Re: [time-nuts] New PPB rated TCXO

[Henry Hallam]

I can attest that that oscillator was a lifesaver recently in a
project I was tangentially involved with.  They had tried several
TCXOs and were plagued with thermal and vibration sensitivity.  They
dropped in the SiTime and it worked like a charm.

Henry

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts
 wrote:
> The video linked on that page is particularly interesting (if you take it on 
> face value that they're not faking it. ;) ).
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Robert LaJeunesse  wrote:
>>
>> For general group information, as SiTime datasheet is not open to the public 
>> (yet?).
>>
>> https://www.sitime.com/products/precision-super-tcxo
>>
>> Actually a MEMS oscillator, comparison video against quartz TCXO is 
>> interesting.
>>
>> Claimed Key Features:
>> - 30x better dynamic performance for macro cells, small cells, syncE and 
>> optical networks
>> - 3e-11 Allan Deviation (ADEV)
>> - 0.2 ps/mv PSNR, eliminating dedicated LDO
>> - No activity dips or microjumps
>> - 10x better dynamic stability, replacing OCXOs in IEEE 1588 applications
>> - 1 to 5 ppb/°C frequency over temperature slope
>> - -40°C to +105°C operation uniquely enables fan-less outdoor equipment
>> - 20x greater vibration resistance ensures continuous system operation
>>
>> Frequency range 1MHz to 220MHz (via 2 product types) so some form of 
>> synthesizer/divider is inherent.
>>
>> Bob L.
>> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] New PPB rated TCXO

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

The video linked on that page is particularly interesting (if you take it on 
face value that they're not faking it. ;) ).

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Robert LaJeunesse  wrote:
> 
> For general group information, as SiTime datasheet is not open to the public 
> (yet?).
> 
> https://www.sitime.com/products/precision-super-tcxo
> 
> Actually a MEMS oscillator, comparison video against quartz TCXO is 
> interesting.
> 
> Claimed Key Features:
> - 30x better dynamic performance for macro cells, small cells, syncE and 
> optical networks
> - 3e-11 Allan Deviation (ADEV)
> - 0.2 ps/mv PSNR, eliminating dedicated LDO
> - No activity dips or microjumps
> - 10x better dynamic stability, replacing OCXOs in IEEE 1588 applications
> - 1 to 5 ppb/°C frequency over temperature slope
> - -40°C to +105°C operation uniquely enables fan-less outdoor equipment 
> - 20x greater vibration resistance ensures continuous system operation
> 
> Frequency range 1MHz to 220MHz (via 2 product types) so some form of 
> synthesizer/divider is inherent.
> 
> Bob L.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Alan Melia]

There is another way to those possible Dave Kirby quotes.remember 
silicon foundry lines run lots of wafers through the fab line at one time 
these are tested automatically and inked at the end of the process and put 
inro store. The wafer are drawn and cut and encapsulated (sometime halfway 
round the world from the fab line) when required. It being possible that 
high yeilding wafers are drawn first. It is possible low yeilding wafers my 
be returned to the silicon refiner to use as material for a new batch of 
rods (boule). These may be intercepted or bought by a small company for whom 
it is worthwhile to bond up chip from low yield wafers. On the other hand 
they could wash off the ink (testfail marker) and bond up the lot making 
money out of known duds that look genuine if opened (difficult with plastic 
encapsulation, without damaging the chip metallisation) I have bought old 
3inch wafer in the past on eBay to use as lecture samples. They had a 
genuine looking device on them but no id.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Alexander Pummer" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller


Once upon the time I designed some power-supplies, used parts from a sound 
name US company, they asked for $12.-- each  --it was long time ego -- the 
equipment supposed to built in Asia, the manager -- I was one outside 
consultant -- told me that we can not use that expensive parts, my Chinese 
colleague told, that I should not worry that part will not cost more than 
a dollar, at the end we got the parts for 57 cents in Hong Kong,  the 
manager was on the opinion that the cheap parts are counterfeit, therefore 
we opened  one expensive original and one cheap one; the silicon was 
identical, as the performance toowas it a perfect copy, or one 
original?, who cares it worked like the original, but much cheaper.


73
KL6UHN
Alex

On 10/10/2016 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:


Poul-Henning wrote:

And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
during the parts removal process.


I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic
kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all 
scratching

each other. The bag was not anti-static.

There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made 
so

cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards.

* The chips are counterfeit
* The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been
relabeled.
* They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've 
heard
described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but 
are

the same devices.
* They are recycled.
* They are stolen.

It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from 
eBay.

Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not.

You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from 
a

reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that
the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get 
caught,

but they are more likely to be ok.

I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung
Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with
this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit.  I thought I'd be
safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading 
reviews
on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries 
either,

so I did not buy from Amazon.

Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now 
works
ok.  I don't know if  Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but 
I

think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from
anywhere else.

I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell,
but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay
and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now 
I

will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable.

Dave.
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13182 - Release Date: 
10/10/16


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Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software

[Bryan _]

Found another one that works quite well with NMEA sentences. U-Centre. It is 
written for the U-Blox receivers but does give a lot of useful information from 
the NMEA data it can interpret. Free as well.


https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/u-center-windows



-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bryan _ 

Sent: September 15, 2016 10:22 PM
To: TIme Nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software

There is also winlabmon, but I could not get it to work on Windows 10.
http://www.gpskit.nl/downloads-nl.htm
Rockwell Jupiter GPS kit downloads
www.gpskit.nl
Downloads Rockwell GPS module documentatie. Alle beschikbare documentatie van 
de serie Rockwell Jupiter GPS modules is hier bij elkaar gebracht. Deze 2 PDF 
bestanden ...




