Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Bill quoted. “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.” Scotty in Star Trek The search for Spock. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "Fuqua, Bill L" To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual satellites. Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and more obvious, signal strengths. Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF energy. Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.” Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course. However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot intended to take in the first place if his goal is to take the vessel to a different destination. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Hi Missed one… On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: > I'm not for prohibiting ownership of as that would break a lot of companies > test programs including the one I work for as we have a spirent in a cage to > test LTE systems. And every avionics shop would be out of business > > But if the FCC catches someone USING a jammer to access to GPS i dont have a > problem with FCC throwing book at miscreant > > There is a big difference between unintentional interference and actively > disrupting the only publically available precision navigation and time source > > Keep a jammer up long enough near a cell tower and you can bring tower down > as well. Where do you think all those Tbolts come from. And because of GPS > you no longer need a Cs reference in the CO for clock as you have all those > flying clocks up there The whole Stratum 1, 2, 3 world is still alive and well in the CO world. In normal operation, everybody swims on time from upstream. You need: 1) GPS denial (hasn't happened yet, so rare) 2) CO with Stratum 1 as a possibility (rare, but they do exist). 3) CO looses sync over it's land lines (again, rare) The same holdover / maintenance process works there as well. Things have to be out for a while (days) to have much of an impact. Even then the main issue is a few more clicks on the line. The downstream stuff world will track the CO for a *long* time before anything truly looses lock. Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "J. Forster" wrote: > >> Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and >> guns, at least, and failed every time. >> >> If people want something badly enough, they will get it. >> >> Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it? >> >> MMV, >> >> -John >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> >>> We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing >>> and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is >>> most survivable >>> >>> That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should >>> be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As >>> most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look >>> at the specs from their Chinese suppliers. >>> >>> If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than >>> allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" wrote: >>> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual satellites. Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and more obvious, signal strengths. Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF energy. Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.” Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course. However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot intended to take in the first place if his goal is to take the vessel to a different destination. 73 Bill wa4lav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mai
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Hi Slow down a moment …. If the cell tower is CDMA then yes GPS will have an impact on it. If it's TDMA / GSM - not so much. If the cell tower is working properly, it'll go into holdover for at least 24 hours (and probably a *lot* more) before there is an issue. If the cell tower has an operator with >= 1/4 of a brain, they will have somebody out there within 4 to 8 hours. By 12 hours everything will be swapped out and checked (probably a lot less). At some point the guy may / will / should notice that the GPS in his car is going nuts. Well before 24 hours with no fix, it gets bumped up. Next tier *will* check their GPS. In comes the FCC (and likely others). If the jammer isn't found in 24 - 96 hours, in comes a backup mobile tower. If that's jammed as well, you loose cell service from one provider over a relatively small area. This happens all the time. It happened here twice within the last month. If it happens enough people switch to another provider. The world does not end because I can't text my buddies *right now*…. The TBolt's come from an early E-911 system. They don't do it that way anymore. The current thinking is that you put an aided GPS in all the phones. We have them because the system went out of service. --- Bob On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: > I'm not for prohibiting ownership of as that would break a lot of companies > test programs including the one I work for as we have a spirent in a cage to > test LTE systems. And every avionics shop would be out of business > > But if the FCC catches someone USING a jammer to access to GPS i dont have a > problem with FCC throwing book at miscreant > > There is a big difference between unintentional interference and actively > disrupting the only publically available precision navigation and time source > > Keep a jammer up long enough near a cell tower and you can bring tower down > as well. Where do you think all those Tbolts come from. And because of GPS > you no longer need a Cs reference in the CO for clock as you have all those > flying clocks up there > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "J. Forster" wrote: > >> Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and >> guns, at least, and failed every time. >> >> If people want something badly enough, they will get it. >> >> Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it? >> >> MMV, >> >> -John >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> >>> We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing >>> and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is >>> most survivable >>> >>> That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should >>> be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As >>> most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look >>> at the specs from their Chinese suppliers. >>> >>> If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than >>> allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" wrote: >>> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual satellites. Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and more obvious, signal strengths. Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF energy. Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.” Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. Howe
