[time-nuts] TU60-D120-131 Specs....?

[Mark Sims]

>From the Zodiac binary message,  mine reports 12 channels,  software ver 93.07 
>from 01/16/04,   hardware options 5843 (hex).
--
> I think the firmware version is in one of the NMEA commands.  
>   
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Bob Camp]

Hi


> On Jun 15, 2016, at 7:44 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:43:38 -0400
> Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>>> Same as above.
>>> If you lock the VCXO to an OCXO, this will be much better.
>> 
>> Each time you steer the OCXO to lock things up, you will degrade both it’s 
>> ADEV and it’s 
>> phase noise. If the GPS drops out when you do this …. the GPSDO never locks 
>> up.
> 
> Yes, sure. The ADEV of an OCXO will turn upwards again at taus somehwere
> around 10 to 1000 seconds. The loop bandwidth of the PLL that locks the OCXO
> to GPS should be in the same range in order not to degrade the short term
> stability of the OCXO. Also the PLL should have a rather damped behaviour
> in order to average out the "phase jumps" resulting from the jitter of
> the GPS PPS.
> 
> If these two points are not taken care of, then yes, the ADEV, resp the
> phase stability will degrate and thus can cause the GPS receiver to lose
> track of the satellites.

If you take data on the ADEV and phase noise of the OCXO during the initial 
lock / aggressive
steering phase of the process … it’s a lot worse than a minor tip up at 100 
seconds.

Bob


> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> Malek's Law:
>Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:43:38 -0400
Bob Camp  wrote:

> > Same as above.
> > If you lock the VCXO to an OCXO, this will be much better.
> 
> Each time you steer the OCXO to lock things up, you will degrade both it’s 
> ADEV and it’s 
> phase noise. If the GPS drops out when you do this …. the GPSDO never locks 
> up.

Yes, sure. The ADEV of an OCXO will turn upwards again at taus somehwere
around 10 to 1000 seconds. The loop bandwidth of the PLL that locks the OCXO
to GPS should be in the same range in order not to degrade the short term
stability of the OCXO. Also the PLL should have a rather damped behaviour
in order to average out the "phase jumps" resulting from the jitter of
the GPS PPS.

If these two points are not taken care of, then yes, the ADEV, resp the
phase stability will degrate and thus can cause the GPS receiver to lose
track of the satellites.


Attila Kinali
-- 
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Jun 15, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 07:03:28 -0400
> Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> 
>> If you feed the chip with your local reference: 
>> 
>> 1) You need to synthesize a signal at the expected frequency (26 MHz, 48 MHz 
>> … whatever)
> 
> 26MHz is rather benign to generate. Either use TCXO that has already
> 26MHz (e.g. ASVTX-09 from Abracon are readily available) or lock some VCXO
> to an OCXO of your choise using a simple divider+XOR based PLL.
> If you feel like it you could even use a tiny FPGA (ICE40 come to mind)
> to implement the PLL and get more flexibility.
> 
>> 2) The signal needs to be low phase noise (per the chip set specs)
> 
> The specs of the oscillator used in the LEA modules is pretty much standard.
> Not a great oscillator, but not a bad one either. The above mentioned
> ASVTX-09 is in the same ballpark.
> 
>> 3) The signal needs to be constrained for ADEV (per the chip set specs)
> 
> Same as above.
> If you lock the VCXO to an OCXO, this will be much better.

Each time you steer the OCXO to lock things up, you will degrade both it’s ADEV 
and it’s 
phase noise. If the GPS drops out when you do this …. the GPSDO never locks up.

Bob

> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have an HP5060A sitting around?

[Pete Lancashire]

Somewhat available, the 'lab' is without power due to a complete house
rewiring project.

But if it just something I could do with a Fluke, I could help

You can contact me off line ...

-pete

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:48 AM, paul swed  wrote:

> Corby
> Not sure I can help. I have my frankenstein 5061 in a 5060 with home brew
> oven controller. I pulled the old controller out. Is it that you need
> measurements on the controller or with the tube also. If its with a tube I
> don't believe my measurements would be helpful.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:26 AM,  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I need a couple resistance readings at the A11 oven controller jack.
> >
> > Does anyone have one available that they could measure for me?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Corby
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have an HP5060A sitting around?