-=Bryan=-

> From: bpl...@outlook.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:42:05 -0700
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software
>
> http://infixtechnologies.com/products/GPSMonitor/GPSMonitor.php
[http://infixtechnologies.com/images/GPSMonitorThumbnail.jpg]

Infix Technologies - 
GPSMonitor
infixtechnologies.com
GPSMonitor Click to enlarge. Download GPSMonitor now and use the full 
application for free! No registration or licensing needed. If you can't 
download the ...



>
> -=Bryan=-
>
> > From: w1...@earthlink.net
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:51:57 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software
> >
> > GPS Monitor is too vague to do a Google on, can you be a bit more specific ?
> >
> > Tnx, Dick, W1KSZ
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bryan _
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 PM
> > To: TIme Nuts
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software
> >
> > Let me try this again, for some reason my email strips out  on this 
> > list Lady Heather, WinOncore12, SirfOnCore, VisualGPSXP, GPS Monitor.
> >
> > -=Bryan=-
> >
> > > From: bpl...@outlook.com
> > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:22:35 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software
> > >
> > > Few that I have used
> > > Lady HeatherWinOnore12SirfOnCoreVisualGPSXP
> > >
> > > -=Bryan=-
> > >
> > > > From: w1...@earthlink.net
> > > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:00:16 -0700
> > > > Subject: [time-nuts] N1JEZ GPSDO Monitor Software
> > > >
> > > > I found one that I built many years ago and would like to see if it
> > > > still works.
> > > >
> > > > I forget which monitoring software I used, but it most likely is
> > > > woefully out
> > > >
> > > > of date today.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Anything else (besides TAC32) that I could use ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tnx, Dick, w1KSZ
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Like it or not, these days the volume purchases of IC’s are made in China. 
Volume buys
have *always* been lower cost than normal distribution pricing. A > 10:1 ratio 
is not at
all out of the question. If I bought 10,000,000 of a chip each month, I’d 
expect (and probably
get)  a very good deal on that chip. I probably have a number of friends who 
would love
to get chips at (or near) the 10M / mo price. Welcome to “Lets Make a Deal”. 
You now
have parts leaking into a grey market. No certs, no ability to trace them back 
(I don’t want
to get in trouble for “sharing”). 

That’s the “bright side” of gray market parts. The “dark side” is that a *lot* 
of chips are fabricated
and / or packaged in China by independent outfits. A wafer or ten goes astray, 
it gets packaged 
and off the result goes to the grey market. No testing, no QA, no trace back. 
Darker still are
pulls or clones. Its always a gamble ….

Bobn



> On Oct 10, 2016, at 1:28 PM, Alexander Pummer  wrote:
> 
> Once upon the time I designed some power-supplies, used parts from a sound 
> name US company, they asked for $12.-- each  --it was long time ego -- the 
> equipment supposed to built in Asia, the manager -- I was one outside 
> consultant -- told me that we can not use that expensive parts, my Chinese 
> colleague told, that I should not worry that part will not cost more than a 
> dollar, at the end we got the parts for 57 cents in Hong Kong,  the manager 
> was on the opinion that the cheap parts are counterfeit, therefore we opened  
> one expensive original and one cheap one; the silicon was identical, as the 
> performance toowas it a perfect copy, or one original?, who cares it 
> worked like the original, but much cheaper.
> 
> 73
> KL6UHN
> Alex
> 
> On 10/10/2016 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:
>> On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Poul-Henning wrote:
>>> 
>>> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
>>> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
>>> during the parts removal process.
>> 
>> I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic
>> kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all scratching
>> each other. The bag was not anti-static.
>> 
>> There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made so
>> cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards.
>> 
>> * The chips are counterfeit
>> * The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been
>> relabeled.
>> * They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've heard
>> described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but are
>> the same devices.
>> * They are recycled.
>> * They are stolen.
>> 
>> It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from eBay.
>> Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not.
>> 
>> You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from a
>> reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that
>> the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get caught,
>> but they are more likely to be ok.
>> 
>> I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung
>> Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with
>> this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit.  I thought I'd be
>> safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading reviews
>> on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries either,
>> so I did not buy from Amazon.
>> 
>> Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now works
>> ok.  I don't know if  Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but I
>> think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from
>> anywhere else.
>> 
>> I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell,
>> but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay
>> and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now I
>> will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable.
>> 
>> Dave.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13182 - Release Date: 10/10/16
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Alexander Pummer]

Once upon the time I designed some power-supplies, used parts from a 
sound name US company, they asked for $12.-- each  --it was long time 
ego -- the equipment supposed to built in Asia, the manager -- I was one 
outside consultant -- told me that we can not use that expensive parts, 
my Chinese colleague told, that I should not worry that part will not 
cost more than a dollar, at the end we got the parts for 57 cents in 
Hong Kong,  the manager was on the opinion that the cheap parts are 
counterfeit, therefore we opened  one expensive original and one cheap 
one; the silicon was identical, as the performance toowas it a 
perfect copy, or one original?, who cares it worked like the original, 
but much cheaper.


73
KL6UHN
Alex

On 10/10/2016 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:


Poul-Henning wrote:

And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
during the parts removal process.


