Re: [time-nuts] X72 and 1pps
Hi Mark, thanks for your reply. Try enabling the PPS input form the "P menu. I can´t find this option - I can toggle the PPS output, but not the input. BTW, what´s the "set TIC" option? I can enter a number here, but I can´t find something about this command in the manual... Auto-Tune seems to work well - I see the plot stepping and a slope is calculated. What´s the expected behaviour if I go to d-e: "Enable HW discipline" ? I can´t see any changes here. I checked the SA.22.C manual as well, but this contains more or less the same information as the X72. Regards, Matthias Also, to verify that it is using the PPS input try the auto-tune command. It will set the TIC and DDS tune word to to 0, collect data for for however long you requested (an hour is a good start), then calculate the drift rate and set the DDS tune word to put the device on frequency. The EE command should set save the DDS word in EEPROM.If the unit is seeing the PPS input, you should see the PPS plot stepping as the DDS freq drifts. Many of the X72 settings cannot be read back from the unit. Heather maintains a "software eeprom" with the settings that it knows about in the file "tbeeprom.dat". Until you update a setting, what is displayed for that setting may not be correct. Use the "P" menu to set each of the settings so that Heather can learn what they are. When Heather starts up, it restores all the last settings from the file. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] X72 and 1pps
Hello Time-Nuts, thanks to Mark´s breakout board I was able to fire up my X72 rubidium. It seems to work fine. FW is 5.19. As far as I understand from the (rather crappy) manual, I should be able to discipline it to 1pps, but I wasn´t lucky using the commands from the manual. I switched to Lady Heather. It looks like I get TIC results from the X72 - The mode is reported as "Free running", so I guess this is the difference between the incoming PPS and the local one. So far so good, but if I try to enable HW disciplining, nothing happens. Also strange, "PPS IN" is reported as "OFF"... Did anyone on this list sucessfully discipline the X72 to external PPS? Or has a manual that fits better to the 5.19 FW? Or can shine some light on how the X72 1PPS feature is supposed to work? Any hints are highly appreciated. Thanks & regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Stable32 now available
Dear Time-Nuts, Happy New Year! Maybe this is of interest for some of you: A copy of Stable32 was on my wish-list for Christmas and I asked for the possibility of a non-profit-license. Bill Riley informed me that he donated Stable32 to IEEE UFFC and it will be available for free download with the beginning of 2018. And here it is: https://ieee-uffc.org/frequency-control/frequency-control-software/stable-32/ Many thanks to Bill Riley! Best regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] LPFRS phase ripple: success!
Hello Time-Nuts, I opened the LPFRS and removed the 4 electrolytic caps. One was completely dead. After I swapped them to new ones, everything worked fine. The phase ripple disappeared, the unit is now on par with the second one (or beyond my measurement capabilities...). So, I highly recommend this to every owner of a used LPFRS - it takes about 10 minutes. Thanks again for all the hints and have a nice weekend, Matthias Am 25.05.2017 um 12:46 schrieb Bob kb8tq: Hi On May 25, 2017, at 4:12 AM, Matthias Jelen <matthias.je...@gmx.de> wrote: Hi Angus, thanks for the hint. I read through this fairly long thread - the baseline seems to be: Replace the caps. Best regards, Matthias That’s what worked for mine ….. (at least most of them). In my case they arrived dead. Bob Am 23.05.2017 um 21:44 schrieb Angus: Hi, If you've not already looked, it would be worth checking on the EEVblog since there were some discussions there on faults in these units - particularly the capacitor and lamp voltage issues. One of the temperature controllers could be a little unstable too. Angus. On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:40:26 +0200, you wrote: Hello Time-Nuts, i´ve been playing with some Rbs recently. I compared two LPFRS-01 to a PRS-10. One seems to behave quite well (compared to the specs given here: http://www.spectratime.com/uploads/documents/isource/iSource_LPFRS%20Spec.pdf) - short term stability specs are met), the other one shows quite some phase ripple (appx. 1 ns RMS with a frequency around 0.007 Hz) which spoils ADEV in the 60 - 200s range, very similiar to the typical GPSDO bump. Long term stabilty is OK. Unfortunatly I didn´t find any schematics on the web. Has anyone encountered a similiar problem with this unit? Any idea were this might come from? My first guess would be a problem in the control loop locking the VCXO to the Rb, but I have no clue which time constants are used in the PLL. Any hints are appreciated. Regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LPFRS phase ripple?