[paul swed]

Corby
Not sure I can help. I have my frankenstein 5061 in a 5060 with home brew
oven controller. I pulled the old controller out. Is it that you need
measurements on the controller or with the tube also. If its with a tube I
don't believe my measurements would be helpful.
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:26 AM,  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I need a couple resistance readings at the A11 oven controller jack.
>
> Does anyone have one available that they could measure for me?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
>
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[time-nuts] Anyone have an HP5060A sitting around?

[cdelect]

Hi,

I need a couple resistance readings at the A11 oven controller jack.

Does anyone have one available that they could measure for me?

Cheers,

Corby

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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 143, Issue 25

[Leo Bodnar]

Be also aware that there are outright fakes around.  This one did not have any 
silicon inside.
It made debugging very difficult.

http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/fake-M8030.jpg

Leo


On 15 Jun 2016, at 10:00, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

> Certainly cheap…. BUT
> 
> On the ublox site there is a table indicating that the KT is a standard 
> precision engine. On the same table, the UBX-M8030-KT-FT is required for 
> timing:
> 
> < 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/GNSS-Chips_Linecard_%28UBX-13004716%29.pdf
>  >
> < 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/UBX-M8030-KT-FT_ProductSummary_%28UBX-14001605%29.pdf
>  >
> 
> So, they may be cheap, very cheap, but are they really what a TN would want?
> 
> Hope that helps.
> Mike

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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 07:03:28 -0400
Bob Camp  wrote:


> If you feed the chip with your local reference: 
> 
> 1) You need to synthesize a signal at the expected frequency (26 MHz, 48 MHz 
> … whatever)

26MHz is rather benign to generate. Either use TCXO that has already
26MHz (e.g. ASVTX-09 from Abracon are readily available) or lock some VCXO
to an OCXO of your choise using a simple divider+XOR based PLL.
If you feel like it you could even use a tiny FPGA (ICE40 come to mind)
to implement the PLL and get more flexibility.
 
> 2) The signal needs to be low phase noise (per the chip set specs)

The specs of the oscillator used in the LEA modules is pretty much standard.
Not a great oscillator, but not a bad one either. The above mentioned
ASVTX-09 is in the same ballpark.

> 3) The signal needs to be constrained for ADEV (per the chip set specs)

Same as above.
If you lock the VCXO to an OCXO, this will be much better.


Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you feed the chip with your local reference: 

1) You need to synthesize a signal at the expected frequency (26 MHz, 48 MHz … 
whatever)

2) The signal needs to be low phase noise (per the chip set specs)

3) The signal needs to be constrained for ADEV (per the chip set specs)

All of that may or may not be as simple as measuring the phase.

Bob

> On Jun 15, 2016, at 5:11 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:44:15 +0200
> Mike Cook  wrote:
> 
>> Certainly cheap…. BUT
>> 
>> On the ublox site there is a table indicating that the KT is a standard 
>> precision engine. On the same table, the UBX-M8030-KT-FT is required for 
>> timing:
> 
> Oops! Missed that one! Sorry!
> 
> How about using an UBX-G6010 [1] then? They are also available for <5USD/pcs.
> Apparently, it is possible to enable various commands with the 6th gen
> chips [2] and there is some RAW message enabled firmware available[3]
> 
>> So, they may be cheap, very cheap, but are they really what a TN would want?
> 
> Maybe? :-)
> Given the amoount of people who use modules without even sawtooth correction
> and still get pretty good results, it might be promising. At the very least
> you could get around measuring the PPS directly and instead, just use the
> sawtooth correction message to know how far you've drifted
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> 
> [1] 
> http://innovictor.com/pdf/UBXG6010_UBXG600_UBXG0010_DataSheet_GPS%20G6-X-09004_Confidential.pdf
> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UbloxRAW#U-BLOX6
> [3] 
> http://gps.0xdc.ru/static/ublox/device/Navilock%20NL-602U/patched/NL602-patched-fw.bin
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:44:15 +0200
Mike Cook  wrote:

> Certainly cheap…. BUT
> 
> On the ublox site there is a table indicating that the KT is a standard 
> precision engine. On the same table, the UBX-M8030-KT-FT is required for 
> timing:

Oops! Missed that one! Sorry!

