Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bernd Neubig]

Hello,
on the website of my company you can find a list of papers on the subject of 
crystal measurement techniques.
http://www.axtal.com/English/TechnicalNotes/TechnicalArticlesPublications/LiteratureaboutQuartzCrystals/

The actual standard procedure for crystal  measurement is by using modern 
network analyzers with error correction, as given in the IEC publication 
60444-5. 
A description of the method and its variants can be found in my 2012 paper 
listed on the mentioned website.
Enjoy

Bernd DK1AG


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Brooke Clarke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2018 20:13
An: tim...@timeok.it; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

Hi Luciano:

I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
(Saunders 150) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & 
Test Equipment (see Trivia below) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal 
Activity Meters http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit 
http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used in 
commercial crystal test sets like the HP E4915, E4916, E5100.

Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize 
watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance which is in the meg Ohms range.  Some 
of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an equivalent 
crystal equivalent circuit.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 
> Hi all,
> I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
> Boonton.
> I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
> documentation.
> I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
> I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
> can share it with me.
> Look at the picture thanks
> Luciano
>
>
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[time-nuts] Some comments on GPS timing

[Tom Clark]

Perhaps it is time that I step in to point the newer members of 
Time-Nuts to some of the historical (hysterical?) info on using  GPS to 
achieve sub-microsecond global timing sync. I refer you all to the 
website http://gpstime.com   that Rick Hambly (http://cnssys.com) 
maintains to document some of our timing exploits over the past ~25 
years starting with the early Motorola PVT-6 "SIXPACK" and proceeding 
thru the later ONCORE, M12 and UBLOX  receivers.


By explanation, I was one of the principal researchers that developed 
the technique of Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI) for high 
accuracy Geodesy and Astrometry. In VLBI we record raw noise from a wide 
RF bandwidth at a network of radio telescopes around the world. Most of 
the noise picked up at the stations is from the microwave receivers, the 
earth's atmosphere & the 2.7 degree  remnant background noise from the 
big bang -- the system noise resulting from all these sources at each 
station is independent and uncorrelated with noise at all the other 
telescopes.


But a small fraction of the noise originated at quasars which are 
(nearly) point sources with an angular sizes measured in fractions of 
milliseconds of arc (1 milliarcsec is about the size of George's head on 
a quarter held over over San Francisco as seen from Boston); the noise 
from these compact sources is correlated at the stations separated 
thousands of km and serve as reference points for the celestial 
reference frame. The telescopes define fixed points on the earth which 
constitute the terrestrial reference frame.


To extract the correlated signal VLBI each station uses an independent 
Hydrogen Maser clock as a time and frequency reference. The independent 
clocks need to be synchronized at nsec levels and to hold this 
synchronization for time scales up to several days. I realized that, if 
each station used a GPS-based timing system operating 24/7/365, we could 
solve the time/frequency sync needed to measure the "real-time" motions 
of the earth as the continents drift and the rotation of the earth and 
the sub-milliarcsec astrometric position and structure of the quasars.


FYI -- After 3+ decades of such measurements, we now know the few cm/yr 
(about the same speed as your fingernails grow) of relative motions of 
the continents (a.k.a. "continental drift") to uncertainties of tens of 
microns/yr. The celestial reference frame as defined by the  positions 
~1000 extragalactic radio sources is known to ~10 microarcseconds. You 
can see get a feeling for these results and the network of stations that 
produced them by browsing http://ivscc.gsfc.nasa.gov .


As you browse the material on http://gpstime.com you will see snapshots 
of our efforts at delivering low-cost GPS timing system intended for the 
VLBI station operators ("telescope drivers") updated every couple of 
years. Also you will find presentations we gave at several Precise Time 
and Time Interval (PTTI) meetings.