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
I'm not for prohibiting ownership of as that would break a lot of companies test programs including the one I work for as we have a spirent in a cage to test LTE systems. And every avionics shop would be out of business But if the FCC catches someone USING a jammer to access to GPS i dont have a problem with FCC throwing book at miscreant There is a big difference between unintentional interference and actively disrupting the only publically available precision navigation and time source Keep a jammer up long enough near a cell tower and you can bring tower down as well. Where do you think all those Tbolts come from. And because of GPS you no longer need a Cs reference in the CO for clock as you have all those flying clocks up there Sent from my iPhone On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "J. Forster" wrote: > Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and > guns, at least, and failed every time. > > If people want something badly enough, they will get it. > > Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it? > > MMV, > > -John > > = > > > > > >> We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing >> and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is >> most survivable >> >> That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should >> be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As >> most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look >> at the specs from their Chinese suppliers. >> >> If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than >> allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" wrote: >> >>> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas >>> and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce >>> believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The >>> problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS >>> spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times >>> to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far >>> from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual >>> satellites. >>> Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is >>> inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases >>> there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and >>> more obvious, signal strengths. >>> Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that >>> prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals >>> and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. >>> The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech >>> solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. >>> Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past >>> have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave >>> system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. >>> It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF >>> energy. >>> Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low >>> tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. >>> “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the >>> drain.” >>> Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most >>> reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would >>> be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data >>> would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual >>> constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course. >>> However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot >>> intended to take in the first place if his goal is to >>> take the vessel to a different destination. >>> 73 >>> Bill wa4lav >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rb standard questions
Hi On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Robert Roehrig wrote: > Recently acquired a LPRO-101 and have a few questions: > > 1) Does an Rb standard "deteriorate" with age alone or only with power > applied? There is nothing specific to an Rb that causes it to wear out sitting around. It does have all the normal electronics sort of issues, so yes they do break from things like blown electrolytic caps. Humidity will cause more "aging" when the power is off than when it's on, so aging rate is a toss up. > 2) From a cold start, how long does it normally take for the unit to > stabilize to its > final accuracy? What's your definition of final accuracy? Should be within 1x10^-9 in 10's of minutes Should be within 1x10^-10 within an hour Should be within 1x10^-11 within a day Keep in mind that the aging rate will drop off for a couple of months after it's turned on and that the ADEV at < 3 seconds is likely worse than 1x10^-11. That makes the "final" in the numbers above a bit vague. Best reference would be the average frequency at 48 hours. Temperature stability may be as loose as several parts in 10^10. If your device warms up as it turns on (small heatsink) you'll have to add that into the stability above. > 3) what is the typical life of such a unit? If it's run without a heat sink, about two years. If it's power off on the shelf, many decades. Run well cooled, > 10 years for 90% of the units Bob > TIA > Bob, K9EUI > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Hi Omega is a lane based system. You need to know your start point to keep track of where you are. That made small boat units impractical. Pre-GPS Loran was pretty much the only small boat option. Once cheap GPS came out, Loran sales in that market went to zero. Bob On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:57 AM, J. Forster wrote: > Well, OK, but I never saw a small, <$500 box that could be put on pleasure > boats, etc. and directly read out Lat/Long. Such things were available at > the local boating store for LORAN. > > -John > > ==. > > > > >> John, Omega did make it into the 'uP age' I briefly got involved in the >> 80's and my first patent was for using DSPs and software radio for an >> Omega development . The key thing was Omega was genuinely world wide >> from a small chain of transmitters and one of the important users had to >> do their navigation while staying underwater for weeks on end, even >> Loran had limitations never mind satellite. >> >> It might be the answer "the mystery Collins Ru" posting here, I remember >> similar items in airborne Omega receivers, the omega carrier frequencies >> were low but the receiver bandwidths were measured in mHz and phase >> error was critical hence the boxes I saw included similar references. >> >> Its rather painful to see all the warnings about GPS made 30 years ago >> having to be re addressed. I suspect Loran will not get a big revival, >> the important development since the '80s is probably cheap MEMS inertial >> measurement sensors that give a user a secure cheap independent >> accessory to integrate with GPS etc. Its not an alternative but a rather >> useful thing to merge into a system to help deal with spoofing or other >> signal loss, this page from Analog Devices shows prices and performance: >> >> http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/mems-inertial-measurement-units/products/index.html#iSensor_MEMS_Inertial_Measurement_Units >> >> There are other opportunistic navigation systems that try (tried?) other >> approaches such as Peter Duffett-Smith's Cursor system which I think is >> now in the hands of CSR. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> >>> -- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: "J. Forster" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing >>> >>> I'm not so convinced about this: >>> >>> "OMEGA was the primary means of radio navigation, world wide, from 1976 >>> to >>> 1997. ." >>> >>> There was LORAN-C, after all. >>> >>> And Omega was a CW, phase difference system, LORAN a pulse system. >>> >>> AFAIK, Omega never really made it into the uP age; LORAN certainly did. >>> >>> -John >>> >>> === >>> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rb standard questions
Life is variable. 10 years and the lamp voltage is the best clue. New 9-12V, mid life 3-9, late 3 and below. That doesn't mean it won't work but gives you a hint and the voltages are approx. Use a Hz meter to measure it. Boy the sitting around question. I think they do deteriorate but will look forward to others comments. I have certainly see the RB plate out on the glass and like others recovered the unit by heating the glass up with a heat gun. Typical life 7 years in reality much longer. I think warranty was 4. Regards Paul On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Robert Roehrig wrote: > Recently acquired a LPRO-101 and have a few questions: > > 1) Does an Rb standard "deteriorate" with age alone or only with power > applied? > 2) From a cold start, how long does it normally take for the unit to > stabilize to its > final accuracy? > 3) what is the typical life of such a unit? > TIA > Bob, K9EUI > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Rb standard questions
Recently acquired a LPRO-101 and have a few questions: 1) Does an Rb standard "deteriorate" with age alone or only with power applied? 2) From a cold start, how long does it normally take for the unit to stabilize to its final accuracy? 3) what is the typical life of such a unit? TIA Bob, K9EUI ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru
Not true, Many aircraft OMEGA / VLF navigation systems used Rb clocks. Most if not all the FRKs on the surplus market with the 10MHz output on the multipole connector rather than a SMA came from OMEGA / VLF units. I used to fix the systems. Robert G8RPI. From: Max Robinson To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 23:24 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru If they needed an airborne rubidium standard it must have been for digitally scrambled communications. That has been around since the 60s. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "Tim Shoppa" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru > Googling a little bit, I find several references to a Collins rubidium > package AFS-81 for airborne survivable VLF communications in the 60's > (predating this unit by maybe two decades). Still trying to wrap my head > around why that would need rubidium unless it was an airborne WWVB > replacement or something. > > Googling also turned up the modern Rockwell-Collins 617A-1 VLF amp which > seems to be a dinky solid state unit that is rated at a third of a > megawatt. Still having a hard time wrapping my mind around that! Maybe I'm > off by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude or the picture is just the control head, > the real amplifier is the size of a building. A third of a megawatt must > be > the size of the fixed transmitters used for VLF submarine communications. > > Tim N3QE > > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> maybe I should read things more often .. yikes I need a vacation >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:01 AM, George Dubovsky >> wrote: >> >> > Well, the outside label does claim it was made by GENRAD... ;-) >> > >> > 73, >> > >> > geo - n4ua >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Pete Lancashire < >> p...@petelancashire.com >> > >wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111617808980322733757/albums/5890266601277045697 >> > > >> > > The board with the edge connector was inside the same bag the >> > > connector was in, the bag was taped to the unit. >> > > >> > > I pulled the ends off first, but was immediately stopped with foam, >> > > it >> is >> > > glued in place. >> > > Then when I finally got the lid with all the screws off, all there >> > > is, >> is >> > > one board covered in potting compound. >> > > >> > > The compound breaks away pretty easily. One can see where a couple >> parts >> > > were >> > > replaced and there soft RTV was used. There are two precision >> > > resistors >> > in >> > > that area. >> > > >> > > The biggest surprise is the General Radio logo on the board ! >> > > >> > > goo.gl/1XGG2F >> > > ___ >> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> > > To unsubscribe, go to >> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > > and follow the instructions there. >> > > >> > ___ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming
It seems to me that GPS has been oversold as the be all, end all system that made all other systems obsolete and GPS has become all but an indespensible utility. Reports like this, could well be used to promote a backup, like LORAN or eLORAN, just as public buildings have backup generators. YMMV, -John == > > http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582288-satellite-positioning-data-are-vitalbut-signal-surprisingly-easy-disrupt-out?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/outofsight > > -Bill > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru
"PS has anyone done any PIC Have Quick stuff?" If I told you I'd have to shoot you ;-) Robert. From: Brooke Clarke To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 23:58 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru Hi: The military UHF voice radio scrambling depends on accurate time, hence the Have Quick (and follow on programs) time transfer standard. Rb standards were used to maintain that time in the early days. The O-1814 Rb standard was used to keep time on the ground accurate so that when a plane flew in from far away the crypto would be in sync. http://www.prc68.com/I/O1814.shtml PS has anyone done any PIC Have Quick stuff? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi: > > I think (3). See: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACAMO > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Wave_Emergency_Network -> some converted > to DGPS > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.PRC68.com > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > > Robert Atkinson wrote: >> Hi Tim, >> Three possible reasons for needing a Rb standard, >> 1/ Coherent detection with a local clock >> 2/ Hyperbolic navigation (local reference improves the fix and holdover) >> 3/ Secure communications. >> >> Robert G8RPI >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Tim Shoppa >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 15:25 >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More pictures of the mystery Collins Ru >> >> Googling a little bit, I find several references to a Collins rubidium >> package AFS-81 for airborne survivable VLF communications in the 60's >> (predating this unit by maybe two decades). Still trying to wrap my head >> around why that would need rubidium unless it was an airborne WWVB >> replacement or something. >> >> Googling also turned up the modern Rockwell-Collins 617A-1 VLF amp which >> seems to be a dinky solid state unit that is rated at a third of a >> megawatt. Still having a hard time wrapping my mind around that! Maybe I'm >> off by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude or the picture is just the control head, >> the real amplifier is the size of a building. A third of a megawatt must be >> the size of the fixed transmitters used for VLF submarine communications. >> >> Tim N3QE >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Pete Lancashire >> wrote: >> >>> maybe I should read things more often .. yikes I need a vacation >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:01 AM, George Dubovsky >>> wrote: >>> Well, the outside label does claim it was made by GENRAD... ;-) 73, geo - n4ua On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Pete Lancashire < >>> p...@petelancashire.com > wrote: > >>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111617808980322733757/albums/5890266601277045697 > The board with the edge connector was inside the same bag the > connector was in, the bag was taped to the unit. > > I pulled the ends off first, but was immediately stopped with foam, it >>> is > glued in place. > Then when I finally got the lid with all the screws off, all there is, >>> is > one board covered in potting compound. > > The compound breaks away pretty easily. One can see where a couple >>> parts > were > replaced and there soft RTV was used. There are two precision resistors in > that area. > > The biggest surprise is the General Radio logo on the board ! > > goo.gl/1XGG2F > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and guns, at least, and failed every time. If people want something badly enough, they will get it. Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it? MMV, -John = > We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing > and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is > most survivable > > That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should > be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As > most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look > at the specs from their Chinese suppliers. > > If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than > allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" wrote: > >> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas >> and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce >> believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The >> problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS >> spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times >> to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far >> from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual >> satellites. >> Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is >> inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases >> there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and >> more obvious, signal strengths. >> Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that >> prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals >> and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. >> The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech >> solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. >> Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past >> have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave >> system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. >> It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF >> energy. >> Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low >> tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. >> âThe more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the >> drain.