How about using an UBX-G6010 [1] then? They are also available for <5USD/pcs.
Apparently, it is possible to enable various commands with the 6th gen
chips [2] and there is some RAW message enabled firmware available[3]

> So, they may be cheap, very cheap, but are they really what a TN would want?

Maybe? :-)
Given the amoount of people who use modules without even sawtooth correction
and still get pretty good results, it might be promising. At the very least
you could get around measuring the PPS directly and instead, just use the
sawtooth correction message to know how far you've drifted


Attila Kinali


[1] 
http://innovictor.com/pdf/UBXG6010_UBXG600_UBXG0010_DataSheet_GPS%20G6-X-09004_Confidential.pdf
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UbloxRAW#U-BLOX6
[3] 
http://gps.0xdc.ru/static/ublox/device/Navilock%20NL-602U/patched/NL602-patched-fw.bin

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Improving on basic L1 timing

[Michael Wouters]

I should have added,  if you do all of the above, the improvement in
stability over just using a sawtooth-corrected PPS is not all that
spectacular, a factor of two or three. I'll post a plot of some data
tomorrow.

Cheers
Michael.

On Wednesday, 15 June 2016, Michael Wouters 
wrote:

> If you followed the link to www.openttp.org and are wondering where the
> software is, follow the link on the home page to GitHub and then look in
> the Develop branch. The ublox branch is for the new '8' series receivers.
>
> Cheers
> Michael
>
> On Tuesday, 14 June 2016, Michael Wouters  > wrote:
>
>> Hello Angus
>>
>> If you have 3 rubidiums of similar stability + 3 counters, you could
>> do a 3-cornered hat.
>>
>> Otherwise, GPS common view to a better clock may be an option. If you
>> are reasonably close to a national standards lab, you might be able to
>> use their time-transfer files to compare your rubidiums with their
>> time scale - not everyone makes them publically available though.
>> Otherwise, if there is an IGS station near you, you could use the
>> station RINEX files and IGS clock solutions which are freely
>> available. Many IGS stations have a H-maser as the local clock. But it
>> may be just as good to simply use the comparison with GPS time
>> inherent in the time-transfer file.
>>
>> The advantage of generating a time-transfer file is the possibility of
>> then improving upon the various corrections broadcast by GPS,
>> effectively repeating what the GPS receiver does to generate its
>> realization of GPS time but with better data.
>>
>> With post-processing, the short to medium term (less than 1 day)
>> performance  can be improved a bit as you are suggesting when you
>> referred to "atmospheric issues". Improved ionospheric models are
>> available  or if there is an IGS station nearby, for example, the
>> measured ionosphere could be used. Other improvements can be had with
>> good antenna coordinates and using final orbits in the processing.
>>
>> What can you use for your time-transfer receiver ? Some low-cost
>> single-frequency receivers are suitable eg the Trimble Resolution T.
>> The essential requirement is the availability of  raw code
>> measurements - with these you can generate CGGTTS time-transfer files
>> and/or RINEX observation files.
>>
>> At least part of the software infrastructure to do this exists: the
>> OpenTTP project (www.openttp.org) has software for CGGTTS and RINEX
>> file generation for a few older,single frequency receivers, with
>> support for some other,current receivers under active development.
>> There is other software around, but it is orientated towards dual
>> frequency receivers and carrier phase processing.
>>
>> Although it would be relatively straightforward to hack in use of
>> improved ionosphere, using final orbits is a bit harder since these
>> are not parameterized the same way as the broadcast orbits. Maybe
>> someone on time-nuts has software to do the conversion (and this would
>> have to be hacked into the OpenTTP software, rather than the final
>> time comparison).
>>
>> The sort of performance you get on a zero baseline is a TDEV of a few
>> ns - you can extrapolate frequency stability from that.
>> On a 1000 km baseline, you can compare two Cs to better than 1 part in
>> 10^13 @ 1 day.
>>
>> All of the above is software-oriented, whereas you seem to be looking
>> for a hardware solution, but that's what I know best.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Michael
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Angus  wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I'm planning to test some rubidiums again, but since Santa never did
>> > get me that hydrogen maser I asked for, I'm still stuck with ordinary
>> > gps timing receivers as a separate medium to long term reference. The
>> > atmospheric issues are probably the main ones I would like to get rid
>> > of, although the more errors removed the better.
>> >
>> > It does not have to be done in real time, but even an single test run
>> > would last weeks, so there could be a lot of data to tie together.
>> >
>> > It would really need to be something that actually exists rather than
>> > just an idea of how it might be done, since I really just don't have
>> > time for any more major projects anytime soon. I've found from
>> > experience that too much time spent making the test gear etc means
>> > that I don't get the time to actually use it!
>> >
>> > I'm also looking for something that's not too expensive - like up to
>> > hundreds rather than thousands of pounds.
>> > A good cesium or 2+ frequency gps with relevant options might be fine,
>> > but also rather out of my price range.
>> >
>> > BTW, I do plan on uploading the end results, in case anyone is
>> > interested.
>> >
>> >
>> > If anyone knows of some way to do this, (or even has something
>> > appropriate they want to sell) I'd appreciate hearing 