Hi Tim, yes, both units on my workbench, same setup, same power supply. I´ll exchange the caps. I wonder why they made efforts to design a physics package with 20 years lifetime, just to put wet electrolytic caps into such a hot environment. Regards, Matthias Am 25.05.2017 um 13:27 schrieb Tim Shoppa: Matthias, are the units all over in the same thermal environment when you test them? A period of 150s or so in a wobble sounds like a not perfectly damped thermal cycle time of a lightweight oven or lamp. Reminds me a little of the unit to unit variation in HP Wien Bridge oscillator amplitude stability (also a lamp!) Tim N3QE On May 23, 2017, at 3:40 AM, Matthias Jelen <matthias.je...@gmx.de> wrote: Hello Time-Nuts, i´ve been playing with some Rbs recently. I compared two LPFRS-01 to a PRS-10. One seems to behave quite well (compared to the specs given here: http://www.spectratime.com/uploads/documents/isource/iSource_LPFRS%20Spec.pdf) - short term stability specs are met), the other one shows quite some phase ripple (appx. 1 ns RMS with a frequency around 0.007 Hz) which spoils ADEV in the 60 - 200s range, very similiar to the typical GPSDO bump. Long term stabilty is OK. Unfortunatly I didn´t find any schematics on the web. Has anyone encountered a similiar problem with this unit? Any idea were this might come from? My first guess would be a problem in the control loop locking the VCXO to the Rb, but I have no clue which time constants are used in the PLL. Any hints are appreciated. Regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LPFRS phase ripple?
Hi Angus, thanks for the hint. I read through this fairly long thread - the baseline seems to be: Replace the caps. Best regards, Matthias Am 23.05.2017 um 21:44 schrieb Angus: Hi, If you've not already looked, it would be worth checking on the EEVblog since there were some discussions there on faults in these units - particularly the capacitor and lamp voltage issues. One of the temperature controllers could be a little unstable too. Angus. On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:40:26 +0200, you wrote: Hello Time-Nuts, i´ve been playing with some Rbs recently. I compared two LPFRS-01 to a PRS-10. One seems to behave quite well (compared to the specs given here: http://www.spectratime.com/uploads/documents/isource/iSource_LPFRS%20Spec.pdf) - short term stability specs are met), the other one shows quite some phase ripple (appx. 1 ns RMS with a frequency around 0.007 Hz) which spoils ADEV in the 60 - 200s range, very similiar to the typical GPSDO bump. Long term stabilty is OK. Unfortunatly I didn´t find any schematics on the web. Has anyone encountered a similiar problem with this unit? Any idea were this might come from? My first guess would be a problem in the control loop locking the VCXO to the Rb, but I have no clue which time constants are used in the PLL. Any hints are appreciated. Regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] LPFRS phase ripple?
Hello Time-Nuts, i´ve been playing with some Rbs recently. I compared two LPFRS-01 to a PRS-10. One seems to behave quite well (compared to the specs given here: http://www.spectratime.com/uploads/documents/isource/iSource_LPFRS%20Spec.pdf) - short term stability specs are met), the other one shows quite some phase ripple (appx. 1 ns RMS with a frequency around 0.007 Hz) which spoils ADEV in the 60 - 200s range, very similiar to the typical GPSDO bump. Long term stabilty is OK. Unfortunatly I didn´t find any schematics on the web. Has anyone encountered a similiar problem with this unit? Any idea were this might come from? My first guess would be a problem in the control loop locking the VCXO to the Rb, but I have no clue which time constants are used in the PLL. Any hints are appreciated. Regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Knights OCXO: Now in plain text...
Hi Mike, very good, thanks! That helps a lot... Best regards, Matthias Gesendet: Donnerstag, 08. Dezember 2016 um 14:01 Uhr Von: "Mike Cook" <michael.c...@sfr.fr> An: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Knights OCXO: Now in plain text... > Le 8 déc. 2016 à 10:40, Matthias Jelen <matthias.je...@gmx.de> a écrit : > > Hello! > > 3rd try, I was using a webmailer which changed it defaults to html. Thanks > for the hint Mike! > > I got an OCXO from a piece of scrapped Agilent equipment. > > The OCXO has a label on it saying: > > CTS KNIGHTS > 970-2123-2 > 10.000 MHz > 08924-61037 > I found a ref that the 08924-61037 is a HP part number and googling the two found Pin 1 B+ 12.65V IN Pin 2 GND Pin 3 Oven +10-12V +- Pin 5 OSC Disable SMB RF out There is NO pin 4 . work that out. Perf 10MHz 2x10-9/day The URL is < http://www.mykit.com/kor/products/std/std_k2.html > > The OCXO has four wires and an RF-Connector, so RF OUT and GND are easy to > spot. > > If find a lot of those on ebay, but no info on the pinout, supply voltage (or > performance...). > > If anyone knows something about this part, I´d be gratefull. > > Best regards, > > Matthias > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts[https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts] > and follow the instructions there. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. » George Bernard Shaw ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts[https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Knights OCXO: Now in plain text...
