS, and it still exhibits a significant frequency offset with a perfect reference and perfect DUT!!! SRS says a small frequency error is normal, well that prevents me from using the unit as a frequency counter, for me it's only useful as a relative display frequency counter. HP doesn't have such a frequency error, so no worries there. I worked with the guy who designed the HP53132A. He would never tolerate as normal a so-called small error. The term frequency counter brings to mind something that digitally counts zero crossings and should never have an error. First of all, even if that is all you do, it is still possible to screw it up. Secondly, counters have relied on analog interpolation even going back to the HP524 circa 1950. There is no theoretical basis of having zero error in this case, but the idea is that you display the number of digits that are commensurate with the worst case accuracy of your interpolator. Again, my colleague who designed the interpolator did very high quality work. I am pleased to learn that our stuff is better than the stuff from the company up the road. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998 (still working for Agilent!) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