Re: [time-nuts] TU60-D120-131 Specs....?

[Bryan _]

Yes, that's the seller. I think the firmware version is in one of the NMEA 
commands. 

-=Bryan=-

> From: hol...@hotmail.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 04:37:13 +
> Subject: [time-nuts] TU60-D120-131 Specs?
> 
> Mine came from seller "electronics plus" in Michigan (?) ...  not sure of the 
> firmware,  all my machines are currently tied up doing other stuff at the 
> moment.
> -
> Did you order yours from the same seller on Ebay. 
>   
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Mike Cook]

Certainly cheap…. BUT

On the ublox site there is a table indicating that the KT is a standard 
precision engine. On the same table, the UBX-M8030-KT-FT is required for timing:

< 
https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/GNSS-Chips_Linecard_%28UBX-13004716%29.pdf
 >
< 
https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/UBX-M8030-KT-FT_ProductSummary_%28UBX-14001605%29.pdf
 >

So, they may be cheap, very cheap, but are they really what a TN would want?

Hope that helps.
Mike



> Le 15 juin 2016 à 01:38, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
> 
> Moin,
> 
> Some of you might know that the u-blox chips are available in small
> quantities and for quite cheap too. Just go to aliexpress or taobao
> and type in "UBX-G7020" or "UBX-M8030" and you will get plenty of
> results. My guess is, that these chips are leftovers from cellphone
> production that get sold off close at wholesale price (I've seen
> that with other chips as well). So it is likely that these are 
> actually genuine chips.
> 
> Now, the documentation for those chips is not that readily available.
> But fret not! Some of it can be found if you look hard enough. At least
> for the G7020. I think, this information should be enough for anyone
> who wants to build his own GPSDO with Trimble like oscillator control
> (ie that the reference oscillator of the GPS module is steered directly).
> 
> The UBX-M8030-KT, which would be a timing chip and thus for sure
> support the RAW data commandos, is unfortunately quite google proof.
> At least I couldn't find any documentation for those but the official
> public one provided by u-blox. I would guess, that the pin out is very
> similar if not the same, but without guarante.
> 
> (I know that least the UBX-M8030-KT datasheet UBX-13001634 is floating
> around, but So far i was not able to get hold of it, due to insufficient
> chinese language skills)
> 
> As for the UBX-G7020, you can find the following documents:
> 
> 
> UBX-G7020-KT/KA u-blox 7 GPS/GNSS chips Data Sheet GPS.G7-HW-12001
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ArdentHeavyIndustries/straightedge-gps-firmware/master/Datasheets/UBX-G7020-Kx_DataSheet_(GPS%20G7-HW-12001)_Confidential.pdf.pdf
> 
> u-blox 7 GPS/GNSS chips Hardware Integration Manual GPS.G7-HW-10003
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/GPS/MOD-GPS/resources/UBX-G7020_HardwareIntegrationManual_-GPS.G7-HW-10003-_Confidential.pdf
> 
> 
> So, if anyone would want to give those a try, let us know.
> I'm sure many here would be interested.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> Malek's Law:
>Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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[time-nuts] TU60-D120-131 Specs....?

[Mark Sims]

Mine came from seller "electronics plus" in Michigan (?) ...  not sure of the 
firmware,  all my machines are currently tied up doing other stuff at the 
moment.
-
Did you order yours from the same seller on Ebay.   
  
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