Re: [time-nuts] Mail Fraud
Before you go off accusing people of defrauding you. I told you I was traveling out of the country and I would send payment when I returned. I got back last night And no I don't log into financial websites when I am not on my home or corporate network for reasons which should be obvious - google 'firesheep' for more on why this is a BAD idea. You never called the phone # I provided and if you care to check you will see that I have sent you a payment for your items. You will also note that it is in excess of agreed amount to compensate for delay in payment. Scotty Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: ewkeh...@aol.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:15:42 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Mail Fraud Having only been a member for two years I have always considered this group to be of character in more ways than one. That is why I have never asked for money up front before shipping even when I send a HP 5061 A to the UK and D/Ms to New Zealand and Germany. Sadly to say I have now to change my policy, which will also effect the Dual Mixer and the Austron circuit. Does any one know Scot Mc Grath scmcgrath? He ordered after my mentioning of attic clean out $ 125 of HP5061A items like manual, I shipped it, did get delivery confirmation, contacted him repeatedly, no response.Does any one know him? Has any one had a similar experience with him, specifically has any one gotten ripped of from him over the US mail, the local postal inspector would like to know? Sorry to have to post this, but others may already be or could become victims. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061
I'd be interested in the electron multiplier and manual --Original Message-- From: ewkeh...@aol.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com ReplyTo: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5061 Sent: Feb 25, 2011 19:53 Cleaning out an attic that I had not touched in ten years I found some HP 5061A manuals, HP 10811 manuals, AC and DC power cords, plastic feet and most the parts of a unit. If there is interest please contact me directly. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS
Hi Chuck, Serious contesters have directional antennas and most of the new contest quality rigs have FFT spectrum displays and the ability to record several Mhz of spectrum directly to disk for later analysis. The old stereotype of unsophsticated home brewed gear is now a subculture of the Ham community. These are the guys who will hear you and FIND you esp since most of these guys have north of 50k invested in their stations and anything which interferes with getting that last elusive multiplier will be tracked to the end of the earth. and some of them like me are also time-nuts. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:16:13 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS I guess that is why I mentioned something about doing it competently. The FCC so seriously winged the methods usable by hams as to render them effectively useless. A nice direct sequence spread spectrum system with a couple of MHz spread would be well below the background noise of any narrow band receiver. Sure, you could find it with a wide band detector if you were close by, but how would you know that you weren't looking at some other anomaly, like a bad insulator, or trash coming off of fluorescent lamps? Done correctly, you could run spread spectrum just about anywhere you wanted to, and remain undetected. Using direct sequence, you would be so low in power density that it could easily be argued that you were operating within the constraints of a part 15 device's leakage. -Chuck Harris Bob Camp wrote: Hi Remember that this started out running a sequence that was 127 hops long. With something that short, it's pretty likely you will be rude to somebody. Even if you are running a massive hop rate, I can likely walk around and track you down within the average neighborhood. A diode detector behind a bandpass filter and a small-ish directional antenna is about all I'd try to use. I suspect it would also work with one of the power detector chips. Range wise, a lot would depend on just how good your local cable company is at keeping their stuff running right. I'm not really sure the chip would add a lot of range in a normal setting. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS
Hi Chuck I'd see you on my waterfall display. A flexradio is a wonderful thing. The Icom 7x00'es would also see the energy and display it. 73 - Scott N1JIN Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:31:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS Hi Scott, Speaking as a ham, I can tell you that no one will even notice that you are there. Frequency hop SS signals, when done correctly, only land for a few milliseconds at seemingly random frequencies within their band. Because their PN sequence makes them appear random, there aren't any identifiable rhythms to their signals that would signal their presence... just a slight increase in background noise. They really aren't noticeable with the usual narrow bandwidth tuned rice boxes that most hams use. I have played extensively with frequency hoppers, like the PRC117, and absent a wideband receiver, that covers their entire band, you would never know they are there. -Chuck Harris scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking as a ham, if this is tried you will have hams complaining and DF'ing the offending signal. Chuck, you are correct in that no one but the hams care but the reason behind this is that policing the ham bands has been delegated to the hams and specifically certified 'Official Observers'. Once a infraction and especially a.unlicensed infraction is noted penalties are pretty severe and swift. If you want to do this get a 'experimental license' Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS
Speaking as a ham, if this is tried you will have hams complaining and DF'ing the offending signal. Chuck, you are correct in that no one but the hams care but the reason behind this is that policing the ham bands has been delegated to the hams and specifically certified 'Official Observers'. Once a infraction and especially a.unlicensed infraction is noted penalties are pretty severe and swift. If you want to do this get a 'experimental license' Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 01:49:36 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PN sequence generation using GPS jimlux wrote: you *could* call the FCC and ask them... Or, just build whatever, and wait for someone to complain, and say you misinterpreted the rules. Unless you're a jerk, I suspect that they won't fine you or anything else. Given the quality of the rank-and-file ham, and the fact that nobody, but hams really care what happens on the ham bands, who would ever know? I think you could run any form of SS you wanted to on the ham bands for the rest of your life, and as long as you were semi-competent about it (eg. didn't cause interference) you would remain undetected. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] From GPS World - Lightsquared has been giventhegoahead
Trouble is those 'hams with their effing toy radios' have pioneered just about every 'business' service being sold today. Especially true since US business has essentially abandoned industrial research and 'innovative design' in too many cases is copying a reference design from a data sheet. The FCC has made a series of extraordinarily bad decisions since the appointment of Powell in the interest of grubbing for dollars 220 Mhz allocation to UPS (still unused 10 years later) BPL, Sirius/XM repeaters then merger which was explicitly against the law which established the service, DTV transition which left huge areas of the country dark for OTA TV, Spectrum auctions and now Lightsquared which is going to hose 10's of millions of GPS dependent devices as well as break the aviation GPS receivers Ironic since the entire next generation of ATC depends on L1 GPS. The commissioners used to take into account FCC's engineering studies but today they are entirely political animals looking for their post FCC gig at one of the entities they used to regulate. And so they hurry to approve anything set before them which could land them a cushy post FCC job. Until the revolving door is stopped we will continue to have these issues. Hopefully NTIA will step in and stop this idiocy as L1 is also used by the military and Govt Scott N1JIN Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: William H. Fite omni...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 08:27:19 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] From GPS World - Lightsquared has been given thegoahead A good point, Don, and no one should infer from my earlier post that I am any fan of the FCC, either. I found working with them to be a profoundly frustrating experience. My point, though, was that those marketplace decisions are an integral part of the FCC mission. The business people get angry when FCC pays too much attention to technical issues and the technical people get angry when FCC pays too much attention to business issues and both are simultaneously right and wrong. You could not pay me enough to be an FCC commissioner. Bill On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 1:33 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: No head-ripping, Bill, simply that the FCC makes by fiat decisions that belong in the marketplace. As long as it's easier for business to cultivate a mandate instead of competing, I'll continue to dislike the FCC behavior. Part of the blame actually devolves from a great mistake by Reagan, the Federal Register, q.v. Cynical Don William H. Fite Mike, I think you are quite correct. I wanted to make this observation earlier but feelings are clearly running so high on this list that I feared having my head ripped off by individuals of strong conviction. In my view, it is inconceivable that Lightsquared would be allowed to take out GPS service for any significant fraction of the population. There are just too many Nuvis and TomToms and Magellans in use for that to happen, not to mention contractors, road-and-bridge builders, surveyor, etc., etc., etc. I think this, frankly, is a tempest in a teapot. If I may dare to mention another point, it seems to be the firm conviction here that FCC should be exclusively devoted to technical matters that are invariably subject to the Monday morning quarterbacking of every electrical engineer in the United States. Speaking as someone who worked closely with FCC for a number of years, I can assure you that this is not the case. Technical issues are only one part of the FCC mission, however dissatisfying that state of affairs may be to the technically oriented set. FCC is also mandated to consider the economic welfare of the telecommunications industry and the good of all Americans who rely on telecommunications. And, of course, it is a political organization--though I would argue that that aspect of its operation is overstated. If you gentlemen think that FCC arouses the ire of time nuts and others of our ilk, you have no idea how it arouses the ire of those on the commercial/business side of the table. For every one angry engineer ranting about the pols and nitwits who mismanage FCC, there are ten or twenty business people ranting about those-goddamned-hams-and-their-effing-little-toy-radios. FCC is an easy target for anyone on any side of any telecommunications issue who wants to take a shot. Fire away. Bill On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote: At 05:54 PM 2/3/2011, gary wrote... It only take a little radio knowledge to realize how stupid much of what the FCC approves. The FCC raison d'etre is to prevent interference. I don't see any