â >> Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most >> reliable way to do it would be an âinside jobâ where a device would >> be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data >> would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual >> constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course. >> However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot >> intended to take in the first place if his goal is to >> take the vessel to a different destination. >> 73 >> Bill wa4lav >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582288-satellite-positioning-data-are-vitalbut-signal-surprisingly-easy-disrupt-out?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/outofsight -Bill ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is most survivable That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look at the specs from their Chinese suppliers. If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil Sent from my iPhone On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" wrote: > The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas and > sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce believable > position data that would take a vessel off course. The problem with this > concept is that the person in charge of the GPS spoofing hardware has to know > exactly where the vessel is at all times to start with and other vessels some > distance away, and not very far from the target vessel would get > contradicting signals from the virtual satellites. > Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is > inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases there > would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and more > obvious, signal strengths. > Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that prevent > reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals and sound > the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources. > The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech solutions. > Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech. > Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past have > been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave system that is > intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain. It was defeated by > using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF energy. > Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low tech > ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat. “The more > they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.” > Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most > reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would be put on > board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data would be received > by the device and then it would produce a virtual constellation of satellites > that would direct the vessel off course. However, the programmer would have > to know the course that the pilot intended to take in the first place if his > goal is to > take the vessel to a different destination. > 73 > Bill wa4lav > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] TFL Rubidium Standard
Hi, I bought a TFL Rubidium Standard model TF4030B and the signal generated if of 5 MHz. This equipment is good? The TFL is a good company? The 5 MHz signal can turn into 10 MHz? Someone have the documentation about this equipment? Thanks for the help. Best Regards Euclides Chuma ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing- oops
Oops: >From what I've been told privately and off the record, the vacuum was not a vacuum, but was filled with political gas. Sorry, -John == > From what I've been told privately and off the record, the vacuum was not > filled with political gas. > > YMMV, > > -John > > = > > > > [snip] >> Indeed, all of this was gone over *many* times in the 80's. Those >> involved >> were *very* knowledgeable about all of these systems and their >> weaknesses. >> None of the decisions we are living with were made in a vacuum or >> without >> a lot of discussion. >> >> Bob > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
>From what I've been told privately and off the record, the vacuum was not filled with political gas. YMMV, -John = [snip] > Indeed, all of this was gone over *many* times in the 80's. Those involved > were *very* knowledgeable about all of these systems and their weaknesses. > None of the decisions we are living with were made in a vacuum or without > a lot of discussion. > > Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Well, OK, but I never saw a small, <$500 box that could be put on pleasure boats, etc. and directly read out Lat/Long. Such things were available at the local boating store for LORAN. -John ==. > John, Omega did make it into the 'uP age' I briefly got involved in the > 80's and my first patent was for using DSPs and software radio for an > Omega development . The key thing was Omega was genuinely world wide > from a small chain of transmitters and one of the important users had to > do their navigation while staying underwater for weeks on end, even > Loran had limitations never mind satellite. > > It might be the answer "the mystery Collins Ru" posting here, I remember > similar items in airborne Omega receivers, the omega carrier frequencies > were low but the receiver bandwidths were measured in mHz and phase > error was critical hence the boxes I saw included similar references. > > Its rather painful to see all the warnings about GPS made 30 years ago > having to be re addressed. I suspect Loran will not get a big revival, > the important development since the '80s is probably cheap MEMS inertial > measurement sensors that give a user a secure cheap independent > accessory to integrate with GPS etc. Its not an alternative but a rather > useful thing to merge into a system to help deal with spoofing or other > signal loss, this page from Analog Devices shows prices and performance: > > http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/mems-inertial-measurement-units/products/index.html#iSensor_MEMS_Inertial_Measurement_Units > > There are other opportunistic navigation systems that try (tried?) other > approaches such as Peter Duffett-Smith's Cursor system which I think is > now in the hands of CSR. > > Regards > David > > >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >> From: "J. Forster" >> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing >> >> I'm not so convinced about this: >> >> "OMEGA was the primary means of radio navigation, world wide, from 1976 >> to >> 1997. ." >> >> There was LORAN-C, after all. >> >> And Omega was a CW, phase difference system, LORAN a pulse system. >> >> AFAIK, Omega never really made it into the uP age; LORAN certainly did. >> >> -John >> >> === >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
