Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Oz-in-DFW]

I'll second this, and suggest you consider:

 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
 3. You can only place a limited list of parts for a run.  If you have
one more part than the machine will accomodate, its a second (or
third, or fourth pass.)
 4. They are all high maintenance in addition to requiring tuning. A lot
of the maintenance is based on calendar, not operation time.  Even
and idle machine requires time if you actually want to use it
eventually.
 5. Most are closed software loops. You work around their poor (or un)
documented formats and bugs.
 6. There are really cheap small batch assembly houses coming online
that will do under 10 units. See Macrofab, PC:NG, Small Batch
Assembly are fairly quick turns.

If all you are doing is protos, hand placement, mylar solder stencils
(see Oshstencils and others) and a hacked toaster oven are a good
solution. The $500 Chinese reflow ovens seem to require more (re)work
that a $50 toaster oven.  If you use stencils to place the solder, part
placement is as fast (or faster) than through hole parts. I have to use
a microscope.  I'm shaky enough that  may need to built some Waldoes
soon.  ;-)

I just did six moderately complex boards (no fine pitch parts) and that
was 2-3 too many for me.

Solder stencils make **all** the difference.

Oz, in DFW

On 6/23/2016 6:21 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not 
> use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an 
> “advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen 
> printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. 
> You can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt 
> toaster oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / 
> how tight pitch you want to deal with.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bob et al,
>>
>> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
>> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
>> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
>> business.
>>
>> Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!
>>
>> Bob

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[Chris Albertson]

>
> Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?


A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens.  Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch.It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller software reads a thermocouple and controls an on/off relay.
Lots of instructions around if you google for reflow toaster oven.

As for pick and place, the old method still works.  Work by hand under
a low power stereo microscope.  You buy a syringe of solder past and
place little dabs on each pad then place the part with twitters.
Many years ago I worked at a place that had a few dozen women who did
this all day long.   You can get a very good used microscope (5x to
20x zoom works well) for under $250 and a workable one for under $100.
But many people today are using cameras and a big computer monitor in
place of the microscope.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the 
board, it has a very 
limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your 
soldering quality can
suffer quite a bit.

Bob


> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
> the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
> using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
> custom designs.
> 
> The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
> willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
> at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
> don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
> printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
> other email lists that deal with robots
> 
> For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
> build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
>> Thanks Bob et al,
>> 
>> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
>> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
>> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
>> business.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Graham / KE9H]

We use
"Advanced Assembly" in Colorado for prototype assembly.
http://aa-pcbassembly.com/

For just one or two boards, it is faster to hand solder the parts, as long
as no BGA's or similar.

If complex soldering like BGAs, or more than three boards, we use a proto
assembly house.

--- Graham

==

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
> the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
> using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
> custom designs.
>
> The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
> willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
> at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
> don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
> printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
> other email lists that deal with robots
>
> For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
> build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> > Thanks Bob et al,
> >
> > This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long
> it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to
> become a couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny
> electronics business.
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[bownes]

Aside from using the toaster oven reflow controller from SparkFun? 

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 21:28, Jay Grizzard  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
> 
> Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
> range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
> (according to reviews) had cycle timers were *horribly* off, to the point
> they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature 
> for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
> around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
> of "usable".
> 
> Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
> 
> -j
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Both the T962 and the T962A’s work ok. You need to re-tape them and re-flash 
the 
firmware. They *are* IR reflow machines and you have to design with that in 
mind. The IR
process has never been a good idea for 85C rated black cased plastic 
capacitors. Is it
better or worse than a converted toaster? That depends on how much work you did 
on 
the toaster…..

If you simply want a more plug and play with less thinking involved, machine  
there are others up
in the $1500 to $2000 range. 

I’ve been doing SMT assembly for 40 years. I have never ever seen anybody with 
a process 
that “just worked”. They all involve some amount of fine tuning and design 
optimization.

Bob


> On Jun 23, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Jay Grizzard  
> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
> 
> Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
> range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
> (according to reviews) had cycle timers were *horribly* off, to the point
> they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature 
> for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
> around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
> of "usable".
> 
> Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
> 
> -j
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[Jay Grizzard]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.

Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
(according to reviews) had cycle timers were *horribly* off, to the point
they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature 
for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
of "usable".

Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?

-j
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Chris Albertson]

This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today.   You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads.  So how to make small batches of
custom designs.

The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
at a time and work on small boards.   The RapRap type 3d printers
don't cost much to build.  A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
printer with a different nozzle.You can find people doing this on
other email lists that deal with robots

For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> Thanks Bob et al,
>
> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
> business.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Henry Hallam]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts
 wrote:
> It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit 
> like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit 
> cost after that is quite low, which favors volume.
>
> Any way you slice it, I’d expect that 10 boards is too small a number for it 
> to be economical. I’ve done 10-20 *panels* of boards at a time with SBA, and 
> that’s worked out ok, but that’s amortizing the cost over a couple hundred 
> units at a time.

Tempo Automation in San Francisco is trying to fill this gap in the
market for prototype quantities of boards.  I used them a couple of
years ago and they did a good job for a good price.  Looking at their
website now (http://www.tempoautomation.com/) it appears they've
expanded into fabbing the board for you as well as assembling it.

Henry
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Right now the dividing line for a fully automatic machine is at about $3K. For 
below that you can get a machine without vision. For a bit above that you can 
get a machine with dual camera (one up / one down) vision capability. You 
quickly spiral up in cost as you add auto change pick heads, pneumatic 
feeders, and conveyor systems.  They all pretty much assume you have 
a Windows PC and that it’s free to use with the machine. 

One subtle hassle on assembly is parts on reels and the leader material. I 
have yet to find any pick and place feeders that are happy with the leader 
the distributors glue to cut tape. The only real alternative is to either 
design 
against an inventory that somebody already has or to plan on buying full 
reels of everything. 

Bob

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> There are fairly decent small pick-and-place machines you can get for <$3000. 
>  A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.  At these costs, it does not take 
> many outside assembly house runs to pay for the machinery... maybe even one.  
> If your board has components on only one side,  the do-it-yourself route is a 
> bit easier.
> I know a couple of people that made their own pick-and-place machines.  One 
> is rather neat (optical imaging, etc) and out-performs some $10,000+ 
> machines, except for maybe speed.  He built it over a couple of weeks from 
> junk parts. 
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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping

[Mark Sims]

There are fairly decent small pick-and-place machines you can get for <$3000.  
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.  At these costs, it does not take 
many outside assembly house runs to pay for the machinery... maybe even one.  
If your board has components on only one side,  the do-it-yourself route is a 
bit easier.
I know a couple of people that made their own pick-and-place machines.  One is 
rather neat (optical imaging, etc) and out-performs some $10,000+ machines, 
except for maybe speed.  He built it over a couple of weeks from junk parts.
   
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not 
use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an 
“advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen 
printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. You 
can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt toaster 
oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / how tight 
pitch you want to deal with.

Bob

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Bob et al,
> 
> This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll 
> take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a 
> couple hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics 
> business.
> 
> Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!
> 
> Bob
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping 
> board
> To: "Bob Stewart" , "Discussion of precise time and 
> frequency measurement" 
> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
> 
> Hi
> 
> Around here, assuming:
> 
> 1) You supply all the parts on full reels with
> leaders 
> 2) There is no hand assembly
> work
> 3) You already have framed stencils
> that are the correct size for their gear
> 4)
> You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on
> both sides
> 5) The boards are designed to
> mount on their gear
> 6) Your parts and design
> rules fit their gear and rules. 
> 7) No
> electrical test, visual inspect only. 
> 8)
> Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
> replace it on your time.
> 
> You can get various places to look at a batch
> for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
> their
> stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 
> 
> If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
> a bit of money. Shipping plus packing 
> always seems to be a bit expensive. 
> 
> By far the best approach is to
> get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
> Then
> do it in whatever arrays / panel size
> they are set up for and all the other little details. 
> 
> This all starts to make a lot
> more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
> hundred boards. 
> Even more so if it is a few
> hundred boards a month, every month for a few years. 
> 
> 
> 
> Some math:
> 
> 120
> parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
> that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine, 
> loading and unloading the machine, pulling
> boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
> 
> validating everything ….. that’s an
> afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
> of down time
> on the machine. 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
> buy your own pick and place machine …. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
> 
> wrote:
>> 
>> One more
> related question before this topic dies, if you don't
> mind.  What about the other side of building: stuffing the
> boards.  My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
> some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a service
> out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
> small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
>> 
>> Bob - AE6RV
>> 
>> 
> ---
>> GFS GPSDO list:
>> 
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>> 
>> 
> 
>> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay 
> wrote:
>> 
>> Subject:
> Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and
> frequency measurement" ,
> "Nick Sayer" 
>> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
>> 
>> Life is so much
> easier
>> now,  dirtypcb is a great
> service,  I have a pile of
>> boards here
> from them which are far greater
>> quality
> than anything I could
>> hope to
>> produce at home or even in the lab I used
> to have. 
>> They're also
>> better quality than any of
>> the local board houses I used in the
> past.
>> 
>> Having said
> that,  I did hand
>> manufacture fifty
> single sided boards from
>> photo laminate
> to completed product in one
>> weekend
> using a Dremel drill
>> press for
>> somewhere around four thousand holes and
> hand soldering
>> every
>> component so it was definitely
>> possible
>> On 23 Jun
> 2016 00:01, "Nick
>> Sayer via
> time-nuts" 
>> wrote:
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[jimlux]