Re: [time-nuts] 5370B s/n prefixes
Why not just use the output from the 5370B - it already has the support circuitry and a buffered output. Back in my pre-time nut days my 5345 was both counter and lab reference standard the 10.mhz output went to a D/A so all my instruments were referenced to the 10811 in the 5345 Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:29:12 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B s/n prefixes this being my first working 10811, I'd like to play with it. Since I'm setting up the benches to use the eventually distributed output from a T'bolt. I'm thinking of playing with it on its own and run the 5370B externally. Hopefully not to bad of an idea. So whats in the 5370B would just be for 'does it work or not' when not running externally. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: One option was an ECL gate oscillator with a crstal in a T05 sized can. TTL output oscillators of that era had too much jitter to be useful even for short time intervals. Bruce Robert Atkinson wrote: Hi, 10811 was standard. A basic (I think just a TTL can) was an option. This was for users with external standards. Robert G8RPI. --- On Mon, 31/1/11, Pete Lancashirep...@petelancashire.com wrote: From: Pete Lancashirep...@petelancashire.com Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B s/n prefixes To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 31 January, 2011, 22:32 The online manual I found via ... ends at 2311 The unit I purchased is 2602 Is there a more recent online manual ? and if not where there any versions after 2602 ? The other thing I found was it does not have an opt 001 label/tag but it has a 10811 -pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Clock Calibration
Ah now from time nuttery to horology. There are those of us who tinker with analog clocks as well... Generally we 'beat' clocks against 'standard' clocks or more recently a pc application with a microphone over long periods of time generally at least a week and commonly a month. Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:52:49 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Clock Calibration On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: ...how the heck they were able to calibrate a clock to milliseconds per day back then? Let it run for 1,000 days, then you only need to be able to measure to the nearest second to get to ms per day. Or maybe you can measure to 0.1 seconds so it only takes 100 days. The trouble is that using this method you don't know the average error. A good example is an eccentric gear that makes a second hand run fast then slow but if averaged over a long period is near perfect. I doubt they were able to catch stuff like that. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
Now that we are discussing how to restore Rb lamps. Has anyone given any thought to refilling or refluxing the Cs in depleted Cs tubes? Obviously opening would require high vaccum equipment - which is a totally separate category of nut (Or is it?) Scott Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Archiving Timing Data
Have you thought of using RRD (Round Robin Database). RRD is a CSV format which stores value vs time and is generally used for archiving network performance data which is generally kept for years. This format has the advantage of compactness and arbitrary x y scaling. MRTG (Multi-Router Traffic Grapher) is probably the best known application Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 12:15:30 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Archiving Timing Data Hi I'm sitting here running data on a bunch of TBolts and the like. Might that data be useful to others - maybe. Could it be useful 100 years from not - doubtful. I have the ability to create enormous amounts of likely useless trivia. To me the burring the useful nugget in the mountain of trivia is the bigger issue. It's the librarian, not the library that we need more than ever. Without a process for cataloging, indexing, and retrieving data - it's as good as lost. Finding and identifying data from a year or two back - forget it. Storage / duplication is (as mentioned in another post) is cheap and easy. Indexing and cataloging is what makes sure the stuff is retained and useful. Yes I will eventually get to the point I doubt very much I'm the only one taking a mountain of timing data and not properly cataloging it. My guess is that maybe 90% of the list members are in the same boat. How about: 1) A set of not to restrictive data format standards (CSV with a few restrictions ...) 