I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic
kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all scratching
each other. The bag was not anti-static.

There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made so
cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards.

* The chips are counterfeit
* The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been
relabeled.
* They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've heard
described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but are
the same devices.
* They are recycled.
* They are stolen.

It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from eBay.
Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not.

You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from a
reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that
the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get caught,
but they are more likely to be ok.

I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung
Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with
this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit.  I thought I'd be
safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading reviews
on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries either,
so I did not buy from Amazon.

Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now works
ok.  I don't know if  Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but I
think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from
anywhere else.

I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell,
but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay
and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now I
will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable.

Dave.
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13182 - Release Date: 10/10/16


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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> Poul-Henning wrote:
>
> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
>>
>
> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
> during the parts removal process.


I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic
kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all scratching
each other. The bag was not anti-static.

There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made so
cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards.

* The chips are counterfeit
* The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been
relabeled.
* They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've heard
described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but are
the same devices.
* They are recycled.
* They are stolen.

It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from eBay.
Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not.

You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from a
reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that
the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get caught,
but they are more likely to be ok.

I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung
Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with
this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit.  I thought I'd be
safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading reviews
on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries either,
so I did not buy from Amazon.

Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now works
ok.  I don't know if  Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but I
think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from
anywhere else.

I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell,
but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay
and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now I
will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable.

Dave.
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[time-nuts] New PPB rated TCXO

[Robert LaJeunesse]

For general group information, as SiTime datasheet is not open to the public 
(yet?).

https://www.sitime.com/products/precision-super-tcxo

Actually a MEMS oscillator, comparison video against quartz TCXO is interesting.

Claimed Key Features:
- 30x better dynamic performance for macro cells, small cells, syncE and 
optical networks
- 3e-11 Allan Deviation (ADEV)
- 0.2 ps/mv PSNR, eliminating dedicated LDO
- No activity dips or microjumps
- 10x better dynamic stability, replacing OCXOs in IEEE 1588 applications
- 1 to 5 ppb/°C frequency over temperature slope
- -40°C to +105°C operation uniquely enables fan-less outdoor equipment 
- 20x greater vibration resistance ensures continuous system operation

Frequency range 1MHz to 220MHz (via 2 product types) so some form of 
synthesizer/divider is inherent.

Bob L.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[paul swed]

Yes I saw the same thing. $825. Wow! Plus the old shipping on top.
Happy birthday to someone.
What was interesting was the ebait and switch email last night. Blah blah
available so I was curious to see how it was going. They showed some hp
audio generator. Oh sorry that item sold so we gave you this instead. Sad
day in ebait land.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> Somebody must have really wanted this thing—sold for over $800!
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Monday, October 3, 2016,  wrote:
>
> > I have worked on these and the electronics is almost always working, or
> > easily repaired.
> > The mechanical can cause problems depending on how much "time" it has on
> > the clock mechanics.
> > No XTAL in these as the drive is external.
> > The case is hermetic and has dessicant inside.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Corby Dawson
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tom,

On 10/09/2016 10:07 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Hi Magnus,

I run into this all the time. Some thoughts...

1) My *work-around* is to adjust the REF 1PPS by tens of microseconds, or even 
500 ms. That avoids running into sign changes and skipped samples when a TIC 
gets near zero. This works really well for stable clocks where 500 ms drift is 
next to impossible.


Well, that is one option. However, as I care about where my zero line 
is, it's annoying to operate in TimeLab.


The main problem I try to illustrate is the shift from tau = 1 s to
tau = 2 s, which can be a dominant case (say 50% of all samples) while 
the through zero is annoying, but is more in the neighborhood of below 1 
% of all samples.



2) My *solution* is to use time-stamping counters (TSC) instead of time interval counters (TIC). With 
time-stamping you avoid all the hassles of a TIC. There is no worry about CH1 vs. CH2, there are no sign 
changes, there are no missed samples, it doesn't matter if the sources are fast or slow, or ahead of behind. 
There is no concept of "start" or "stop", but only "when".

For high-end TSC, I use a CNT-90 (or equiv) and for low-end I use my little 
picPET. It gets even more useful if you have multiple, synchronized time 
stamping counters.


If all the counters we lay out hands on where capable of it, then no 
question about it. I made the distinct case that we are not always 
fortunate to have such counter available, and still want to make decent 
enought measurements. I wanted to both explain the problem, show the 
wiring setup and then propose minor software changes to make it much 
easier to use.


If I where to use any counter in my private setup, then things would 
quickly become much simpler. I intentionally stepped out of that case 
and illustrated the hurdles of a fairly common clock.



3) The problems you are running into get far worse the less accurate and less 
stable the sources are (such as mains, mechanical, vintage quartz, and pendulum 
clocks). So that's why I developed the picPET time-stamping counter. It's 400 
ns resolution is not good enough for you. Even the new 10 ns version isn't good 
enough for your needs.

But a fellow time nut is working on a 100 ps version which will do both time 
stamping and time interval. That, finally, will solve the problems everyone has 
with TIC's. However, I still use hp 53131A/53132A a lot in my lab and simply 
avoid the TIC problem using #1 above.


I intentionally steered clear from build another devise. Naturally, if a 
sufficiently good and price-worthy one would be easily available, it 
would remove much of the worries. Until then, lest than ideal hardware 
and then try to use some additional signals and some software to make 
things behave sufficiently good.