To answer a couple of the recent questions in more detail, take a look 
at the 2006 "Low Cost" PTTI paper :


1. For all the ONCORE and UBLOX receivers: The "sawtooth correction" is
   in the binary data message for the NEXT second. The receivers have
   an counter register that is updated based on the navigation firmware
   (typically a Kalman filter) to the integer number of clock counts
   corresponding to the next 1 PPS epoch. The sawtooth correction is
   the fractional part of the epoch that is left over after the integer
   clock count is set into the hardware.
2. In Rick's CNSCLOCK, a programmable delay line is fed from the
   fractional counter error (the "sawtooth correction" plus a small
   constant "DC" to center the correction in the delay line). The "DC"
   bias is treated as if it were a cable length correction.
3. My email address has changed from verizon.net: Now it is
   mailto:tom.k...@gmail.com

73 de Tom K3IO



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[time-nuts] Ublox M8T question

[Mark Sims]

I have it working now.The problem was the way I was interpreting the 
satellite system gnssid:svid values in the RAWX message.  Basically the data 
for all the sat systems were being mapped to GPS prns.

Heather has a command for configuring which GNSS constellations that you want 
to use.  Ublox devices have some limits on which constellations that you can 
enable at the same time.

Heather's RINEX writer now supports RINEX v2.11 and v3.03 (needs a couple of 
tweaks).But none of the processing services support v3.xx so no way to test 
it.  I'm currently writing a 2.11 file with GPS/SBAS/GLONASS/GALILEO data... 
hopefully that will work.   I've done GPS/GLONASS/SBAS files from a NVS-08C.

---

I think you need to look at the CFG-GNSS message to enable the
constellations that you want.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox M8T question

[Tim Lister]

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> I recently got in a Ublox M8T board in from CSGSHOP.   The M8T supposedly 
> outputs raw measurements (carrier phase, pseudorange, doppler) for all the 
> sat systems it supports, but I am only getting raw measurements for GPS and 
> SBAS... no Glonass or Galaileo.Any ideas why?   Has anybody gotten raw 
> data for GLONASS or Galileo out of a M8T:

Mark, I think you need to look at the CFG-GNSS message to enable the
constellations that you want. RTKLIB has a
data/ubx_m8t_glo_raw_1hz.cmd command file for enabling GLONASS so this
could give some pointers. (I've not tested this since my LEA-6T only
supports GPS+SBAS)

Tim
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Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

[paul swed]

Great to hear let us know how it turns out.
Regards

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Richard Solomon  wrote:

> In further button pushing, I found the Date was 1998 !! So, I manually
> reset the Date
>
> and Time and it's now doing a Satellite search.
>
>
> The previous measurements must have been some artifact of Holdover.
>
>
> One is now merrily searching, I'll let it run for a while.
>
>
> And, I think you are correct, the Battery must surely be dead by now. I'll
>
> look into replacing it.
>
>
> Thanks for replying,
>
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>
> Sent from Outlook
> 
> From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:56:46 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues
>
> Wow
> They actually came up. A site survey can take some 20 hours.
> There should be some LED indicator that says the status is locking.
> Let them run a day or two.
> If there is a LI battery to retain information that may be long gone.
> Replacing that would give you a fatser start.
> Had to do this on some Odetics receivers.
> Good luck
> Paul.
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > My guess would be that they are not in a mode that allows them to lock.
> > Some
> > GPSDO’s require a “start” command. Others hold off locking until a site
> > survey
> > is complete ( or they have verified the last survey is correct ).
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On May 23, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Richard Solomon 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have had two of these sitting on the shelf for years. Today I decided
> > to see if they work.
> > >
> > > It's a slow week !!
> > >
> > >
> > > I hooked them up to my external GPS Antenna through my Symmetricon
> > Splitter and
> > >
> > > looked at the 10 MHz output on my HP 5334B (reference input derived
> from
> > a Trimble
> > >
> > > T-Bolt).
> > >
> > >
> > > They both show a number of Satellites, but one reads 4.7 Hz low while
> > the other reads
> > >
> > > 1.3 Hz low. I expected better.
> > >
> > >
> > > Any thoughts on what would cause such a large deviation from 10 Mhz ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for any replies,
> > >
> > >
> > > 73, Dick, W1KSZ
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from Outlook
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> >
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[time-nuts] Ublox M8T question