On 6/23/16 2:56 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs
have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA
connectors.  Is there a service out there that will populate boards
with SMT components for small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is
10 boards.



I've used Screaming Circuits in Oregon as an assembly house. They've
done ok for us, but I have no idea if they are inexpensive in your context.

The biggest boards I've done with them have been 4x6", but they have SMA
and MMCX connectors, maybe 100 components, mostly SMT, but a few DIP
carriers.




I went and looked up some typical quotes from Screaming Circuits.. we're 
typically doing a 4-20 boards, and to place <100 parts runs us about 
$20-50 per board (if I had to guess about their "setup vs each" pricing 
based on the different volumes I had quoted for the same board, I'd say 
setup is in the $250-300 range, and assy is in the $15-20/board range.


Not everything on these boards is machine placeable, and there's some 
hand assembly required (like soldering pins into a carrier, and then 
soldering the carrier onto the board).  There's also some shielding cans 
that may or may not be machine placed and soldered.


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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Stewart]

Thanks Bob et al,

This is about what I expected, but I had to ask.  I wonder how long it'll take 
for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple 
hundred?  That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.

Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die.  Thanks for the responses!

Bob

---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info


On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping 
board
 To: "Bob Stewart" , "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement" 
 Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
 
 Hi
 
 Around here, assuming:
 
 1) You supply all the parts on full reels with
 leaders 
 2) There is no hand assembly
 work
 3) You already have framed stencils
 that are the correct size for their gear
 4)
 You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on
 both sides
 5) The boards are designed to
 mount on their gear
 6) Your parts and design
 rules fit their gear and rules. 
 7) No
 electrical test, visual inspect only. 
 8)
 Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
 replace it on your time.
 
 You can get various places to look at a batch
 for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
 their
 stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 
 
 If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
 a bit of money. Shipping plus packing 
 always seems to be a bit expensive. 
 
 By far the best approach is to
 get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
 Then
 do it in whatever arrays / panel size
 they are set up for and all the other little details. 
 
 This all starts to make a lot
 more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
 hundred boards. 
 Even more so if it is a few
 hundred boards a month, every month for a few years. 
 
 
 
 Some math:
 
 120
 parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
 that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine, 
 loading and unloading the machine, pulling
 boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
 
 validating everything ….. that’s an
 afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
 of down time
 on the machine. 
 
 
 
 Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
 buy your own pick and place machine …. 
 
