Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article
We are using Wenzel with two filters see attached if it will pass. 20 Mhz is down more than 60 db and 5 MHz 55. Distribution Amp takes care of the rest. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/12/2014 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgmin...@mediacombb.net writes: Just a few days ago, I ordered parts to build a couple of the Wenzel 2-diode doublers, described in the same article as your full-wave diode doubler, just in time to discover them on Ebay (via slow boat from China), item# 171511157159. I inspected the components and layout in the picture in the listing, and it certainly looks like the Wenzel FWB doubler. At $9.99 USD, the price is cheap enough, especially since you get SMA connectors on both ends. Might have to do a bit of solder work on the SMA connectors if you want to put it into a little box. The listing on the doubler on Ebay says that the low end is 10MHz, but I'll bet that it will get down to 5MHz quite easily If there's any trouble handling a 5MHz input, you could easily use a lower frequency ferrite for the balun and make it work. As you suggest, a BPF on the output and maybe a bit of amplification to get the level up to a usable level should get you a fairly clean 10 MHz. Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Doubler.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Efratom/Datum Starloc II
Hi Paul, I haven't used the Starloc II, so can't offer any direct help/advice, but I did find manuals for the Starloc II and Starloc II plus when searching for Starloc-Lite data a few years ago. As always I hoarded what I found, which makes this your lucky day rather than mine as I never did find a Starloc-Lite manual:-) Aside from proving the Motorola GPS modules were ok stand alone I never got any response out of the Lites whatsoever, these are PCB based units presumably for OEM use, and put them aside for the later that never comes. I'm intrigued though that TBoltMon will talk to the Starloc II as I'm pretty sure this also uses a Motorola GPS module, perhaps a UTplus, so I wouldn't have expected it to be all that close to a Tbolt. However, from just looking at the manuals the Datum Timekeeper firmware interface seems to be based on the Trimble TSIP protocol, or vice versa:-), so this might explain it. Manuals attached, good luck, any problems with the files let me know and I'll try again. NB, manual sent direct but at 1.3MB zipped file is too big for the list, can upload to Didier's site if anyone else would like a copy. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 13/11/2014 02:00:02 GMT Standard Time, ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com writes: I'm dusting off one of my GPSDO here, and find that I do not have the manual or the software for this Efratom/Datum Starloc II. With the Datum/Efratom/Symmetricom/Microsemi transitions (I may have missed one or two...) I don't know if any info is even still available from Microsemi. Little is to be found elsewhere on the web. This unit was mentioned once or twice in the past on the list, but doesn't seem to have been too popular. Thing is, it appears to be a Thunderbolt clone (more or less) as TBoltMon will talk to it. Lady Heather on the other hand, will crash or hang and makes the Starloc hang too. It quits sending packets and refuses to respond to further input, requiring a power cycle. I havent traced which packet is killing it yet though (using 3.12 version). Does anyone have any docs, software, or other info? I would much appreciate it. Thanks! Regards, Paul - K9MR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle
I would like a copy of the article please. cheers, Graham ve3gtc planoph...@aei.ca On 2014-11-13 00:47, Don Latham wrote: I digitized the first 2011 article to hand, the one in Jan-Feb; it's a smaller article, and not as elegant as the later one. Anyone interested can email me off-list. You're allowed to have a copy for your own use, just can't re-publish. Don Jim Sanford I'm a member, and the article is not there -- just the Excel spreadsheet and a Word document of the parts list. Too bad, I have a handful of 5 MHzx TCXOs. I may have hardcopy of the issue, will have to dig for it. Jim wb4...@amsat.org On 11/12/2014 3:34 PM, Dave M wrote: I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not the article itself. Guess I need to be a paying member to get the article. The only files in the download are the XLS file for calculating the filter values, and the parts list. It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings, filename 3x11_Roos.zip titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a Low Spurious Frequency Doubler Dave M John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote: Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the article. None of them were able to download much or anything from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members. I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first. -73 john c roos k6iql ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] My NTGS50AA failed