4) TimeLab already has support for some time stamping counters -- under Acquire 
click on Timestamp instead of Phase or Frequency.


I know, but it does not really help with the given conditions.

Think of the cases where a guy just got his first TIC like HP5335A or 
HP53131A, or for that matter, one is laying around unused and can be put 
into use. I found that the PM6654C to be quite accurate for some 
measurements, even if I have better counters available.


What I try to achieve is more practical measures rather than more 
ultimate measures. Where good enough has cleared of some issues, but 
give good enough details and read-outs. I can then run my highly 
specialized rig separately.



Alternatively you can write simple tools that translate time stamp data to phase 
difference data or frequency data and then use TimeLab the way you usually do. The trick 
is to use the "Live ASCII file"input option. Also use fflush() in your C code 
(or equiv). That way you retain the real-time display feature that TimeLab provides.


Translating externally to TimeLab is certainly a possibility, but I 
propose these improvements into TimeLab as I think they are not all that 
complex and I think many will benefit from them. Giftwrapping of 
commonly reoccurring problems.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Inexpensive Alternative to a 5120A

[Bob Camp]

Hi



> On Oct 10, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> Let's back up, start over.   I want to use an SDR-like thing to
> characterize my new 10MHz oscillator, or actually to compare it to my
> Thunderbolt
> What are the steps?

The test document on an OCXO or a GPSDO runs into several dozen to several 
hundred pages. It also sub-references multiple documents of similar size. All 
that 
gets only just so deep. The assumption is that routine maintenance and 
calibration
have taken care of a lot of other things. You do *not* want to dig into all 
that :)


> 
> Then after we list the steps I want to see why so many samples are required

The original paper did a direct sample of the signal. Nyquist gets you into the 
> 20 mega
sample range. 

> 
> Or maybe a better way to ask is "How will the results be limited if I
> can only sample at 2.3 MSPS?

They use the dual ADC simultaneous sample process to reduce the jitter of the
sample. It’s in the paper. 

> 
> Obviously I'n not directly sampling there 10MHz signal.  I'm sampling
> there frequency difference that a mixer gives me.

Then build a DMTD with a stable / low noise reference rather than the poor
stability reference in a SDR dongle. 

Again, no free lunch :)

Bob

> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 9, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Chris Albertson  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Likely the lowest cost way to get into that is with a TV tuner USB
>>> dongle. They cost about $20.   People are able to get about 2.4 mega
>>> samples per second.
>> 
>> Except that you need about 30 mega samples ...
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Inexpensive Alternative to a 5120A

[Chris Albertson]

Let's back up, start over.   I want to use an SDR-like thing to
characterize my new 10MHz oscillator, or actually to compare it to my
Thunderbolt
What are the steps?

Then after we list the steps I want to see why so many samples are required

Or maybe a better way to ask is "How will the results be limited if I
can only sample at 2.3 MSPS?

Obviously I'n not directly sampling there 10MHz signal.  I'm sampling
there frequency difference that a mixer gives me.


On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>> On Oct 9, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Chris Albertson  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Likely the lowest cost way to get into that is with a TV tuner USB
>> dongle. They cost about $20.   People are able to get about 2.4 mega
>> samples per second.
>
> Except that you need about 30 mega samples ...
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tom,

On 10/10/2016 11:49 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Hi Magnus, two questions for you:


I can shift the phase of the DUT intentionally, but if so I want to be
able to compensate that shift in the software. Now, such a shift should
be kept separate from the calibration factors which fills a different
purpose.


If you can shift the DUT phase, you're all set. No need for most of the most of 
the discussion going on, right? What is the frequency error or stability of the 
DUT? A 500 ms shift should provide days to years of time before you'd hit the 
TIC zero.


Go back and read my original posting as well as fairly early follow-up 
posting.


I have a locked system, I can move the phase in this case, but I need 
the assistance of the post-processing to get the zero offset values 
presented properly, and I heavily use the real-time display.


Similarly, I propose improved processing through simple shift of sign 
and phase-unwrapping focused around zero.


Notice that there can be different offsets of different origins, and one 
want to set them independently for ease of use.


For the case at hand, any through zero sample skip is a rare case but 
the negative sample skip dominates.



The trick that I then apply is to use a stop signal of higher frequency,
but who's rising edge matches that of the PPS on the PPS occurence, and
then let my DUT signal PPS be the start signal, as that will then
defined the tau-rate. With a 100 Hz signal I now have 10 ms period and
then from the last stop-time I have 990 ms for the counter to re-arm the
start-channel, and thus hide the dead-time. This is the picket fence
approach rather than having alternate counters to cover up each others
dead-time.


I've tried this. In general the picket fence method has no effect on you 
hitting the awkward region near 0 ns where the TIC waffles between - and +. In 
fact, a 100 Hz picket fence just means you will run into the TIC dead zone 100 
times more often, but the effect the dead zone will be 100x less. To me this 
suggests that 2 Hz is all that is necessary, as PHK and I have mentioned. I 
almost hesitate to call 2 Hz a picket fence.


As I said, the through-zero problems are much less of an issue.
The 100 Hz was free and available, 2 Hz or 10 Hz would also do the 
trick, so don't hang up on the frequency as it is more to illustrate the 
setup I did.



Or are we missing something? Is there some advantage to 10 Hz or 100 Hz over 2 
Hz? It seems to me they all solve the problem where the counter start/stop 
accidentally gets turned into stop/start near the 0 ns region, which leads to 
sampling every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second for a while.