[Mark Sims]

I recently got in a Ublox M8T board in from CSGSHOP.   The M8T supposedly 
outputs raw measurements (carrier phase, pseudorange, doppler) for all the sat 
systems it supports, but I am only getting raw measurements for GPS and SBAS... 
no Glonass or Galaileo.Any ideas why?   Has anybody gotten raw data for 
GLONASS or Galileo out of a M8T:

This is the receiver id info from the M8T:
#   Device: Ublox timing receiver
#   Unit type: Ublox GPS receiver
#   SW:EXT CORE 3.01 (41
#   HW:0008
#   ROM 1: ROM BASE 2.01 (75331)
#   ROM 2: FWVER=TIM 1.10
#   ROM 3: PROTVER=22.00
#   ROM 4: MOD=NEO-M8T-0
#   ROM 5: FIS=0xEF4015 (100111)
#   ROM 6: GPS;GLO;GAL;BDS
#   ROM 7: SBAS;IMES;QZSS
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Re: [time-nuts] Motorola GPS Antenna?

[Art Sepin]

Clint,

You have found a Motorola Timing2000 GPS antenna. Please see the Timing2000 GPS 
Antenna Specifications and Timing2000 GPS antenna technical presentation on 
this page:
http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=42=89

This was a popular, Motorola designed GPS antenna manufactured by Yokowo of 
Japan for Motorola's CDMA cell site timing products and for distributors like 
Synergy for general sales. After Motorola exited the GPS business in June of 
2005, Synergy continued to sell this design as a Synergy Timing3000 (no 
Motorola Logo) until it went EOL many years later.

Art Sepin


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Clint Jay
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 8:25 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola GPS Antenna?

Found on eBay with no further information, can anyone identify?

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2FEX-MOD-Motorola-Antenna%2F323177970249%3Fhash%3Ditem4b3ee87a49%3Ag%3AtHIAAOSwUCZavUAe=01%7C01%7Cart%40synergy-gps.com%7Cb924e6066af443cbd04408d5bf2f1141%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%7C1=3u9Jtg4%2BK2SZl0zRftds9T5sGPvDyiNju2ndDLrluB4%3D=0

--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number of 
electrons were greatly inconvenienced.* 
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Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

[Richard Solomon]

In further button pushing, I found the Date was 1998 !! So, I manually reset 
the Date

and Time and it's now doing a Satellite search.


The previous measurements must have been some artifact of Holdover.


One is now merrily searching, I'll let it run for a while.


And, I think you are correct, the Battery must surely be dead by now. I'll

look into replacing it.


Thanks for replying,


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook

From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed 

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:56:46 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

Wow
They actually came up. A site survey can take some 20 hours.
There should be some LED indicator that says the status is locking.
Let them run a day or two.
If there is a LI battery to retain information that may be long gone.
Replacing that would give you a fatser start.
Had to do this on some Odetics receivers.
Good luck
Paul.

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> My guess would be that they are not in a mode that allows them to lock.
> Some
> GPSDO’s require a “start” command. Others hold off locking until a site
> survey
> is complete ( or they have verified the last survey is correct ).
>
> Bob
>
> > On May 23, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Richard Solomon  wrote:
> >
> > I have had two of these sitting on the shelf for years. Today I decided
> to see if they work.
> >
> > It's a slow week !!
> >
> >
> > I hooked them up to my external GPS Antenna through my Symmetricon
> Splitter and
> >
> > looked at the 10 MHz output on my HP 5334B (reference input derived from
> a Trimble
> >
> > T-Bolt).
> >
> >
> > They both show a number of Satellites, but one reads 4.7 Hz low while
> the other reads
> >
> > 1.3 Hz low. I expected better.
> >
> >
> > Any thoughts on what would cause such a large deviation from 10 Mhz ?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for any replies,
> >
> >
> > 73, Dick, W1KSZ
> >
> >
> > Sent from Outlook
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

[paul swed]

Wow
They actually came up. A site survey can take some 20 hours.
There should be some LED indicator that says the status is locking.
Let them run a day or two.
If there is a LI battery to retain information that may be long gone.
Replacing that would give you a fatser start.
Had to do this on some Odetics receivers.
Good luck
Paul.