Hi Ignacio I'm sure removing the oscillator would make your faultfinding much more straightforward. When I removed mine I started out quite convinced I wouldn't be able to do it, even with the solder mostly removed from around the pins they were obviously quite a tight fit and all I had available at that time was a plunger type solder sucker and desoldering braid, as the bits on my old Pace desoldering kit were well past their best. The answer basically was lots of braid, lots of patience, and resisting like crazy any temptation to pull against a hole that wasn't fully released, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it that way again in a hurry. The desoldering gun I use now would make it easier but the holes are really a bit small for those oscillator pins. The good news though is that the connectors are there as a back up and fitting them definitely makes it more versatile. I had considered repeating the performance on another NTGS50AA and/or NTBW50AA, I really think I should but so far haven't found the courage:-) I think previous checks for 1PPS outputs might have been limited to the external connectors but it would make sense if it was available somewhere on the PCB, I'll try to get one powered up later and check your findings, if I can find a bit of space that us amongst the usual chaos! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 13/11/2014 01:11:30 GMT Standard Time, eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es writes: Hi Nigel, Thank you for the suggestions, I was trying to avoid the OCXO removal but I think that now it must be done. I was also playing with the idea of populating the connectors so an OCXO exchange could be easily made, this makes possible to try various oscillators. Meanwhile I has been probing and measuring a lot of points and by chance I found a very interesting thing: Probing TP33 (which is close to the Trimble chip (U2) and directly connected to pin 76) there is a 1PPS, 10 us wide signal. I've checked it and appears to be synchronous with the 1/2 PPS output so maybe it can be routed to an output, probably I'll replace the 1/2 PPS with it, using the existing drive circuit and connector since it is very straightforward. My only concern is if this signal only is there during the anomalous condition that I have now, I have to retest it after fixing it. I had asked several times if anybody had located a 1PPS signal on these units, but the responses were negative and I had not probed systematically the board before. Also I'm taking notes of the signals found and I'll try to make a partial schematic at least with the EFC circuitry. When I fix it I'll clean the notes and figures and I'll upload it to some place. Best regards, Ignacio El 12/11/2014 a las 11:47, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I have removed a faulty oscillator from one of these, not one of my more relaxed moments and quite amazed when the board emerged totally undamaged, but proof at least that it can be done:-) With the oscillator removed there's access to two sets of connector pads that will either accept SMA or SMB connectors and after conducting tests on the original oscillator via flying leads just soldered to the board I decided not to fit a replacement to the board after all but to fit a couple of SMB connectors to make the setup more versatile, and to avoid the possibility of having to remove another oscillator in the future:-) Another advantage of these pads is that if the board does get damaged removing the oscillator they can still be used as an alternative. The connectors take the 10MHz from the oscillator into the board and the EFC control voltage out from the board to the oscillator, now there's a surprise:-), and oscillator power can be completely external if required. From this it would seem that the reference supply from the oscillator itself is not used in practice, certainly not in the offboard case anyway. As others have suggested it seems likely your problem may not be the oscillator itself, but it still might be worth removing anyway to make testing and fault finding more straightforward. The maximum positive excursion of the NTGS50AA should be 6 volts, not 5 as you're seeing, and another indication it might be worth removing the oscillator to see how the board behaves stand alone. I've not seen what seemed to be the repeated attempts at lock that you mentioned previously, but then I wasn't even aware for a long time that the control voltage could drive below 3 volts as well as above it:-) This is my note from previous observation of my faulty unit - When first powered it brings up all LEDs and then switches to a green LED for a few seconds and then amber. It starts a self survey and acquisition process with all appearing ok, and the DAC voltage reported
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article