As long as you have an integer multiple, you're all fine. It's really 
what is handy which is important and preferably the period should be 
shorter than the dead-time, but as long as the software can compensate 
for multiple skipped periods we don't care about that either.


Remember, I'm measuring phase and trying to measure deviation from 
"absolute phase". I want my view to be as unbiased as possible.

This is different from just trying to make stability measures.

I'm trying to illustrate the measurement challenges and then propose 
some enhancements to TimeLab that will help immensely to provide good 
values. Much of this thread ended up covering gazillions of other cases, 
including "use this counter instead".


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Charles Steinmetz]

Poul-Henning wrote:


And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".


Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment 
during the parts removal process.  There have been lots of videos and 
descriptions on the web that are truly eye-opening.  The process 
generally involves an intense heat source (everything from gas stove 
burners to campfires) over which children hold PC boards, and when the 
solder is good and flowing (maybe hundreds of degrees above its melting 
point) they give the boards a mighty whack on the edge of a table so the 
parts come flying off.


They are NOT using temperature-controlled vacuum desoldering stations.

I'm not particularly interested in a voltage reference IC that has been 
overheated for a prolonged period, then subjected while hot to a 50G whack.


Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Magnus, two questions for you:

> I can shift the phase of the DUT intentionally, but if so I want to be 
> able to compensate that shift in the software. Now, such a shift should 
> be kept separate from the calibration factors which fills a different 
> purpose.

If you can shift the DUT phase, you're all set. No need for most of the most of 
the discussion going on, right? What is the frequency error or stability of the 
DUT? A 500 ms shift should provide days to years of time before you'd hit the 
TIC zero.

> The trick that I then apply is to use a stop signal of higher frequency, 
> but who's rising edge matches that of the PPS on the PPS occurence, and 
> then let my DUT signal PPS be the start signal, as that will then 
> defined the tau-rate. With a 100 Hz signal I now have 10 ms period and 
> then from the last stop-time I have 990 ms for the counter to re-arm the 
> start-channel, and thus hide the dead-time. This is the picket fence 
> approach rather than having alternate counters to cover up each others 
> dead-time.

I've tried this. In general the picket fence method has no effect on you 
hitting the awkward region near 0 ns where the TIC waffles between - and +. In 
fact, a 100 Hz picket fence just means you will run into the TIC dead zone 100 
times more often, but the effect the dead zone will be 100x less. To me this 
suggests that 2 Hz is all that is necessary, as PHK and I have mentioned. I 
almost hesitate to call 2 Hz a picket fence.

Or are we missing something? Is there some advantage to 10 Hz or 100 Hz over 2 
Hz? It seems to me they all solve the problem where the counter start/stop 
accidentally gets turned into stop/start near the 0 ns region, which leads to 
sampling every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second for a while.

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Clint Jay]

I think those voltage reference ICs have been done to death over on EEVBlog
and the general consensus is that they work very well, the only counterfeit
part is the 'calibration' sheet that comes with them, they seem to be done
on a photocopier.

They also appear to exceed the accuracy specifications of the part suffix,
my own experience of the three I own is very positive and they've been
checked by a friend who has access to some rather nice HP bench meters.

I would however be very wary of buying surplus OCXOs from eBay, some appear
to have been remove from boards by percussive means (BFO guage hammer) if
some of the pictures are representative of the devices for sale.

On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> Poul-Henning wrote:
>
> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
>>
>
> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
> during the parts removal process.  There have been lots of videos and
> descriptions on the web that are truly eye-opening.  The process generally
> involves an intense heat source (everything from gas stove burners to
> campfires) over which children hold PC boards, and when the solder is good
> and flowing (maybe hundreds of degrees above its melting point) they give
> the boards a mighty whack on the edge of a table so the parts come flying
> off.
>
> They are NOT using temperature-controlled vacuum desoldering stations.
>
> I'm not particularly interested in a voltage reference IC that has been
> overheated for a prolonged period, then subjected while hot to a 50G whack.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Francesco Messineo]

Hi Bob,
I will send you my dump, but you have to wait at least until tomorrow
evening. I'm not near my backups today.
I can confirm that 2 x 28C64 (I used ST parts, so if you can scope
your Atmels for glitch, I would be very much curious to see if they've
the same problem) worked in my 59309A, but for example the same
replacement failed in the 5328A HPIB option state machine (and worked
in the main 5328A state machine...) so it's probably a matter of luck
on the timings and the glitches.
I have already planned a CPLD replacement for these small ROMs, but
really it needs time
to get back the dumps and running each output into the program that
reconstruct the equation, then programming all the 16 equation into a
suitable CPLD, make the PCB, program it and so on...