 Bob
 
  
 > On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
 
 wrote:
 > 
 > One more
 related question before this topic dies, if you don't
 mind.  What about the other side of building: stuffing the
 boards.  My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
 some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a service
 out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
 small orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
 > 
 > Bob - AE6RV
 > 
 >
 
---
 > GFS GPSDO list:
 >
 groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
 > 
 >
 
 > On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Subject:
 Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
 > To: "Discussion of precise time and
 frequency measurement" ,
 "Nick Sayer" 
 > Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
 > 
 > Life is so much
 easier
 > now,  dirtypcb is a great
 service,  I have a pile of
 > boards here
 from them which are far greater
 > quality
 than anything I could
 > hope to
 > produce at home or even in the lab I used
 to have. 
 > They're also
 > better quality than any of
 > the local board houses I used in the
 past.
 > 
 > Having said
 that,  I did hand
 > manufacture fifty
 single sided boards from
 > photo laminate
 to completed product in one
 > weekend
 using a Dremel drill
 > press for
 > somewhere around four thousand holes and
 hand soldering
 > every
 > component so it was definitely
 > possible
 > On 23 Jun
 2016 00:01, "Nick
 > Sayer via
 time-nuts" 
 > wrote:
 >
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Around here, assuming:

1) You supply all the parts on full reels with leaders 
2) There is no hand assembly work
3) You already have framed stencils that are the correct size for their gear
4) You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials  on both sides
5) The boards are designed to mount on their gear
6) Your parts and design rules fit their gear and rules. 
7) No electrical test, visual inspect only. 
8) Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you replace it on your 
time.

You can get various places to look at a batch for $500 to $1000. If your 
stencils !=
their stencils figure $100 to $200 each. 

If you want to ship things a ways, you can save a bit of money. Shipping plus 
packing 
always seems to be a bit expensive. 

By far the best approach is to get all of their rules before you start a board 
layout. Then
do it in whatever arrays / panel size they are set up for and all the other 
little details. 

This all starts to make a lot more sense to the local outfits when you are 
talking a few hundred boards. 
Even more so if it is a few hundred boards a month, every month for a few 
years. 



Some math:

120 parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do that in < 6 
minutes. Setting up the machine, 
loading and unloading the machine, pulling boards on and off the machine, 
programming the whole thing, 
validating everything ….. that’s an afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and 
maybe an hour of down time
on the machine. 



Of course for a few thousand dollars you can buy your own pick and place 
machine …. 

Bob

 
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
> about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
> 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
> service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
> orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> , "Nick Sayer" 
> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
> 
> Life is so much easier
> now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
> boards here from them which are far greater
> quality than anything I could
> hope to
> produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
> They're also
> better quality than any of
> the local board houses I used in the past.
> 
> Having said that,  I did hand
> manufacture fifty single sided boards from
> photo laminate to completed product in one
> weekend using a Dremel drill
> press for
> somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
> every
> component so it was definitely
> possible
> On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
> Sayer via time-nuts" 
> wrote:
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[jimlux]

On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.



I've used Screaming Circuits in Oregon as an assembly house. They've 
done ok for us, but I have no idea if they are inexpensive in your context.


The biggest boards I've done with them have been 4x6", but they have SMA 
and MMCX connectors, maybe 100 components, mostly SMT, but a few DIP 
carriers.



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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

I’ve done quite a bit of this. My assembler of choice is Small Batch Assembly.

It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit 
like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit cost 
after that is quite low, which favors volume.

Any way you slice it, I’d expect that 10 boards is too small a number for it to 
be economical. I’ve done 10-20 *panels* of boards at a time with SBA, and 
that’s worked out ok, but that’s amortizing the cost over a couple hundred 
units at a time.

SBA has a free quote widget on their site that will give you a ballpark number 
given your BOM size, board and panel count. I particularly like that there’s no 
hook from that widget to a greasy salesman trying to glad-hand you. :)

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
> about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
> 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
> service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
> orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
> 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
> 
> On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> , "Nick Sayer" 
> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
> 
> Life is so much easier
> now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
> boards here from them which are far greater
> quality than anything I could
> hope to
> produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
> They're also
> better quality than any of
> the local board houses I used in the past.
> 
> Having said that,  I did hand
> manufacture fifty single sided boards from
> photo laminate to completed product in one
> weekend using a Dremel drill
> press for
> somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
> every
> component so it was definitely
> possible
> On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
> Sayer via time-nuts" 
> wrote:
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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[time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Bob Stewart]

One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.  What 
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards.  My GPSDOs have about 
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.  Is there a 
service out there that will populate boards with SMT components for small 
orders at a reasonable price?  Small is 10 boards.