Hi all, I can suggest a different solution I have tested to have some important improvement. First, the lower phase shift sensitivity with the use of a low pass filter in conjunction with two notch filters instead the high Q band pass filter, second the unity gain to avoid a 13/20 dB amplifier to restore the original power level. You can find in the link all the test we have done. http://www.timeok.it/files/high_performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf I hope this can hep. Luciano www.timeok.it On Thu 13/11/14 10:15 AM , Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: We are using Wenzel with two filters see attached if it will pass. 20 Mhz is down more than 60 db and 5 MHz 55. Distribution Amp takes care of the rest. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/12/2014 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgmin...@mediacombb.net writes: Just a few days ago, I ordered parts to build a couple of the Wenzel 2-diode doublers, described in the same article as your full-wave diode doubler, just in time to discover them on Ebay (via slow boat from China), item# 171511157159. I inspected the components and layout in the picture in the listing, and it certainly looks like the Wenzel FWB doubler. At $9.99 USD, the price is cheap enough, especially since you get SMA connectors on both ends. Might have to do a bit of solder work on the SMA connectors if you want to put it into a little box. The listing on the doubler on Ebay says that the low end is 10MHz, but I'll bet that it will get down to 5MHz quite easily If there's any trouble handling a 5MHz input, you could easily use a lower frequency ferrite for the balun and make it work. As you suggest, a BPF on the output and maybe a bit of amplification to get the level up to a usable level should get you a fairly clean 10 MHz. Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [1] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [2] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article
Luciano, This looks very nice. However, the inductors are custom made. It would be nice to have a off the shelf parts solution so it can be made easily. Any ideas ? -George, N2FGX On 11/13/2014 08:39 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Hi all, I can suggest a different solution I have tested to have some important improvement. First, the lower phase shift sensitivity with the use of a low pass filter in conjunction with two notch filters instead the high Q band pass filter, second the unity gain to avoid a 13/20 dB amplifier to restore the original power level. You can find in the link all the test we have done. http://www.timeok.it/files/high_performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf I hope this can hep. Luciano www.timeok.it On Thu 13/11/14 10:15 AM , Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: We are using Wenzel with two filters see attached if it will pass. 20 Mhz is down more than 60 db and 5 MHz 55. Distribution Amp takes care of the rest. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/12/2014 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgmin...@mediacombb.net writes: Just a few days ago, I ordered parts to build a couple of the Wenzel 2-diode doublers, described in the same article as your full-wave diode doubler, just in time to discover them on Ebay (via slow boat from China), item# 171511157159. I inspected the components and layout in the picture in the listing, and it certainly looks like the Wenzel FWB doubler. At $9.99 USD, the price is cheap enough, especially since you get SMA connectors on both ends. Might have to do a bit of solder work on the SMA connectors if you want to put it into a little box. The listing on the doubler on Ebay says that the low end is 10MHz, but I'll bet that it will get down to 5MHz quite easily If there's any trouble handling a 5MHz input, you could easily use a lower frequency ferrite for the balun and make it work. As you suggest, a BPF on the output and maybe a bit of amplification to get the level up to a usable level should get you a fairly clean 10 MHz. Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [1] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [2] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Things your mother (or FEI) didn't tell you about FE series oscillators
Hi Skip, Seeing as how you have spent some time poking around inside FE-5680s maybe you might be able to help with a problem I have with one. A while back I purchased two 5380As that where reputed to be new they are marked with 10MHZ OPTION 57 and would seem to match you description of the Old FE-5680A. Unlike one I had purchased earlier they are mounted on a piece of aluminium plate about 6mm thick. One of them starts up and works like a champ but on the other one the oscillator that I believe feeds the synthesiser, the one on the second card with the thermistor soldered onto it, does not seem to start. I do see a 50MHz (measured on a scope so could be the proper 50.255MHz) signal coming from the physics package. Any idea what I should look for? I guess one of the alternatives would be to find a parts on that has some other problem. I also noted that on these there is no insulation around the lamp, is that normal? My first one which would seem to match your description of the later version does have some insulation around the end of the lamp. Paul. On 2014-11-10 1:24 AM, Skip Withrow wrote: Hello time-nuts, I have spent a lot of time recently with Frequency Electronics, Inc. (FEI) oscillators including the FE-5680A, FE-5680B, FE-5650A, and FE405B and just wanted to pass on some of my findings. Not everything I am including here is new, but figured I would include the informattion for the sake of completeness. As already known, there are a bunch of different variations on some of the oscillators. Here is kind of a quick rundown: 1. The 'old' FE-5650A - This unit used a 50.255 MHz VCXO and placed the synthesizer outside the physics PLL. This unit could be programmed over a wide range of frequencies and is great if you need an oddball output. The digital board in the unit has the two small pushbutton switches and the nearby 5-pin connector for serial communications. 