Hello! 3rd try, I was using a webmailer which changed it defaults to html. Thanks for the hint Mike! I got an OCXO from a piece of scrapped Agilent equipment. The OCXO has a label on it saying: CTS KNIGHTS 970-2123-2 10.000 MHz 08924-61037 The OCXO has four wires and an RF-Connector, so RF OUT and GND are easy to spot. If find a lot of those on ebay, but no info on the pinout, supply voltage (or performance...). If anyone knows something about this part, I´d be gratefull. Best regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 2nd try: Info on Knights OCXO
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[time-nuts] Info on KNIGHTS OCXO?
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Re: [time-nuts] 82357b and TimeLab?
Hello John, thanks, that did the trick - it´s working flawless now! Regards, Matthias, DK4YJ Am 28.06.2016 um 00:32 schrieb John Miles: But TimeLab doesn´t list any GPIB interfaces. Did anyone have success with this combination? Any insights highly appreciated... Agilent's NI488.2 compatibility layer seems to work only with 32-bit apps, not 64-bit ones, so you may be able to get it running by modifying your Windows shortcut to run timelab.exe instead of timelab64.exe. The 64-bit version of TimeLab isn't usually needed when working with standard TICs and frequency counters. -- john, KE5FX Miles Design LLC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 82357b and TimeLab?
Hello Time-Nuts, I got an Agilent 82357b USB <-> IEC-Bus adaptor at a ham fest. Now I´m trying to get it to work with TimeLab. I Installed some hundred MB of Keysight software and followed the recipes I found in the web to get the 82357b working with 488.2 applications - basically checking "Enable Keysight GPIB cards for 488 programms" in the Keysight Connection Expert Software. After doing so, the connected devices show up in the "NI Measurement and Automation Explorer", so I guess it´s working to a certain level. But TimeLab doesn´t list any GPIB interfaces. Did anyone have success with this combination? Any insights highly appreciated... Best regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5370A Trigger
Hello Time-Nuts, once again a question to the 5370 experts: After some time of operation (hours...) my 5370A starts to become noisy. This can be seen best when teeing the 10 MHz REF OUT to IN A nnd IN B, choosing TI and setting STD DEV, 1k samples. When everything works well, the displayed value is around 10 .. 14 ps. After some time, this values starts to rise slowly and might grow up to several ns. The effect seems to be temperature related, with the lid removed it takes longer until the unit starts to fail. I used quite some cooling spray, and the front panel board seems to be somewhat sensible, but I couldn´t find a part which, when cooled, returned the display to the initial values. Cooling the whole frontpanel with an external blower also helps. Then I noticed that I am able to bring back the display back to a few picoseconds by switching arbitrary around with the trigger slope switches - both channels seem to have an influence. After flipping them forth and back several times, everything is OK again. I couldn´t find any systematic behaviour behind this. Did anyone experience something similar? (and maybe even found a cure?) Any hints will be highly appreciated... Best regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The Symmetricom GPS Antenna's
Hello Time-Nuts, thanks for that hint. Anyone in Europe / Germany interested? I´d be interested in buying some of those - I´d be willing to organize a centralised buying, pick them up at the customs and forward them (if the number stays reasonable :-) Please send me a private message if interested. Have a nice weekend, Matthias Am 02.10.2015 um 19:36 schrieb Roy Phillips: For we Europeans, British in my case, the Symmetricom GPS antennas are very good buy – but the addition of US $60.00 for the shipping makes them rather expensive ! – plus taxes .. Roy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] ADEV measurement question
Tom, thanks for sharing this! This was exactly what I was looking for. Regards, Matthias Am 23.08.2015 um 19:19 schrieb Tom Van Baak: To learn more, I think the best way would be to put the counter into its fast binary mode and acquire 1k time interval samples per second. That would give me loads of data to play with and it would be easy to try out how different averaging schemes affect the result. Matthias, See: http://leapsecond.com/pages/adev-avg/ for the results of a similar ADEV averaging experiment. I can send you the raw data if you want. What helped me understand the issue was to think in terms of frequency *in*stability instead of frequency stability. We often use the words interchangeably. But imagine that your goal is to measure oscillator noise, its instability, not its stability. With this new mental image the last thing you would do is average. By its very nature, averaging removes highs and lows and smoothes things out. If your goal is to measure instability, averaging removes the very thing you're trying to measure. The plots in the above web page show this dramatically. You can make an oscillator as good as you want if you average enough. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 EFC Error
Hi Gerhard, many thanks for sharing this. I replaced the OCXO in my REF-1, and now it´s working again. Nice to see that I still can use the old OCXO with negative tuning voltage. Regards, Matthias, DK4YJ Am 12.08.2015 um 19:13 schrieb Dave M: I have verified with MTI that the recommended tuning voltage for model 260-0624-C is 0 to 6V. The datasheet range of -10V to +10V is the available range of EFC for the entire 260 series, and may or may not apply to any specific model within the 260 series. I have measured the tuning behaviour of some MTI and Morion VCXOs. The witeup is at: http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/VCXO_tuning.pdf For the MTIs, the interesting range is indeed 0 to 6V, but they seem to work without surprises in the +/- 10V range. So if your op amp delivers a bit more or if you think you could use +/- a few extra Hz against ageing: that seems ok. 73, Gerhard, DK4XP ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] ADEV measurement question