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> My guess would be that they are not in a mode that allows them to lock.
> Some
> GPSDO’s require a “start” command. Others hold off locking until a site
> survey
> is complete ( or they have verified the last survey is correct ).
>
> Bob
>
> > On May 23, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Richard Solomon  wrote:
> >
> > I have had two of these sitting on the shelf for years. Today I decided
> to see if they work.
> >
> > It's a slow week !!
> >
> >
> > I hooked them up to my external GPS Antenna through my Symmetricon
> Splitter and
> >
> > looked at the 10 MHz output on my HP 5334B (reference input derived from
> a Trimble
> >
> > T-Bolt).
> >
> >
> > They both show a number of Satellites, but one reads 4.7 Hz low while
> the other reads
> >
> > 1.3 Hz low. I expected better.
> >
> >
> > Any thoughts on what would cause such a large deviation from 10 Mhz ?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for any replies,
> >
> >
> > 73, Dick, W1KSZ
> >
> >
> > Sent from Outlook
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

My guess would be that they are not in a mode that allows them to lock. Some
GPSDO’s require a “start” command. Others hold off locking until a site survey
is complete ( or they have verified the last survey is correct ).

Bob

> On May 23, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Richard Solomon  wrote:
> 
> I have had two of these sitting on the shelf for years. Today I decided to 
> see if they work.
> 
> It's a slow week !!
> 
> 
> I hooked them up to my external GPS Antenna through my Symmetricon Splitter 
> and
> 
> looked at the 10 MHz output on my HP 5334B (reference input derived from a 
> Trimble
> 
> T-Bolt).
> 
> 
> They both show a number of Satellites, but one reads 4.7 Hz low while the 
> other reads
> 
> 1.3 Hz low. I expected better.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on what would cause such a large deviation from 10 Mhz ?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any replies,
> 
> 
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
> 
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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[time-nuts] TrueTime XL-AK Issues

[Richard Solomon]

I have had two of these sitting on the shelf for years. Today I decided to see 
if they work.

It's a slow week !!


I hooked them up to my external GPS Antenna through my Symmetricon Splitter and

looked at the 10 MHz output on my HP 5334B (reference input derived from a 
Trimble

T-Bolt).


They both show a number of Satellites, but one reads 4.7 Hz low while the other 
reads

1.3 Hz low. I expected better.


Any thoughts on what would cause such a large deviation from 10 Mhz ?


Thanks for any replies,


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Luciano:

I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
(Saunders 150)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & Test Equipment 
(see Trivia below)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal Activity Meters
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit
http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used in commercial crystal test sets like the HP 
E4915, E4916, E5100.


Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance 
which is in the meg Ohms range.  Some of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an equivalent 
crystal equivalent circuit.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 

Hi all,
I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
Boonton.
I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
documentation.
I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
can share it with me.
Look at the picture thanks
Luciano


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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Gizmo’s like that were very common in the days before network analyzers became 
good enough to measure a crystal. They always were a troublesome item to keep 
running accurately. Without accuracy, their value was a bit limited. Every 
place I 
know of had a big drawer ( or cabinet ) of “magic crystals”. You plugged them in
and adjusted the instrument until they all read as they should. One could easily
challenge this in terms of accuracy. It did ensure that all the meters in the 
plant 
had some chance of reading the outgoing product the same way. 

So - you don’t just need the manual, you also need the batch of calibration 
crystals
(and their data) that went with it. Then you can duplicate the readings from 
whatever 
factory used it ….

Lots of fun !!!

Bob

> On May 23, 2018, at 4:44 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hi all,
>   I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
> Boonton.
>   I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
> documentation.
>   I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
>   I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
> can share it with me.
>   Look at the picture thanks
>   Luciano
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