2. The 'new' FE-5650A - This unit has the same physical construction, but the circuit functionalyity is quite different. It uses a 60 MHz VCXO and the DDS is inside the physics control loop. The output is divided from the 60 MHz. Many of these units that came from the telecom industry have 15MHz output. Unit has serial communications on pins 8 9 of the DB-9 connector. 3. The 'old' FE-5680A - This unit has a different physical footprint than the 5650A, but virtually the same circuit. Again uses the 50.255 MHz VCXO and has the programmable synthesizer that can be tuned over a wide range. Circuit board has the same two push botton switches and 5-pin serial connector. Many of these units only have a 1pps output (they came off Motorola cell boards). 4. The 'new' FE-5680A - This was the popular, inexpensive unit that was available a year or two ago. Unit uses the newer 60 MHz VCXO architecture and has serial communications via pins 8 9 on the DB-9. 5. The FE-5680B - This appears to be a VERY close cousin to the new 5650A and 5680A. It is in the 5680 physical package, but has a compact DB-15 (think VGA) connector. Unit only needs single +15V supply. 6. The FE-405B - This is a crystal oscillator that is the same physical package as the 5650A. It has a 15 MHz output. The interface is the same as the FE-5650A (except no LOCK signal), including the capability to communicate over the serial interface to change its frequency. TUNING THE NEWER UNITS Now for the new information. Tuning the units with the 60 MHz VCXO has been published (see the FEI document that is archived in several places) and uses several commands to read and write a 32-bit command value. However, only the tuning sensitivity for the FE-5680A has only been published that I am aware of. FE-5680A - The tuning sensitivity of the FE-5680A is 6.8126x10E-13 for the LSB. The command value runs the full range from 00 00 00 00 to FF FF FF FF. The value is 2's complement with positive values driving the frequency higher and negative values lowering the frequency. Larger values may unlock the unit and the positive and negative values may be different (depends on how well the VCXO is centered). FE-5650A - The tuning sensitivity of the FE-5650A is 1.4900x10E-17 for the LSB. Sounds great, but wait, turns out it does not have any more resolution than the 5680A. It takes a 45,722 step of the command register to step the DDS. So, it retains the same 6.8126x10E-13 actual minimum step of the oscillator. Also, the minimum value of the control register is F0 00 00 01, maximum value is 0F FF FF FF. FE-5680B - The tuning sensitivity of the FE-5680B is 3.7248x10E-16 for the LSB. Same situation as the 5650A above, but the are 1829 counts per DDS step. Minimum value is F0 00 00 01, maximum value is 0F FF FF FF, same as the 5650A. FE-405B - The tuning sensitivity of the FE-405B is in the neighborhood of 1.143x10E-14. Minimum value is F7 33 33 34, and maximum value is 08 CC CC CC. FINDING THE RIGHT TUNING WORD So, if you know how far off frequency
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle
Is that the A Two Diode Frequency Doubler article by John Pivnichny? DaveD On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Don Latham wrote: I digitized the first 2011 article to hand, the one in Jan-Feb; it's a smaller article, and not as elegant as the later one. Anyone interested can email me off-list. You're allowed to have a copy for your own use, just can't re-publish. Don Jim Sanford I'm a member, and the article is not there -- just the Excel spreadsheet and a Word document of the parts list. Too bad, I have a handful of 5 MHzx TCXOs. I may have hardcopy of the issue, will have to dig for it. Jim wb4...@amsat.org On 11/12/2014 3:34 PM, Dave M wrote: I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not the article itself. Guess I need to be a paying member to get the article. The only files in the download are the XLS file for calculating the filter values, and the parts list. It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings, filename 3x11_Roos.zip titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a Low Spurious Frequency Doubler Dave M John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote: Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the article. None of them were able to download much or anything from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members. I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first. -73 john c roos k6iql ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] strange carrier
I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] My NTGS50AA failed