Hi On Jul 29, 2013, at 4:45 AM, David wrote: > John, Omega did make it into the 'uP age' I briefly got involved in the 80's > and my first patent was for using DSPs and software radio for an Omega > development . The key thing was Omega was genuinely world wide from a small > chain of transmitters and one of the important users had to do their > navigation while staying underwater for weeks on end, even Loran had > limitations never mind satellite. Loran-C was always a poor bet for navigating in the southern hemisphere. > > It might be the answer "the mystery Collins Ru" posting here, I remember > similar items in airborne Omega receivers, the omega carrier frequencies were > low but the receiver bandwidths were measured in mHz and phase error was > critical hence the boxes I saw included similar references. > > Its rather painful to see all the warnings about GPS made 30 years ago having > to be re addressed. Indeed, all of this was gone over *many* times in the 80's. Those involved were *very* knowledgeable about all of these systems and their weaknesses. None of the decisions we are living with were made in a vacuum or without a lot of discussion. Bob > I suspect Loran will not get a big revival, the important development since > the '80s is probably cheap MEMS inertial measurement sensors that give a user > a secure cheap independent accessory to integrate with GPS etc. Its not an > alternative but a rather useful thing to merge into a system to help deal > with spoofing or other signal loss, this page from Analog Devices shows > prices and performance: > > http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/mems-inertial-measurement-units/products/index.html#iSensor_MEMS_Inertial_Measurement_Units > > There are other opportunistic navigation systems that try (tried?) other > approaches such as Peter Duffett-Smith's Cursor system which I think is now > in the hands of CSR. > > Regards > David > > >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >> From: "J. Forster" >> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing >> >> I'm not so convinced about this: >> >> "OMEGA was the primary means of radio navigation, world wide, from 1976 to >> 1997. ." >> >> There was LORAN-C, after all. >> >> And Omega was a CW, phase difference system, LORAN a pulse system. >> >> AFAIK, Omega never really made it into the uP age; LORAN certainly did. >> >> -John >> >> === >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
They're fine for playing with robots and steering rockets, but they're absolutely useless for navigating planes, cars and automobiles, as they drift tens of degrees per hour. No. I said deliberately said "secure cheap independent accessory to integrate with GPS" if you are proposing something different then thats a different answer but when it comes to "navigating planes, cars and automobiles" they are here now and will become more obvious with time, I carefully said integration with GPS etc, that's the key. David ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
In message <51f62b9d.5020...@braw.co.uk>, David writes: >having to be re addressed. I suspect Loran will not get a big revival, >the important development since the '80s is probably cheap MEMS inertial >measurement sensors [...] They're fine for playing with robots and steering rockets, but they're absolutely useless for navigating planes, cars and automobiles, as they drift tens of degrees per hour. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing
John, Omega did make it into the 'uP age' I briefly got involved in the 80's and my first patent was for using DSPs and software radio for an Omega development . The key thing was Omega was genuinely world wide from a small chain of transmitters and one of the important users had to do their navigation while staying underwater for weeks on end, even Loran had limitations never mind satellite. It might be the answer "the mystery Collins Ru" posting here, I remember similar items in airborne Omega receivers, the omega carrier frequencies were low but the receiver bandwidths were measured in mHz and phase error was critical hence the boxes I saw included similar references. Its rather painful to see all the warnings about GPS made 30 years ago having to be re addressed. I suspect Loran will not get a big revival, the important development since the '80s is probably cheap MEMS inertial measurement sensors that give a user a secure cheap independent accessory to integrate with GPS etc. Its not an alternative but a rather useful thing to merge into a system to help deal with spoofing or other signal loss, this page from Analog Devices shows prices and performance: http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/mems-inertial-measurement-units/products/index.html#iSensor_MEMS_Inertial_Measurement_Units There are other opportunistic navigation systems that try (tried?) other approaches such as Peter Duffett-Smith's Cursor system which I think is now in the hands of CSR. Regards David -- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Forster" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing I'm not so convinced about this: "OMEGA was the primary means of radio navigation, world wide, from 1976 to 1997. ." There was LORAN-C, after all. And Omega was a CW, phase difference system, LORAN a pulse system. AFAIK, Omega never really made it into the uP age; LORAN certainly did. -John === ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