2) A simple / brief method of identifying that data (likely fancier than a text file) 3) A list repository to stuff it away in and retrieve it from. 4) A (to be written) database app to let you rummage around and find things There are a number of *very* nice software programs out there that a lot of us use. Ideally the magic standard format would eventually wok (at least for export) from all of them. Bob On Jan 7, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Perry Sandeen wrote: List, I apologize in advance for my long posting Several weeks ago I posted what were my attempts to save data and my school-of hard-knocks learning curve. Unfortunately several posters just had to nit-pick the process I had used and started a long series of posts and counter-posts about the process while totally missing the message. So I’m going to walk through this again hopefully for the edification of the majority. Just several days ago a 10 year old Canadian girl discovered a super-nova while studying photographic images. Observations by the world’s two most powerful earth based telescopes confirmed here discovery. Now consider the case of the Antikythera mechanism. It was close to 2,000 years ahead of what was eventually developed in Europe. Most likely we never knew about it was that the library in Alexandria Egypt was joyfully burned three times by religious idiots [see Wikipedia]. This mechanism was so complicated and accurate that as least passing knowledge, if not some or all of its drawings, would have been there. In context to the science of that time, it ranked up with what the Hubble telescope accomplished for science today. Which brings us here to today. Governments and private businesses are storing millions of tons of written documents in the evacuated chambers of salt mines of the world [see Wikipedia]. This does beg the question of where the inventory lists are stored. The reason for this is that no other archival grade of mass storage really exists. The last method that I’m aware of is black white polyester microfilm which is rated at 500 years. With the almost total transition to digital cameras, there is no financial incentive to produce the necessary film stock to continue that process. NASA has lost large amounts of acquired data as no equipment now exists to read the information. Current CD/ DVD media is no solution. A 2004 report published in the Journal of Research of the National Institute of Standards and Technology entitled Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs-A Study of Error Rates in Harsh Conditions. You can read it yourself at http://nvl-p.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/109/5/j95sla.pdf. Until someone invents a stabilized glass DVD and perhaps a holographic laser beam to create the needed pits W/O chemicals (embedded gold maybe?) archival data storage W/O paper is a crap-shoot. So where am I going with all this? Glad you asked. No one knows if their or others data will lead to a new discovery or process. Da Vinci certainly didn’t. It can however; lead to learning that can then can be taken to the next level of knowledge and invention. Words cannot express my gratefulness to those
Re: [time-nuts] Problems with Garmin - maybe we should cut them alittle slack
My 0.02 These SAME maps are being used in E911 and other GIS systems so the poor workmanship which is so obvious here has the potential to put lives in danger. Most of the emergency response trucks up here have GPS systems with these maps onboard - not a problem for locals but if we needed outside assistance all bets are off. The current 'good enough' culture is extremely destructive and I'd like to see a return to traditional values. As in test gear which lasts and can be repaired and upgraded not trash which ends up in a landfill in 3 years. Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 09:49:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Problems with Garmin - maybe we should cut them a little slack Well, I won't rant back at you, Dick, but your expectations are way off base. GPS cartographers have to designate billions (yes, billions) of addresses and the fact that they miss a few scarcely justifies a backhand brushoff as shoddy work. Look at it another way: They are producing one product for 10s of millions of customers. The reproduction costs are trivial, so they have hundreds of millions of dollars to get one product right! Can you have a product of this size and complexity that is completely error free. No. No matter how hard you try, the answer remains...no. (References on stochastic processes available on request.) Can you have a product with* fewer* errors? Of course. Can you have it for eighty bucks. Nope. The $80 is for one copy. Try near a $1,000,000,000 for the digital map of the USA. Be a good capitalist and take your choice. -John = ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of problems with Garmin
The companies are Teleglobe and Navteq Garmin uses Navteq cartography as does Ford for their onboard Nav systems A couple of years ago there was a huge controversy about a GPS hardware vendor buying Teleglobe. Thereby leaving no competition in the digital cartography market There always seems to be a discrepancy between postal/street addresses and GPS street addresses Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:44:47 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of problems with Garmin Did you ever actually get a contact inside Garmin? I have the same problem. If you punch in an address, it sends you to the wrong end of a long road. I've been told there are two mapping companies. Anybody know who they are? -John === Hey John, I had the same prob with my Nuvi. For the longest time it thought my house was four houses away. I emailed Garmin and gotnothing. But then, on the most recent map update, the problem was resolved. Good luck with it. Bill On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:45 AM, John Green wpxs...@gmail.com wrote: I just bought a Nuvi 265WT and after I entered my home address, it says home is .2 miles away. I know this is a map error, but the map comes from Garmin. To me, this is unacceptable. I will complain, in vain, I am sure, to Garmin. Sorry to be off topic but when I saw Garmin, I couldn't resist venting a little. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Because the Rockwell-Collins HF80 has sensitivity and selectivity which are avaialble only in Ham gear costing 7000+ definitely not in the 'inexpensive' category, it's transmit signal is also far cleaner than most synthesized HF Rigs. So it makes sense to upgrade the reference oscillator to use this radio with more modern modes such as PSK31 and coherent CW. (Occupied bandwith less than 5 Hz) Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:39:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards Not knowing all the particulars and requirements, I may be off base, but instead of spending money trying to frequency stabilize a 20+ year old radio (HF-80), wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on a modern, inexpensive HF rig? You can even get a TCXO option for some rigs. This should be stable enough for most common HF data protocols. I assume that this is for Amateur use? If not, then my comments may not apply. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3586A HQ PDF Manual available -optimization-
Because of DJVU's limited support and links to Russian malware/Warez sites. If I see a file with djvu encoding I drop it in the recycle bin without opening as a result of infosec day job. Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: K. Szeker szeke...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:16:51 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3586A HQ PDF Manual available -optimization- Hi all, why isn`t please, with respect to all working persones, the DJVU-Formating better as all experiments to reduce some from datavolume? Regularly it needs only ~10%-20% memory as pdf-files... Best greetings! Karesz 2010/12/10 gandal...@aol.com In a message dated 10/12/2010 10:19:08 GMT Standard Time, rbarri...@msn.com writes: I've downloaded the reduced-size PDF and, although not very obvious, there is loss of quality. See the attached comparison and see how sharpness is reduced on the optimized capture at the right side. My goal was to create the highest possible quality manuals, using the big sharp scans found at KO4BB website. I'd prefer to release them as good (and big) as possible so that anyone who needs it can reduce the size (always at a cost). The optimization can be done at any time but the lost bits are lost forever, - I've also found that the Adobe optimisation option needs to be used with care and subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, loss of quaility seems to be inevitable. I never use it now on files intended for distribution. Whilst modern scanners can produce excellent quality in terms of resolution etc the two big problems I've observed with them, and with the scanning techniques they seem to encourage, are the very large default file sizes they tend to produce and the much reduced contrast, with the latter usually being much more of a nuisance. Both seem to be due to the way in which everything gets treated as colour or greyscale and the only way I've found so far found of dealing with this on completed PDFs is to extract all the pages as TIF files and process them individually for contrast enhancement etc, and superfluous color depth reduction, in something like Photoshop or PaintShopPro. I've had some good results with this but you sure need one heck of a lot of patience and spare time, so mostly these days I give thanks for large hard drives and just try to live with it:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Time Code generator
When audio/video time code is specified if its on a audio track its called LTC or Longitudinal Time Code and is generally IRIG-B, This is very uncommon these days as it went out of common use about the time 1 reel to reel was discontinued. Most common today on NTSC is VITC or vertical interval time code. Its encoded as a series of pulses in the vertical blanking interval. The display is generally called a 'Screen Burner' Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Collins, Graham coll...@navcanada.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 07:28:13 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Time Code generator On another list to which I subscribe, the question was asked about the suitability of recording WWV 2.5mhz audio as one track when recording off the air signals of interest as a time reference. The person who asked the question didn't really state his intentions but they seem very similar to my immediate needs. That is, simply a time reference - that is the time, the start of the minute, and periodic references (i.e. seconds) between the announcements. It seems that recording the audio of something like WWV or CHU is ideal. However, another approach would be recording a more proper time code signal as you might have available from a precision clock. Of course, a decoder would also be required. A quick Google search turned up lots of leads which I have yet to sort through. In the interim I thought I would pose the question to the learned members of this group for their suggestions. Keep in mind KISS and that a very high degree of accuracy is not required. Is there an opensource/freeware PC app that will generate an appropriate time code signal that can be recorded on one track of an audio recorder (either PC based i.e. Audacity or standalone) that will also decode via soundcard or other input? Cheers, Graham ve3gtc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Time Code generator