Bob - AE6RV

---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info


On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
 To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
, "Nick Sayer" 
 Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
 
 Life is so much easier
 now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
 boards here from them which are far greater
 quality than anything I could
 hope to
 produce at home or even in the lab I used to have. 
 They're also
 better quality than any of
 the local board houses I used in the past.
 
 Having said that,  I did hand
 manufacture fifty single sided boards from
 photo laminate to completed product in one
 weekend using a Dremel drill
 press for
 somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering
 every
 component so it was definitely
 possible
 On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick
 Sayer via time-nuts" 
 wrote:
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Re: [time-nuts] A little telegraph history, slightly off topic

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Mitch:

Thanks for the post.  I'd like to see you video on adjusting a bug.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

A little history about telegraphy and identifying operators and
transmitters.



As the former owner of Vibroplex (1994-2009) I spoke with thousands of hams
and hundreds of former railroad and WU telegraphers at hamfests over the
years, many at the Dayton, OH hamfest.


Also, one of my friends was Harold Kaplan, W4KVO (sk), who was a Signal
Core intercept operator in WWII. Harold spent three years in Newfoundland
copying high speed German telegraphy. The monitoring station had rhombic
antennas aimed at the North Atlantic, Europe, Africa, and the South
Atlantic, with banks of Hammarlund receivers, state of the art at the time.
The Germans had mylar tape recorders (Ampex after the war), they recorded
code at 35-40 wpm, 5 letter code groups, and retransmitted the code at
70-100 wpm. The Signal Core recorded the German transmissions on wire
recorders, slowed the code down to 30-40 wpm to copy and put the copied 5
letter code groups on a landline teletype circuit to a decryption facility.
Some of the operators could copy the code directly off the wire recorder at
50-60 wpm straight to the teletype without having to transcribe!



Of course, the intercept operators were copying 5 letter code groups for
many hours a day, for months on end. They became very proficient.



Harold related to me how they could identify individual German operators
sending the code, and occasionally would get personal information on the
operators and their locations when the operators would chat with each
other. They assigned all of the German operators nicknames, based on the
particular operator’s “fist” and the characteristics of their transmitter.
So even with a new German operator, the characteristics of the transmitter
‘sound’ could give away the transmitter location.



As a new general class ham in 1963, I joined Army Mars – that was how I met
Harold. The first thing the local Mars director did to a new member was
assign them as net control for a cw net. And, what a way to get your code
speed up. Some of the net members would ‘check in’ to the net at 20-25 wpm,
some at 50-60 wpm, almost all using Bugs. As the protocol of the net was
fixed, you could muddle through as net control if you could copy at ~20
wpm. However, it only took a couple of months and you were up to at least
30-35 wpm for self preservation. Also, by the time a net member sent their
first character or two of code, you knew who the member was. Identification
was a combination of the operator’s fist, and the characteristics of their
transmitter. There would be a slight signal chirp, key click, power supply
hum, etc. etc. on the signal. All of the transmitters were tube, of course,
and they all sounded a little different.



The old time hams and telegraphers who came by the Vibroplex booth at
hamfests always stopped to chat and send a few characters on one of the
display bugs. And every single one of them would say, “this bug needs
adjusting”, and proceed to make adjustments. That is one of the reasons
each operator sounded different on the air, their bug was adjusted just the
way they liked it. I spend a lot of time readjusting bugs! A favorite
diversion of mine was to have a left handed display bug.  People would come
up to the display, not notice that the bug was left handed, and try to send
with it. They would complain, something is wrong with this bug. I would
reach across the table, the bug being ‘right hand’ for me and send a few
characters, and say no, this bug is just fine.



Not many people left who know how to properly adjust a bug, it is a simple
1, 2, 3. I need to make a YouTube video on how to do it. J



Mitch W4OA
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Re: [time-nuts] A little telegraph history, slightly off topic

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

Mitch, nice story!  I can certainly vouch for its ring of truth, as I 
experience the same thing on CW.  I can often identify a station by the style, 
speed, sound, or other characteristics.  I can tell a bug from a straight key 
from a keyer a lot of the time.  And we won't talk about frequency drift.