Dear John Magnus, thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I realize that the averaging topic is much more complex than I thought - it certainly gives me something to think about :-) I never thought in terms of noise bandwith in this application, thanks for putting me on this track. It seems that the simplest and safest way to get meaningfull results is to hook up two mixers and a hand full of opamps and comparators. To learn more, I think the best way would be to put the counter into its fast binary mode and acquire 1k time interval samples per second. That would give me loads of data to play with and it would be easy to try out how different averaging schemes affect the result. I´ll have to read and think some more :-) Cheers, Matthias Am 19.08.2015 um 21:52 schrieb Magnus Danielson: Dear Mathias, On 08/19/2015 06:40 PM, Matthias Jelen wrote: Hello, I´ve got a question concerning ADEV-measurements. I´m measuring the 15 MHz output of a KS-24361 with my SR-620 with it´s internal (Wenzel) OCXO using Timelab. For the first shot I used the counters frequency mode with 1s gatetime. ADEV at tau=1s turned out to be arounf 2E-11, which fits the 20 ps single shot resolution of the SR-620 nicely. To overcome this limitation without setting up a DMTD system, I used the counter as TIC, feeding 1 kHz (derived from the counter´s reference) to the start channel, the 15 MHz to the stop channel and put the counter into average mode / 1k samples. This gives me one averaged result per second. The idea was that this shouldn´t change the measurement itself, because like in frequency mode with 1s gate time I get the averaged value over one second, but I expected trigger noise etc. to be averaged out to a certain amount. I have to watch out for phase wraps, but as the two frequencys are quite equal, this is not a big issue here. As expected, ADEV at tau=1s got much better, it is now in the 4E-12 area, which sound reasonable. What makes me wonder is the fact that result are significantly better now at longer taus (10..100s) also, despite of the fact that also in frequency mode these result were well aboce the noise floor (2E-12 @ 10s and so on...). So, is it a good idea to use this kind of averaging, or am I overlooking something which turns the numbers better than they really are? I´m pretty sure I am not the first one to try this... I´m looking forward to your comments. OK, averaging or filtering of data before ADEV processing is tricky, as it filters the data. Whenever you do that, you actually convert your measurement from an ADEV measure to something else. If you do proper post-processing, this something else can have known properties and thus we can relate the amplitude of the curve to amplitude of various noise sources, as it will cause biasing from the ADEV properties. The reason you get better results is because the ADEV response on white noise depends on the measurement system bandwidth (see Allan deviation wikipedia page), and by averaging you do reduce the bandwidth. Sometimes when you do this, you loose the gain as you increase the tau, since the dominant frequency will lower and become more and more into the pass-band of the fixed bandwidth filter you created. What you see is that it flattens out to the length of the average before lowering down, as if there was no filtering, so you have only achieved a gain in skewed value for very short taus, but then no gain at all for longer taus, so no real gain. This was realized in 1980-1981 and in 1981 an article was published in which they realized that they can change the bandwidth along-side the change of tau, so that the gain remains. This became the modified Allan deviation (MDEV), and was inspired by the methods for improving frequency measures for lasers as presented by J.J. Snyder in 1980 and 1981. J.J. Snyder was doing what you proposes, averaging of blocks, and then extended this in software, and this became a direct inspiration for the MDEV development, which does a pre-averaging over tau before processing through ADEV, and this combined is the MDEV. Doing TIC averaging and then continue the processing with MDEV processing should produce a proper MDEV curve, unless my tired brain does not miss out on details. If you then analyze it as a MDEV (rather than ADEV) then you use the values properly. MDEV have the benefit that white phase noise drops by tau^-1.5 rather than the ADEV tau^-1, and starting with the SR-620 means you for fairly low taus hit actual measurement noise. The averaging makes this trip from tau0 of 1 ms in your setup. So, you can go down this route, but you need to be careful to ensure that you have done the processing correctly enough that you get the results that can be interpreted properly. Oh, as you average, phase-unwrapping becomes interesting. :) Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts
[time-nuts] ADEV measurement question
Hello, I´ve got a question concerning ADEV-measurements. I´m measuring the 15 MHz output of a KS-24361 with my SR-620 with it´s internal (Wenzel) OCXO using Timelab. For the first shot I used the counters frequency mode with 1s gatetime. ADEV at tau=1s turned out to be arounf 2E-11, which fits the 20 ps single shot resolution of the SR-620 nicely. To overcome this limitation without setting up a DMTD system, I used the counter as TIC, feeding 1 kHz (derived from the counter´s reference) to the start channel, the 15 MHz to the stop channel and put the counter into average mode / 1k samples. This gives me one averaged result per second. The idea was that this shouldn´t change the measurement itself, because like in frequency mode with 1s gate time I get the averaged value over one second, but I expected trigger noise etc. to be averaged out to a certain amount. I have to watch out for phase wraps, but as the two frequencys are quite equal, this is not a big issue here. As expected, ADEV at tau=1s got much better, it is now in the 4E-12 area, which sound reasonable. What makes me wonder is the fact that result are significantly better now at longer taus (10..100s) also, despite of the fact that also in frequency mode these result were well aboce the noise floor (2E-12 @ 10s and so on...). So, is it a good idea to use this kind of averaging, or am I overlooking something which turns the numbers better than they really are? I´m pretty sure I am not the first one to try this... I´m looking forward to your comments. Best regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] KS-24361 EFC Error