Hello Nigel, Finally I got enough courage and removed the OCXO, you know what kind of task it is.. Fortunately I didn't spoiled the PCB so I'll install 2 smb connectors in the provided places, I don't want to return there if I need to change the oscillator. Well, the oscillator is ok, this is in some way bad news because the oscillator is easily replaceable, and the EFC voltage remains stuck on 5.02 V. Now I'll test the quad op-amp and the related parts. If they are ok the problem is in the Xilinx chip, something that cannot be replaced unless I get parts donor, even that way is very problematic since it is a 80 pin chip. I'll continue posting my findings. Best regards, Ignacio El 13/11/2014 a las 12:03, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I'm sure removing the oscillator would make your faultfinding much more straightforward. When I removed mine I started out quite convinced I wouldn't be able to do it, even with the solder mostly removed from around the pins they were obviously quite a tight fit and all I had available at that time was a plunger type solder sucker and desoldering braid, as the bits on my old Pace desoldering kit were well past their best. The answer basically was lots of braid, lots of patience, and resisting like crazy any temptation to pull against a hole that wasn't fully released, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it that way again in a hurry. The desoldering gun I use now would make it easier but the holes are really a bit small for those oscillator pins. The good news though is that the connectors are there as a back up and fitting them definitely makes it more versatile. I had considered repeating the performance on another NTGS50AA and/or NTBW50AA, I really think I should but so far haven't found the courage:-) I think previous checks for 1PPS outputs might have been limited to the external connectors but it would make sense if it was available somewhere on the PCB, I'll try to get one powered up later and check your findings, if I can find a bit of space that us amongst the usual chaos! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 13/11/2014 01:11:30 GMT Standard Time, eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es writes: Hi Nigel, Thank you for the suggestions, I was trying to avoid the OCXO removal but I think that now it must be done. I was also playing with the idea of populating the connectors so an OCXO exchange could be easily made, this makes possible to try various oscillators. Meanwhile I has been probing and measuring a lot of points and by chance I found a very interesting thing: Probing TP33 (which is close to the Trimble chip (U2) and directly connected to pin 76) there is a 1PPS, 10 us wide signal. I've checked it and appears to be synchronous with the 1/2 PPS output so maybe it can be routed to an output, probably I'll replace the 1/2 PPS with it, using the existing drive circuit and connector since it is very straightforward. My only concern is if this signal only is there during the anomalous condition that I have now, I have to retest it after fixing it. I had asked several times if anybody had located a 1PPS signal on these units, but the responses were negative and I had not probed systematically the board before. Also I'm taking notes of the signals found and I'll try to make a partial schematic at least with the EFC circuitry. When I fix it I'll clean the notes and figures and I'll upload it to some place. Best regards, Ignacio El 12/11/2014 a las 11:47, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I have removed a faulty oscillator from one of these, not one of my more relaxed moments and quite amazed when the board emerged totally undamaged, but proof at least that it can be done:-) With the oscillator removed there's access to two sets of connector pads that will either accept SMA or SMB connectors and after conducting tests on the original oscillator via flying leads just soldered to the board I decided not to fit a replacement to the board after all but to fit a couple of SMB connectors to make the setup more versatile, and to avoid the possibility of having to remove another oscillator in the future:-) Another advantage of these pads is that if the board does get damaged removing the oscillator they can still be used as an alternative. The connectors take the 10MHz from the oscillator into the board and the EFC control voltage out from the board to the oscillator, now there's a surprise:-), and oscillator power can be completely external if required. From this it would seem that the reference supply from the oscillator itself is not used in practice, certainly not in the offboard case anyway. As others have suggested it seems likely your problem may not be the oscillator itself, but it still might be worth removing anyway to make testing and fault finding more straightforward. The maximum positive excursion of
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Doug A classical tv anyplace? 4th harmonic of the flyback was a common issue. My best guess and highly doubtful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586B Info
Hi Perrier, Thanks, I would like the documents. I have a HP 3586B and its sensitivity is right on for the 20 Hz and 400 Hz bands but is about 30 dB low for the 3100 Hz band. I have manuals but have not found the fault. Do you have suggestions? Regards, Bill br...@otelco.net -Original Message- From: Perry Sandeen via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 2:56 PM To: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3586B Info List, I've assembled three PDF documents for the HP 3586B. An electrolytic capacitor replacement list, a 15 KHz IF pick-off doc and the Beethoven audio test. You get three for the price of one: FREE. If interested, please send me a new email off line. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lucent GPDSO TTI ps graph and efc is this sick?