One of the interesting things is to be able to understand someone who can't 
send very well.  Extra dits, broken characters, and so on, all gets easy once 
you get the feel of the fist.  I was taught that eight dits is the code for 
error but hardly anyone can get just 8 dits.
There are QRQ nets where guys use computers to send at blazing speeds.  I love 
copying them, although it's hard work and I tire quickly.  At times I can copy 
up to maybe 60 wpm for very brief periods.
I made a paddle from an old mouse.  It's great because it doesn't require the 
usual lead weights in the base because your hand holds it securely.  It's a 
quick learn, and even is easy reversing it.  I still use my traditional paddle 
though.
Sometimes it seems that fast operators are just showing off rather than trying 
to communicate quickly but I am just fantasizing here.  When you get past about 
25-30 wpm you are in a rarefied group that limits considerably whom you can 
QSO.  OTOH, CW contacts are usually so standard in format that you only need to 
get the guy's callsign and the rest is boiler plate, so you can do them at high 
speed.
Bob K6DDX
 

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:02 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
 wrote:
 

 More off topic:

I saw on the history channel a story about a
British radio installation in France (IIRC)
that was taken over by the Germans, who
proceeded to masquerade as British operators,
hoping to gather intelligence.  The British
became suspicious and someone got the bright
to append "HH" to the end of a transmission.
The German operator at the other end instinctively
replied in kind "HH" out of habit, and blew
his cover.  "HH" being Heil .

Regarding recording CW:  KH6IJ had a job
copying news and he said that he would
record the CW and then actually play it
back at a HIGHER speed than it was sent
at.  He was that good at CW.

Rick

On 6/22/2016 9:09 PM, F Mitchell wrote:
> A little history about telegraphy and identifying operators and
> transmitters.
>
>
>
> As the former owner of Vibroplex (1994-2009) I spoke with thousands of hams
> and hundreds of former railroad and WU telegraphers at hamfests over the
> years, many at the Dayton, OH hamfest.
>
>
> Also, one of my friends was Harold Kaplan, W4KVO (sk), who was a Signal
> Core intercept operator in WWII. Harold spent three years in Newfoundland
> copying high speed German telegraphy. The monitoring station had rhombic
> antennas aimed at the North Atlantic, Europe, Africa, and the South
> Atlantic, with banks of Hammarlund receivers, state of the art at the time.
> The Germans had mylar tape recorders (Ampex after the war), they recorded
> code at 35-40 wpm, 5 letter code groups, and retransmitted the code at
> 70-100 wpm. The Signal Core recorded the German transmissions on wire
> recorders, slowed the code down to 30-40 wpm to copy and put the copied 5
> letter code groups on a landline teletype circuit to a decryption facility.
> Some of the operators could copy the code directly off the wire recorder at
> 50-60 wpm straight to the teletype without having to transcribe!
>
>
>
> Of course, the intercept operators were copying 5 letter code groups for
> many hours a day, for months on end. They became very proficient.
>
>
>
> Harold related to me how they could identify individual German operators
> sending the code, and occasionally would get personal information on the
> operators and their locations when the operators would chat with each
> other. They assigned all of the German operators nicknames, based on the
> particular operator’s “fist” and the characteristics of their transmitter.
> So even with a new German operator, the characteristics of the transmitter
> ‘sound’ could give away the transmitter location.
>
>
>
> As a new general class ham in 1963, I joined Army Mars – that was how I met
> Harold. The first thing the local Mars director did to a new member was
> assign them as net control for a cw net. And, what a way to get your code
> speed up. Some of the net members would ‘check in’ to the net at 20-25 wpm,
> some at 50-60 wpm, almost all using Bugs. As the protocol of the net was
> fixed, you could muddle through as net control if you could copy at ~20
> wpm. However, it only took a couple of months and you were up to at least
> 30-35 wpm for self preservation. Also, by the time a net member sent their
> first character or two of code, you knew who the member was. Identification
> was a combination of the operator’s fist, and the characteristics of their
> transmitter. There would be a slight signal chirp, key click, power supply
> hum, etc. etc. on the signal. All of the transmitters were tube, of 

[time-nuts] one quick WWII CW story

[skipp Isaham via time-nuts]

Just one quick WWII CW story while the subject is active. 

I once read a WWII timeline based story of an American ham, then active in the 
military,  testing his radio station transmitter with a string of V's and then 
quickly signing 
off using his amateur call sign. I believe the story was based that he was in a 
military aircraft in the European Theatre. 