On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Bob  wrote:
> Hi Francesco,
>
> That's wonderful, I hadn't dreamt that anyone has dumped out that ROM.  If 
> you can find your copy of your good 1818-2295A ROM it would let us avoid 
> trying to fix the bit rot in the one I was able to read, especially as we 
> don't know if the 1818-2295A exactly matches the tables in the user manual.
>
> Just this afternoon I ordered a couple Atmel AT28C64 EEPROMs and a 28 pin DIP 
> header. When the parts arrive I'll try replacing U2 with them.  The original 
> part is 5v signals and the modern parts can ignore the +12 and -2 pins, and 
> of course are erasable.  As the Teensy++ easily reads the HP part, and will 
> read the pin compatible new replacement, it should be possible to have the 
> replacement match the bits in the manual.  At least I'll not have a stuck 
> LOAD pin :)
>
> Agreed about modern fast parts glitching but watching the logic analyzer, it 
> seems the 59309A samples the ROM in a very relaxed manner using the TP2 slow 
> clock, maybe we can get by without a CPLD.
>
> I'll report back after writing and testing EEPROMs*.  Knowing that you had 
> success is a great encouragement.
>
> Hi Paul and Don,
>
> Thank you both *very* much for checking the U2 part number on your clocks.  
> That you both see 1818-2295A is terrific, it means that the ROM version in 
> this clock matches its serial prefix.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
> N2CJL
>
> * The two main state machines have 8 and 53 states, and with logic analyzer 
> watching the EEPROM it should be possible to follow along.  It is a nice 
> little computer with constant time instructions, 64 bits of RAM.  Each 
> instruction contains a conditional qualifier along with the next address, 
> very 1960s.
>
>
>
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 12:32 AM, Francesco Messineo 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>> right, once I find the dumps, I'll upload them.
>> thanks
>> Frank IZ8DWF
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Artek Manuals  
>> wrote:
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> One of the best places to store ROM dumps for easy access by everyon is
>>> KO4BB.com
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> NR1DX
>>> dit dit
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2016 3:20 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

 I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived in
 one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board having 2 x
 28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as far as I could test
 it. However these eeproms present many glitches on the outputs during
 address toggling, so it's way better to use a suitable CPLD after
 recovering the equations (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
 of time...).
 If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll dig it out.
 HTH
 Frank IZ8DWF
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave
>>> manu...@artekmanuals.com
>>> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <74DC70F096704AF8958028919BE7688A@pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:

>The key to your dual counter proposal is the half-period delay.
>Consider these variations:

Yes, running 2Hz STOP will also work, with the footnote that you
still need to resolve the 2Hz ambiguity, which admittedly is easier.



-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Bob]

Hi Francesco,

That's wonderful, I hadn't dreamt that anyone has dumped out that ROM.  If you 
can find your copy of your good 1818-2295A ROM it would let us avoid trying to 
fix the bit rot in the one I was able to read, especially as we don't know if 
the 1818-2295A exactly matches the tables in the user manual.

Just this afternoon I ordered a couple Atmel AT28C64 EEPROMs and a 28 pin DIP 
header. When the parts arrive I'll try replacing U2 with them.  The original 
part is 5v signals and the modern parts can ignore the +12 and -2 pins, and of 
course are erasable.  As the Teensy++ easily reads the HP part, and will read 
the pin compatible new replacement, it should be possible to have the 
replacement match the bits in the manual.  At least I'll not have a stuck LOAD 
pin :)

Agreed about modern fast parts glitching but watching the logic analyzer, it 
seems the 59309A samples the ROM in a very relaxed manner using the TP2 slow 
clock, maybe we can get by without a CPLD.

I'll report back after writing and testing EEPROMs*.  Knowing that you had 
success is a great encouragement.

Hi Paul and Don,

Thank you both *very* much for checking the U2 part number on your clocks.  
That you both see 1818-2295A is terrific, it means that the ROM version in this 
clock matches its serial prefix.

Cheers,

Bob
N2CJL

* The two main state machines have 8 and 53 states, and with logic analyzer 
watching the EEPROM it should be possible to follow along.  It is a nice little 
computer with constant time instructions, 64 bits of RAM.  Each instruction 
contains a conditional qualifier along with the next address, very 1960s.



> On Oct 10, 2016, at 12:32 AM, Francesco Messineo 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave,
> right, once I find the dumps, I'll upload them.
> thanks
> Frank IZ8DWF
> 
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Artek Manuals  
> wrote:
>> Frank
>> 
>> One of the best places to store ROM dumps for easy access by everyon is
>> KO4BB.com
>> 
>> Dave
>> NR1DX
>> dit dit
>> 
>> On 10/10/2016 3:20 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived in
>>> one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board having 2 x
>>> 28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as far as I could test
>>> it. However these eeproms present many glitches on the outputs during
>>> address toggling, so it's way better to use a suitable CPLD after
>>> recovering the equations (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
>>> of time...).
>>> If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll dig it out.
>>> HTH
>>> Frank IZ8DWF
>> 
>> --
>> Dave
>> manu...@artekmanuals.com
>> www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Tom Van Baak]

Poul-Henning,

The key to your dual counter proposal is the half-period delay. Consider these 
variations:

1) Use the GPIB "change-flank-on-the-fly" trick I mentioned yesterday. Only one 
counter is necessary. The symmetrical (50.00% duty cycle) output of the 
PPSDIV is useful here too.

2)  Use one counter with 2PPS instead of 1PPS as the stop channel REF. That way 
the TI readings will always be a number ranging from 0 to 500 ms, or depending 
on the counter, something more like -20 ns to 500ms-20ns. Regardless, the 
software that is processing the raw TI data can resolve the 0.5 s wrapping. The 
main feature is that every 1PPS from DUT gets measured. That is, you eliminate 
the case that we're all trying to avoid where the sample rate jumps from one 
per second to one per 2 seconds as you enter the region where the TI is too 
close to 0.

With a 10 MHz reference, anyone with a TADD-2 (board or mini) can set the input 
jumper from 10 MHz to 5 MHz. Then the "1PPS" output becomes 2PPS.