Hello Time-Nuts, I have a RFTG-U REF-0 / REF-1 pair here which seems to have a problem. The error LED of the REF-1 box stays on forever, and Ulrichs SW reports an EFC Error. After OCXO warmup, the EFC goes doen to it´s lower rail (-100 %) and stays there forever. Indeed the 5 MHz Output from the OCXO is abt. 2 Hz of (compared to the 10 MHz Output of the REF-0 which works OK). Tuning voltage to the OCXO is 0V. During power up, the tuning voltage is abt. 3.1 V and the OCXO is abt 4 Hz to low. During this time, the DIAG:OSC.EFC:REL? gives me something like 3.085 E+000 - so I guess this is abt. 3% of the tuning voltage. Reference voltage output from the OCXO itself is abt. 6.1 V. From that I conclude that the tuning voltage range is from 0 to + 6 Volts. When the tuning voltage drops from 3 V to 0 V, frequency goes up, but not high enough -2 Hz offset from 5 MHz remain. This makes me think that the OCXO has a problem and is not reaching the 5 MHz within it´s tuning range. Bevor I heat up the big soldering iron to remove the OCXO, I wanted to ask if anybody else experienced this before and if anybody can confirm that tuning voltage range is indeed 0..6 Volt. If so, replacing the OCXO should cure the problem. Regards, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt issue found
Chris, did you allready get your photos? If not, I can open up mine tonight and see if I can make some shots under the microscope... 73, Matthias, DK4YJ Hi Everyone, Thanks for the suggestions this past weekend for helping get my new Thunderbolt fixed. I got back into town last night late so couldn't tackle it until tonight. I put a DMM on the F connector and I didn't have 5V on it. Opening up the case, I found the top blown off one of the SOT package transistors. It's the one closest to U19 and is connected to this chip's pin 14. I have the Thunderbolt with the three separate input voltages (5, -12,12). Does someone have a board they can look at and let me know the code on the transistor so I can see about a replacement? Maybe even a closeup shot of the 5 SOT packaged devices in that area as I may find another is bad. Thank you in advance. Chris KD4PBJ — Sent from Mailbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Bob, I also grabbed some of the KS-24361 pairs and retrieved a lot of information from the mailng list archive. If you have more results from the reverse engineering which was already done, I´d also be very interested. Thanks, Matthias Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva time-n...@tardis.net.br wrote: Thanks. I have some Motorola Oncore available. Can you detail this fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines? Regards, Edésio On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva time-n...@tardis.net.br wrote: Hello Fellows! Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. Regards, Edésio ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370a
The problem is that the whole VCO is packaged. The connections from the VCO to the outside world are fairly simple: -5,2 Volt, a bias for the buffer amplifier, the tuning voltage and the start/stop line. The start/stop line is tied to gnd with 2.2 µH, so even if the start/stop circuit woud fail I can´t see how the oscillator could be kept from oscillating permanently. Anyone successfullly opened such a package (without damaging it permanently?) Regards, Matthias Am 05.07.2015 um 07:54 schrieb Bruce Griffiths: On Saturday, July 04, 2015 05:20:45 PM paul swed wrote: Matthias I am afraid I am not much help here. I did look at the a19/20 interpolators. A lot going on in that small space. I guess i would check the 200 MHz feeding into it. The VCO is fairly simple in using a gate and a delay line. I will guess the delay line is coax.. No its microstrip within the VCO package. Other coax delays are used in the oscillator turnoff and mixer logic. But there are all kinds of gates to control the system and Flip Flop used as a mixer. Not easy to deal with. Regards Paul. On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Matthias Jelen matthias.je...@gmx.de wrote: Dear Time-Nuts, I´m still struggling to get my 5370A to work reliable again. It keeps showing error 04. Sometimes it is working without any problems for hours, sometimes it ´s a matter of minutes until the error is displayed, and sometimes I doesn ´t come up without the error at all. I don´t think it´s related to temperarure, the usual procedures with a hairdryer and cooling spray didn´t show any effects. I dug into this a bit. It seems like the startable VCO on one of the interpolator boards isn´t working reliable anymore. The error stays with the board, no matter if I put it into the slot for the start channel or the stop channel. If the unit is in the non-working-state, there is no RF at the output of the VCO. As soon the VCO oscilates, the PLL locks and everything works fine, only the tuning voltage is a bit outside the range given in the service manual. If the VCO stops oscillating, the tuning voltage runs to it´s lower rail, just as expected. I opened the PLL loop and tuned the VCO with a external power supply, this works as expected - no regions in the tuning range in which