Hello to the group. Running the Lucent GPSDO and its been on for 5 days now. This is a capture from the z3811 program. I did not think I could get this graph out to time nuts. The actual files are quite large. However a .png makes it pretty compact. My question Is this normal? I did not expect this much jitter. Thanks in advance. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Maybe it's leakage from another time-nut's experiment in the neighborhood, or some commercial equipment. There's probably lots of stuff going on in that area. It's not necessarily a broadcast carrier, but just a frequency that happens to be generated somewhere and getting out big enough - maybe an EMC problem. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Paul wrote: Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. According to the plot, the oscillator is still aging (re-tracing) quite fast. Since it hasn't been powered up for decades, this is not a huge surprise. So be patient and wait for the crystal to settle down. (If it still looks like this in three months, then start considering whether there is a problem.) One of my best oscillators looked liked that for a month after I powered it up, then slowly improved. It wasn't as good as an average 10811 for a full six months. Another six months later it was exceptional, and it has stayed that way for nearly ten years. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
7.6 Hz is very close to the Schumann resonance fundamental. Don Doug Ronald I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] strange carrier
Looks like a clock to divide by 1000 and generate 59.99 Hz A computer video card or monitor? Some piece of Video gear? A UPS? A solar system power inverter? A generator control panel? -- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida jleik...@leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article
George, you can replace the input transformer with the mini-circuits model T2-613-1-KK81 or T662-KK81 for under 2 Dollars. The inductors L1 and L3 are standards value you can find smd or standard on ebay. About L4 you can put in place a standard 4.7uH value increasing the series capacitor for the 5MHz notching.The 3.18uH is critical because it has the double function of low pass filter and impedance adapter, so I suggest to made it as described or using a smaller core. Luciano On Thu 13/11/14 3:30 PM , xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: Luciano, This looks very nice. However, the inductors are custom made. It would be nice to have a off the shelf parts solution so it can be made easily. Any ideas ? -George, N2FGX On 11/13/2014 08:39 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Hi all, I can suggest a different solution I have tested to have some important improvement. First, the lower phase shift sensitivity with the use of a low pass filter in conjunction with two notch filters instead the high Q band pass filter, second the unity gain to avoid a 13/20 dB amplifier to restore the original power level. You can find in the link all the test we have done. http://www.timeok.it/files/high_performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf [1] I hope this can hep. Luciano www.timeok.it [2] On Thu 13/11/14 10:15 AM , Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote: We are using Wenzel with two filters see attached if it will pass. 20 Mhz is down more than 60 db and 5 MHz 55. Distribution Amp takes care of the rest. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/12/2014 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgmin...@mediacombb.net writes: Just a few days ago, I ordered parts to build a couple of the Wenzel 2-diode doublers, described in the same article as your full-wave diode doubler, just in time to discover them on Ebay (via slow boat from China), item# 171511157159. I inspected the components and layout in the picture in the listing, and it certainly looks like the Wenzel FWB doubler. At $9.99 USD, the price is cheap enough, especially since you get SMA connectors on both ends. Might have to do a bit of solder work on the SMA connectors if you want to put it into a little box. The listing on the doubler on Ebay says that the low end is 10MHz, but I'll bet that it will get down to 5MHz quite easily If there's any trouble handling a 5MHz input, you could easily use a lower frequency ferrite for the balun and make it work. As you suggest, a BPF on the output and maybe a bit of amplification to get the level up to a usable level should get you a fairly clean 10 MHz. Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [3] [1] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [4] [2] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma [5] ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma [6] ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ [7] ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [8] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [9] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it/files/high _performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it [3] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[4] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[5] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://webmail.timeok.it/parse. php%3Fredirect%3Dhttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma[6] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://webmail.timeok.it/parse. php%3Fredirect%3Dhttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma[7] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://atmail.org/ [8] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[9] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To