3) Looking at my various PICDIV I see there's a way to program a 5/10 MHz -> 
1PPS divider so that the user can step the phase of the output by, say 
+/-500.000 000 ms. So the idea is that the PC program reading the TI data from 
the counter stays content as long as the TI readings are within a range of say 
200 ms to 800 ms. If the TI values slowly drift outside that range it tells the 
PICDIV to advance or retard the divider once by exactly 0.500 000 000 s.

The beauty of this approach is that:
- you only need one counter,
- the counter may run in talk-only mode (no need for GPIB),
- the counter never operates anywhere near the TI = 0 point,
- no DUT readings are ever lost,
- your software (or TimeLab) can easily resolve the wrapping when it sees the 
500 ms phase jumps,
- the PICDIV advance/retard pins can be driven by a PC serial port DTR/RTS 
lines,
- the output of the program that gets TI readings and issues the occasional 
step commands to the PIC can output wrapped phase, or unwrapped phase, or 
timestamps as the user wishes. TimeLab accepts all three.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
; "Magnus Danielson" 
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2016 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab


> 
> In message <0f6c1eb7-18cb-06e3-48dd-6cd618f19...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus 
> D
> anielson writes:
> 
>>This is why the two-counter setup is so messy, you have to have software 
>>that will sync up and query them alternatively.
> 
> It is not that bad messy.
> 
> Counter A  Start=DUT, Stop=REF
> 
> Counter B  Start=DUT, Stop=REF + half period [1]
> 
> Now you know that at least one counter will always measure a DUT flank.
> 
> The crucial detail is that you also know that the counters will not
> spit out their result at the same time, so timestamping the
> measurements on the computer will definitively sort them into
> order[2].
> 
> I always run separate programs/scripts for each counter outputting
> into separate files, but that's a matter of temperatment.
> 
> You end up with a reliable sequence with three possible scenarios:
> 
> {AB}* fine...
> 
> {AB}*B{AB}*  lost one from A
> 
> {AB}*A{AB}*  lost one from B
> 
> And it is trivial to insert markers for the missing measurements.
> 
> In addition you end up with two entirely separate series of
> measurements which you can compare for sanity, and if they look
> good, you combine them and reduce your noise by sqrt(2)
> 
> Poul-Henning
> 
> [1] PPSDIV gives nice symmetrical PPS, just trigger opposite flank.
> 
> [2] Obviously: Do not use a computer running a weather model for this
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Francesco Messineo]

Hi Dave,
right, once I find the dumps, I'll upload them.
thanks
Frank IZ8DWF

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Artek Manuals  wrote:
> Frank
>
> One of the best places to store ROM dumps for easy access by everyon is
> KO4BB.com
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> dit dit
>
> On 10/10/2016 3:20 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived in
>> one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board having 2 x
>> 28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as far as I could test
>> it. However these eeproms present many glitches on the outputs during
>> address toggling, so it's way better to use a suitable CPLD after
>> recovering the equations (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
>> of time...).
>> If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll dig it out.
>> HTH
>> Frank IZ8DWF
>
>
>
> --
> Dave
> manu...@artekmanuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Artek Manuals]

Frank

One of the best places to store ROM dumps for easy access by everyon is 
KO4BB.com


Dave
NR1DX
dit dit

On 10/10/2016 3:20 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived in
one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board having 2 x
28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as far as I could test
it. However these eeproms present many glitches on the outputs during
address toggling, so it's way better to use a suitable CPLD after
recovering the equations (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
of time...).
If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll dig it out.
HTH
Frank IZ8DWF



--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Francesco Messineo]

I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived in
one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board having 2 x
28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as far as I could test
it. However these eeproms present many glitches on the outputs during
address toggling, so it's way better to use a suitable CPLD after
recovering the equations (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
of time...).
If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll dig it out.
HTH
Frank IZ8DWF