the oscillator stops working or similiar. I checked the signals going to the board, and they all look OK. I fooled the logic that detects a tuning voltage outside the allowed area, and as expected, the error 04 isn´t displayed anymore, but also as expected the unit still stops working. I pulled the board, removed some components and supplied power to the VCO from an external power supply - same behaviour here. So I came to the conclusion that the VCO itself is defective, although I have no idea what could cause a VCO to behave that way. Now for the strange part: A noble member of this list sent me a spare interpolator board which was pulled from a working unit. This shows exactly the same behaviour! Also at this board the tuning voltage is outside the given window, and the oscillator doesn´t start from time to time. If a dead VCO module is a common problem, I´d expect that someone on this list also experienced this problem before. Otherwise, I think it´s unlikely that I found two defective interpolator boards in a row. I stil have the feeling that I´m overlooking something simple. So `d be happy to receive any comments on this. Also, if someone wants to get rid of a 5370 that needs repair I might be interested. I guess this is what you can expect if your´re using test equipment which was introduced before you were born, but it´s part of the fun... Thanks, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 5370a
Dear Time-Nuts, I´m still struggling to get my 5370A to work reliable again. It keeps showing error 04. Sometimes it is working without any problems for hours, sometimes it´s a matter of minutes until the error is displayed, and sometimes I doesn´t come up without the error at all. I don´t think it´s related to temperarure, the usual procedures with a hairdryer and cooling spray didn´t show any effects. I dug into this a bit. It seems like the startable VCO on one of the interpolator boards isn´t working reliable anymore. The error stays with the board, no matter if I put it into the slot for the start channel or the stop channel. If the unit is in the non-working-state, there is no RF at the output of the VCO. As soon the VCO oscilates, the PLL locks and everything works fine, only the tuning voltage is a bit outside the range given in the service manual. If the VCO stops oscillating, the tuning voltage runs to it´s lower rail, just as expected. I opened the PLL loop and tuned the VCO with a external power supply, this works as expected - no regions in the tuning range in which the oscillator stops working or similiar. I checked the signals going to the board, and they all look OK. I fooled the logic that detects a tuning voltage outside the allowed area, and as expected, the error 04 isn´t displayed anymore, but also as expected the unit still stops working. I pulled the board, removed some components and supplied power to the VCO from an external power supply - same behaviour here. So I came to the conclusion that the VCO itself is defective, although I have no idea what could cause a VCO to behave that way. Now for the strange part: A noble member of this list sent me a spare interpolator board which was pulled from a working unit. This shows exactly the same behaviour! Also at this board the tuning voltage is outside the given window, and the oscillator doesn´t start from time to time. If a dead VCO module is a common problem, I´d expect that someone on this list also experienced this problem before. Otherwise, I think it´s unlikely that I found two defective interpolator boards in a row. I stil have the feeling that I´m overlooking something simple. So `d be happy to receive any comments on this. Also, if someone wants to get rid of a 5370 that needs repair I might be interested. I guess this is what you can expect if your´re using test equipment which was introduced before you were born, but it´s part of the fun... Thanks, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] SR-620 noise floor question
Dear Time-Nuts, I played around with my SR-620 counter and TimeLab and got strange ADEV curves, so I started to investigate a bit. The SR-620 is equipped with Option 1, the high performance Wenzel OCXO - specified with 5E-12 at tau = 1s. I tried to evaluate the counters noisefloor. I fed 10 MHz signal to the start channel and, via a BNC Tee, the same signal to the stop channel. A 1 pps pulse does the arming once a second. I tried 3 diffferent combinations - please see the attached TimeLab plot: 1. 10 MHz from a Trimble TB to start and stop, reference internal (blue line) 2. 10 MHz from the counters REF OUT to start and stop, reference internal (pink line) 3. 10 MHz from Trimble TB to REF IN, start and stop, reference external (green line) All clocks should be abt. one magnitude better than the noise floor which I would expect from a TIC with 25 ps resolution, so I wouldn´t expect any difference between those 3 curves, but only the measurement in which the internal OCXO was not used shows the expected performance with abt. 2E-12 at 1 second. The measurement which used only the internal clock was abt. one magnitude worse, and the adev curve shows some ripple in the 8 to 40 seconds range. I had a look at the ref out with a spectrum analyzer, but the smallest resolution bandwith I have available at home is 6 Hz - no spurs noticeable in that region. Is it reasonable to argue that the oven is out of spec? Did anyone on the list encounter a similiar effect with a SR-620 before? Or am I simply overlooking something? Thanks a lot for any comments and have a nice weekend, Matthias ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5370 Error 04