After testing the radio transmitter and antenna system to his satisfaction, 
signing 
his amateur radio call sign and  returning to receive mode... he was quite 
surprised 
to receive a quick signal report, the sender of the received signal report 
quickly signed 
off with his pre-war German call sign. 

I let the source of that story get away many decades past... and I never heard 
if 
the two hams ever met during or post WWII. 

End of story... resume all skate. 

s. 

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Re: [time-nuts] A little telegraph history, slightly off topic

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

More off topic:

I saw on the history channel a story about a
British radio installation in France (IIRC)
that was taken over by the Germans, who
proceeded to masquerade as British operators,
hoping to gather intelligence.  The British
became suspicious and someone got the bright
to append "HH" to the end of a transmission.
The German operator at the other end instinctively
replied in kind "HH" out of habit, and blew
his cover.  "HH" being Heil .

Regarding recording CW:  KH6IJ had a job
copying news and he said that he would
record the CW and then actually play it
back at a HIGHER speed than it was sent
at.  He was that good at CW.

Rick

On 6/22/2016 9:09 PM, F Mitchell wrote:

A little history about telegraphy and identifying operators and
transmitters.



As the former owner of Vibroplex (1994-2009) I spoke with thousands of hams
and hundreds of former railroad and WU telegraphers at hamfests over the
years, many at the Dayton, OH hamfest.


Also, one of my friends was Harold Kaplan, W4KVO (sk), who was a Signal
Core intercept operator in WWII. Harold spent three years in Newfoundland
copying high speed German telegraphy. The monitoring station had rhombic
antennas aimed at the North Atlantic, Europe, Africa, and the South
Atlantic, with banks of Hammarlund receivers, state of the art at the time.
The Germans had mylar tape recorders (Ampex after the war), they recorded
code at 35-40 wpm, 5 letter code groups, and retransmitted the code at
70-100 wpm. The Signal Core recorded the German transmissions on wire
recorders, slowed the code down to 30-40 wpm to copy and put the copied 5
letter code groups on a landline teletype circuit to a decryption facility.
Some of the operators could copy the code directly off the wire recorder at
50-60 wpm straight to the teletype without having to transcribe!



Of course, the intercept operators were copying 5 letter code groups for
many hours a day, for months on end. They became very proficient.



Harold related to me how they could identify individual German operators
sending the code, and occasionally would get personal information on the
operators and their locations when the operators would chat with each
other. They assigned all of the German operators nicknames, based on the
particular operator’s “fist” and the characteristics of their transmitter.
So even with a new German operator, the characteristics of the transmitter
‘sound’ could give away the transmitter location.



As a new general class ham in 1963, I joined Army Mars – that was how I met
Harold. The first thing the local Mars director did to a new member was
assign them as net control for a cw net. And, what a way to get your code
speed up. Some of the net members would ‘check in’ to the net at 20-25 wpm,
some at 50-60 wpm, almost all using Bugs. As the protocol of the net was
fixed, you could muddle through as net control if you could copy at ~20
wpm. However, it only took a couple of months and you were up to at least
30-35 wpm for self preservation. Also, by the time a net member sent their
first character or two of code, you knew who the member was. Identification
was a combination of the operator’s fist, and the characteristics of their
transmitter. There would be a slight signal chirp, key click, power supply
hum, etc. etc. on the signal. All of the transmitters were tube, of course,
and they all sounded a little different.



The old time hams and telegraphers who came by the Vibroplex booth at
hamfests always stopped to chat and send a few characters on one of the
display bugs. And every single one of them would say, “this bug needs
adjusting”, and proceed to make adjustments. That is one of the reasons
each operator sounded different on the air, their bug was adjusted just the
way they liked it. I spend a lot of time readjusting bugs! A favorite
diversion of mine was to have a left handed display bug.  People would come
up to the display, not notice that the bug was left handed, and try to send
with it. They would complain, something is wrong with this bug. I would
reach across the table, the bug being ‘right hand’ for me and send a few
characters, and say no, this bug is just fine.



Not many people left who know how to properly adjust a bug, it is a simple
1, 2, 3. I need to make a YouTube video on how to do it. J



Mitch W4OA
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