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:34 AM, Paul Berger  wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I just looked at the clock I am not using and it is 1818-2295A, it is not
> convenient for me to check the other one as it is running and in a place
> where I would have to disconnect it to get it out.   I could dump this ROM
> for you but it may take me a few days as I have other things on the go right
> now.
>
> Paul.
>
> On 2016-10-09 10:48 PM, Bob wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tom & Paul,
>>
>> Some progress with the HP 59309A clock debug.  Built a ROM reader
>> (Teensy++, a 28 pin WW socket, jumpers) and read out the HP 59309A U2 ROM.
>>
>> Compared the user manual to my readings, found three stuck output bits out
>> of sixteen, and another few dozen assorted differences out of the 4096 ROM
>> bits.
>>
>> Also, while moving U2 to the reader socket I noticed that the chip is
>> stamped 1818-2295A 2335 vs. the schematic which states U2 is a 1818-2193.
>> Perhaps the U2 state machine was updated?
>>
>> The O1 (part of Next Address) bit, O9 (LOAD) bit and O11 (Rout) bit always
>> read 0.  Together those stuck-at-0 bits compose the vast majority of the bit
>> differences.  LOAD being always zero explains why I don't see data written
>> into the RAM when watching with a logic analyzer.
>>
>> I'm 99% sure there is at least some bit rot, in particular there is a long
>> unused block at the end of the Talk Enable = 1 table, where all addresses
>> should match, and in the middle of that range there are just a few wrong
>> bits.
>>
>> A small number of differences exist in other Next Address and Next
>> Qualifier columns, but there are only a few, not easy to tell if they are
>> just changes to the state machine or more bit rot.
>>
>> Digging further, the serial number prefix 2510A is much newer than the
>> 1632A prefix mentioned in the manual I'm looking at, so there could be
>> differences in the schematic.  Not clear if HP change pages up to 2510A
>> exist, I've not found them so far.
>>
>> At this point, I can think of a few paths to take...
>>
>> a) Leave it alone, still works fine as a desk clock, but useless for
>> reading TOD via HP-IB.
>>
>> b) Build a little adapter board and replace U2 with a self-programmed 16
>> bit EPROM or a pair of 8 bit EPROMs.  I could use the code in the manual,
>> buzz out the circuit to validate the schematic, and (if needed) reverse
>> engineer the state machine.
>>
>> Tom and/or Paul, would you consider lifting the cover off your clock (just
>> 2 screws in the back) and peeking at the part number on your U2 chips?
>> That's the 28 pin ceramic ROM in the socket on the A5 board which is the one
>> at the far left looking from the front.  The ROM is at the top of the board
>> and should be visible without touching anything.
>>
>> If someone happens to have a ROM stamped 1818-2295A 2335, it would of
>> course be great to capture the bits, to remove the remaining guesswork in
>> creating a replacement image.  Naturally, I checked the ROMs on Didier's
>> site, but didn't see any for the 59309A.
>>
>> In conclusion, reading the U2 ROM shows three stuck bits, including LOAD,
>> which explains what I saw on the logic analyzer.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Inexpensive Alternative to a 5120A

[Michael Wouters]

The Red Pitaya is a lower cost (but lower performance) alternative to
the USRP boxes.

I've implemented a RF phase meter using the RP and get about 1 ps time
resolution at an averaging time of 1 s.
The RP analog input side seems to be a bit noisy so loses a few bits.
There was some discussion about this on timenuts some time back.

Someone has implemented an SDR on the RP
http://redpitaya.com/red-pitaya-and-software-defined-radio/
 - this may be useable in the same way as described in the NIST paper.
It's on my list to try it out some day.

The summary is that if you only want to pay $400, rather than $40 000,
you have to do some/a lot of work.

Cheers
Michael

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>> On Oct 9, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Chris Albertson  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Likely the lowest cost way to get into that is with a TV tuner USB
>> dongle. They cost about $20.   People are able to get about 2.4 mega
>> samples per second.
>
> Except that you need about 30 mega samples ...
>
>
>> Not a lot of dynamic range but you can control
>> that.Use a mixer to move the signal  of interest into the range
>> the tuner can handle.   Tuniers typically tune from about 20Mhz to
>> 1Ghz or 2Ghz approximate.
>
> You also need a very specific dual ADC architecture as described in the 
> paper. Their
> hardware was > $1K and probably the only suitable system at that low a price.
>
> No free lunch :)
>
> Bob
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Paul Boven  wrote:
>>> Hi Randal,
>>>
>>> On 2016-10-07 18:52:57, Cube Central wrote:

 Is there an alternative that someone could point me to that would cost
 only a couple hundred rather than (what I expect) is a couple thousand?  
 How
 would I go about gathering the data needed for these nifty ADEV graphs I 
 see
 floating about in here?
>>>
>>>
>>> People have reported (also on this list) that some SDR (software defined
>>> radio) hardware is quite capable of emulating a 5120/5125, and even going
>>> beyond it in performance.
>>>
>>> "Oscillator metrology with software defined radio, Sherman, J.A., Jördens,
>>> R." - arXiv:1605.03505 [physics.ins-det]
>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.03505
>>>
>>> Regards, Paul Boven.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)" writes:

>When I looked on
>eBay, the board was £2.25 delivered from China. The Analog Devices website
>shows the chip having a budgetary price of $7 in quantities of 1000 or
>more. So if the chips are $7 (£5-£6), how can they make a complete board,
>and pay the postage from China for £2.25? It seems to me highly likely
>those voltage reference chips are counterfeit. If not counterfeit, they are
>hardly legal devices.

You overlook the most likely scenario:  "Pre-owned".

China has _massive_ and very efficient recycling of electronic
components from all the E-Junk we send down there.

And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <0f6c1eb7-18cb-06e3-48dd-6cd618f19...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D
anielson writes:

>This is why the two-counter setup is so messy, you have to have software 
>that will sync up and query them alternatively.

It is not that bad messy.

Counter A  Start=DUT, Stop=REF

Counter B  Start=DUT, Stop=REF + half period [1]

Now you know that at least one counter will always measure a DUT flank.

The crucial detail is that you also know that the counters will not
spit out their result at the same time, so timestamping the
measurements on the computer will definitively sort them into
order[2].

I always run separate programs/scripts for each counter outputting
into separate files, but that's a matter of temperatment.

You end up with a reliable sequence with three possible scenarios:

{AB}* fine...

{AB}*B{AB}*  lost one from A

{AB}*A{AB}*  lost one from B

And it is trivial to insert markers for the missing measurements.

In addition you end up with two entirely separate series of
measurements which you can compare for sanity, and if they look
good, you combine them and reduce your noise by sqrt(2)

Poul-Henning

[1] PPSDIV gives nice symmetrical PPS, just trigger opposite flank.

[2] Obviously: Do not use a computer running a weather model for this

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