Hello John, thanks for that information. Unfortunately, my fan is working. Opening the lid and putting an extra blower to cool the VCO helps to extend the time until he error occurs... Regards, Matthias Hello Matthias - I had this problem on my 5370B - it turned out that the fan wasn't running, which resulted in overheating. I hope this helps. Regards, John K1AE -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Matthias Jelen Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 9:28 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com; dk...@gmx.de Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370 Error 04 Hello! I´ve got a question to the 5370 experts on the list. I just received my new (old...) HP5370a. It performed fine for abt. one hour, then it started to display error 04 which means PLL out of lock. A look in the service manual revealed that there are several reasons for this. I checked the VCO voltage on both interpolator cards, and indeed, one of them is out of the specified -6V..-3V, it runs to the rail (-12V). Even if the error is not there, the voltage is at abt. -7 V, so I guess it´s just on the edge. The other card is fine. Normally, I´d try the alignment procedure, but I´m missing the exotic HP pulse generator used for the alignment and I have no clue how I could easily substitute this one. Did anyone encounter this problem before? Is there a cure for this problem known to the experts? Any hints are highly appreciated... Thanks a lot, Matthias, DK4YJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP5370 Error 04
Hello! I´ve got a question to the 5370 experts on the list. I just received my new (old...) HP5370a. It performed fine for abt. one hour, then it started to display error 04 which means PLL out of lock. A look in the service manual revealed that there are several reasons for this. I checked the VCO voltage on both interpolator cards, and indeed, one of them is out of the specified -6V..-3V, it runs to the rail (-12V). Even if the error is not there, the voltage is at abt. -7 V, so I guess it´s just on the edge. The other card is fine. Normally, I´d try the alignment procedure, but I´m missing the exotic HP pulse generator used for the alignment and I have no clue how I could easily substitute this one. Did anyone encounter this problem before? Is there a cure for this problem known to the experts? Any hints are highly appreciated... Thanks a lot, Matthias, DK4YJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS week rollover
Hi Pete, I didn´t test the transition - I just entered a few dates well after the rollover. After locking, the phase of the 10 MHz output was stable against the phase of the 10 MHz REF out of the signal generator I used for testing, which was what I expected. The 1 PPS looked reasonable. I´m not aware of a way to set a date manually for the Tbolt. I have to admit that I use the thunderbolt different from many other list members: I switch it on from time to time to check the OCXO which I use as a common reference for my counter, spectrum analyzer, some generators etc. against it. If the frequency error is in the range of 1e-9, this is more than sufficient for me. So the output of date and time is a nice to have feature, but not really important for me. Anyway, if there´s something you´d like me to test with the simulator, just let me know. Best regards, Matthias Am 06.05.2015 um 16:39 schrieb Pete Stephenson: On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Tom Van Baakt...@leapsecond.com wrote: Hi Pete, Hi Tom, Yes, we are very fortunate that a fellow time-nut took the time to test a TBolt with a GPS simulator: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-September/086664.html That's the link I included in my message. :) I'm quite grateful for Matthias's work with the GPS simulator, but I was unclear about a few details. For example, he doesn't mention if tested the Tbolt as it transitioned over the overflow point itself (to tell if the Tbolt will maintain continuity and keep working as expected) or if he tested it by setting the date on the simulator to dates before and after the overflow point. Similarly, it's unclear if manually priming the Tbolt with the current date/time will allow it to determine the correct epoch or if it will simply use the 1997-2017 epoch baked into the firmware regardless of user input. He also reported that the 1 PPS and the 10 MHz were undisturbed by the rollover. Yes, the date/time gets set back but Mark Sims updated Lady Heather to compensate. So as far as we know, all is well with that GPSDO in 2017 and 2019 and beyond. Excellent, particularly regarding 1 PPS and 10 MHz outputs. It'd be nice if the unit itself would output the correct date rather than needing to rely on external software to interpret and correct the output. Note also that the TBolt handles rollover in a deterministic way and thus lends itself to epoch correction (since it's based on GPS time). Excellent. The problem with the TymServe is that, unless they release the source code for the broken algorithm, its handling of epochs is not deterministic (since it's based on the count of leap seconds and can hop forward or back 1024 weeks without warning). Ouch. No fun at all. Hopefully more modern receivers are more clueful about handling rollovers. At minimum, they should accept user input telling them what the current epoch is. Cheers! -Pete - Original Message - From: Pete Stephensonp...@heypete.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 5:19 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS week rollover On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 6:48 AM, Mark Simshol...