Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for Mains Power Monitor / Logger

[Andy Backus]

Thank you, Bill.  Your comments on noise I find interesting.


I have tracked the TE of the Western Interconnection for 2-1/2 years now.  For 
reliability's sake I use three separate systems that count in different ways.  
Transients are my biggest problem.  I use low pass filters and optical links 
and clipping zeners.  I blank out counter input for most of the 16.67 msec 
between counts.  Still, I lose count on one or another of the systems every 
once in a while.  There is a lot of junk on the grid.


Andy Backus

Bellingham, WA



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Bill Hawkins 
<bill.i...@pobox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 11:40 PM
To: 'Bob Albert'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'; 
'Patrick Murphy'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for Mains Power Monitor / Logger

Well, this synchronization follows the laws of physics. If the energy
generated doesn't equal the energy consumed, then the frequency may
raise or lower. This is for steam turbines. If the energy come front an
inverter from a DC tie line, as it does from the four regions in the US,
the frequency is anything it wants to be. Well not quite. Raising the
inverter frequency a hair causes the tie line to be the major source of
energy. One could track the use of energy by frequency to make
investment decisions in manufacturer's stocks.

The problem with zero crossing triggers is the amount of noise caused by
solid state power supplies and by tap changing by the power companies to
match loads to minimize transmission losses. I've considered using a
mechanical synchronous motor and slotted wheel to eliminate noise near
the zero crossing, but now that I am 80, I don't give a darn, you see.

Bill Hawkins


 -Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Albert via time-nuts
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 5:58 PM

 There isn't a whole lot of justification for measuring power line
frequency.  We are all synchronized (in the first world at least) and
while there are phase instabilities, it's seldom the frequency varies
enough to overcome the noise.
As for voltage, it's much more steady than several years ago.  Most
people have 122 Volts, give or take a couple.  Again, not a whole lot of
purpose in recording it.
The distortion is another story.  It's never quite sinusoidal but there
is also some random noise picked up between the generators and the
load.  Looking at the 'scope it's seldom it looks like the textbook
picture of a sine wave.  Chances are most distortion is odd harmonic.
Distortion probably mostly comes from loads which are not resistive,
such as switching power supplies, rectifiers, fluorescent lamps, and
such.  These loads draw currents that are not sinusoids and so cause
voltage drops that are also of that character.
Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Andy Backus]

Please forgive that I am a lurker and have not contributed.


But this last thread caught my eye since I monitor the time error for the 
Western Grid here in the US.


Over the last year the usual variation is very much the same as in David's 
graph for 2017 -- i.e., +/- 30 seconds.  The power folks worldwide must all 
read the same journals.


There was a time, before October, 2015, that the TE here was kept to +/- 10 sec 
(and years before that even closer).  Maintaining tight TE, however, threatens 
the stability of load/source balancing.  And there are fewer and fewer 
synchronous clocks in use.


If anyone is interested I have data (every minute) for the last two years.


Andy Backus

Bellingham, WA



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of David G. McGaw 
<david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:01 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC


On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
> for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D=0
>
> This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
> cycle using NTP for reference.
>
> Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.
>
> Regards,
>Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
>> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
>> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>>
>> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
>> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Detlef Schücker
>> DD4WV
>>
>> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>>
>> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>>
>>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
>>> An: time-nuts@febo.com
>>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
>>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
>>>> Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
>>> future discussions...
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D=0
>>> album-72157662535945536/
>>>   >
>>>
>>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
>> 4Vpp.
>>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
>>> middle of the night after all.
>>> They have to catch up.
>>>
>>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
>>> weekend
>>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
>>>
>>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
>>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
>>> so I can enforce
>>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
>>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
>>>
>>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
>>> the 89441A.
>>> One of the mixer/preamp