@hotmail.com wrote: Well, a big one will be in 2017 when all our Tbolts roll over.I have included some code in the next version of Lady Heather to compensate. If it detects a year from the unit before 2015, it converts the date/time to Julian, adds 1024 weeks worth of seconds, and then converts the date/time back to Gregorian. You can also specify a user defined rollover adjustment (in seconds). One issue that I have seen is the Tbolt occasionally spitting out a bogo-year and triggering a false/premature rollover... still trying to track that down. People using Tbolts for things like NTP servers will have to implement a similar fix... I assume the Tbolt rollover will be problematic for those who start their Tbolt completely cold (no time, almanac, or ephemeris) and without any non-GPS input, but how will the Tbolt behave in situations where the user initializes the Tbolt with the then-correct post-rollover date and time? For example, one might use Tboltmon and a wristwatch to set the approximate time on the unit and then let it figure out the precise time from GPS. Also, will the rollover cause time-of-day problems for running Tbolts? That is, would they ride through the rollover and continue to provide the correct date and time as expected (that is, they recognize that a rollover occurred and keep working normally so long as they're not cold-reset) or would they immediately jump back to December 14, 1997 (the Thunderbolt zero date)? According to https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-September/086664.html it looks like they'll output the incorrect date as they cross over the rollover point. That's not good. -- Pete Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list --time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt Rollover
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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt Rollover
Hello, I got a Trimble Thunderbolt a few months ago and implemented a simple monitor on a MCU to display time, no of satellites etc. on a lcd display. While working on this, I found the hint for the upcoming rollover in 2017 in the user manual. I couldn?t find any details on this in the internet - the question for me was if the unit becomes useless in about three years (which would minimize my motivation to put all the stuff in a shiny enclosure) or if simply the calculation of the date will fail. So I took the unit to work and hooked it to a signal generator capable of simulating GPS, GNSS etc. systems. As expected, everything works fine until July, 2017. If I try dates later than this, Lady Heather refuses to display time and date. The strange thing is that time and date are still sent in the serial protocol. August 20th, 2018 is decoded as January, 4t, 1999. As expected, time is OK. So, hopefully this is only a problem in LH and the Thunderbolt will be usable after July, 2017 - I?d be happy to live with a wrong date. Can anyone confirm this observations or does anyone have more information on this topic? Thanks a lot and regards, Matthias, DK4YJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Rollover
Hi Tom, I didn´t save the output, but the generator is located on my workbench, so it´s no problem to repeat this experiment at any time. But I´m afraid it´s a bit more complicated. I need to specify a almanac file on the simulator. Stored was a file from 2012 which was shown to be valid for a month or so. When I put the date in that region, I got a fix almost immediately. The manual says that those almanac files are available on the internet, and ideed I found the current almanac. But I have no clue yet how to generate a valid signal for a time in the future. Putting the date far out of that region lead to a loss of the fix, no matter if before or after 2017. I don´t know to much about the GPS system, but I assume that the week number and TOW are broadcasted by all satellites and can be decoded without valid almanac data. The date in the 0x8F-AB data packet was set to the expected date in the past which seemed to be good news for me. So the only way to be really sure would be to see a real fix with the date in the future. I´ll have a second and a third look in the manual and web, and if this doesn´t help I´ll try to get in touch with one of the experts from the department which developed that box - they should know if and how this is possible... I´ve seen that LH sources are available, but I´m afraid that my C++ knowledge is by far not sufficient to dig into this :-) Let me know if a copy of the TSIP packages is helpfull for you, even without a fix. Any suggestions are welcome! Regards, Matthias Hi Matthias, Thanks much for sharing this information. You are fortunate to have access to a GNSS simulator. May I assume from your comments that the TBolt itself was fine -- it continued to track SV and the 1PPS and 10 MHz outputs were not affected? This is the expected behavior of GPS timing receivers across any sort of 1024 week rollovers. Do you have a binary capture of the TSIP packets I could take a look at? Note the source code to Heather is included in the distribution. Or we can just ask Mark Sims (who wrote LH, and is on the list) to add the 936 week offset back into the timestamps for dates after July 2017. /tvb - Original Message - From: Matthias Jelen matthias.je...@gmx.de To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 12:06 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Rollover Hello, I got a Trimble Thunderbolt a few months ago and implemented a simple monitor on a MCU to display time, no of satellites etc. on a lcd display. While working on this, I found the hint for the upcoming rollover in 2017 in the user manual. I couldn?t find any details on this in the internet - the question for me was if the unit becomes useless in about three years (which would minimize my motivation to put all the stuff in a shiny enclosure) or if simply the calculation of the date will fail. So I took the unit to work and hooked it to a signal generator capable of simulating GPS, GNSS etc. systems. As expected, everything works fine until July, 2017. If I try dates later than this, Lady Heather refuses to display time and date. The strange thing is that time and date are still sent in the serial protocol. August 20th, 2018 is decoded as January, 4t, 1999. As expected, time is OK. So, hopefully this is only a problem in LH and the Thunderbolt will be usable after July, 2017 - I?d be happy to live with a wrong date. Can anyone confirm this observations or does anyone have more information on this topic? Thanks a lot and regards, Matthias, DK4YJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