Thanks for update on current LTC usage!. In the studios I worked in in college with the old type-c decks we did use IRIG-B but even then everyone was moving to VITC. As editing was moving away from the razor blade and tape era to deck to deck on U-Matic decks! Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: jimlux jim...@earthlink.net Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:20:14 To: scmcgr...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time Code generator scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote: When audio/video time code is specified if its on a audio track its called LTC or Longitudinal Time Code and is generally IRIG-B, This is very uncommon these days as it went out of common use about the time 1 reel to reel was discontinued. IRIG is uncommon in the audio/video industry, but still used in the telemetry and lab environment (IRIG is the Inter-Range Instrumentation Group, at White Sands Missile Range, after all). I confess I doubt anyone is still using magnetic tape with FM subcarriers on the range these days, but you never know.. government facilities tend to use really old equipment for a long, long time since the accounting rules don't use depreciation (you buy it once, and it's free after that), there's limited capital budgets for replacement, but often labor is available to repair/limp along. At JPL, we use IRIG to transfer time around between racks, particularly for things like MIL-STD-1553B monitors, which timestamp the bus traffic to the nearest microsecond or fraction, sync'd by the IRIG input. There's something really convenient about needing just one cable/fiber to perform the function. Audio LTC is encoded differently than IRIG.. Biphase manchester, different bit stream, different time encoding, etc. Conceptually similar though. Any programmable hardware that can generate IRIG can probably generate LTC as well. OTOH, if you built your IRIG generator out of discrete 7400 series TTL, you've got a lot of white wires to convert to LTC. Most common today on NTSC is VITC or vertical interval time code. Its encoded as a series of pulses in the vertical blanking interval. The display is generally called a 'Screen Burner' Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Collins, Graham coll...@navcanada.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 07:28:13 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Time Code generator ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Time Code generator
Professional cameras have a integrated VITC generator which in addition to the time add the frame index to the time code which allows for creation of frame level Edit Decision Lists. Consumer cameras cheat and synthesize time. If you run a consumer tape through a professional system you will not have a time index. And one will need to be added Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:54:15 To: scmcgr...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time Code generator Adding time code to video would be redundant. All video is already time coded. It turns out the time code is required to support editing. Editors don't actually move bits of video data around. What they do is create and modify an EDL which is a text file with a list of all the cuts and effects to be applied. The cuts are defined by the time. For example a close up of an actor's face might be specified at camera roll XX from time T1 to time T2. Later during final rendering the software will search the video data for frames with the required time codes But many consumer level cameras fake it by defining time = zero at the start of a tape or the first frame in memory. If absolute time needs to be record on a consumer level camera then I'd shoot a few frames of a digital clock and then later in a video editor adjust the time code OK, all that said there is a group of people who routinely record WWV audio on their video. Amateur occultation timers do this. These people use video cameras through telescopes to record when a asteroid passes in front of a star and blocks its light. This can produce very acuate orbital data for the asteroid and if enough people all over the world record it you can even deduce the shape of the asteroid. On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:27 AM, scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote: When audio/video time code is specified if its on a audio track its called LTC or Longitudinal Time Code and is generally IRIG-B, This is very uncommon these days as it went out of common use about the time 1 reel to reel was discontinued. Most common today on NTSC is VITC or vertical interval time code. Its encoded as a series of pulses in the vertical blanking interval. The display is generally called a 'Screen Burner' Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Collins, Graham coll...@navcanada.ca Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 07:28:13 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Time Code generator On another list to which I subscribe, the question was asked about the suitability of recording WWV 2.5mhz audio as one track when recording off the air signals of interest as a time reference. The person who asked the question didn't really state his intentions but they seem very similar to my immediate needs. That is, simply a time reference - that is the time, the start of the minute, and periodic references (i.e. seconds) between the announcements. It seems that recording the audio of something like WWV or CHU is ideal. However, another approach would be recording a more proper time code signal as you might have available from a precision clock. Of course, a decoder would also be required. A quick Google search turned up lots of leads which I have yet to sort through. In the interim I thought I would pose the question to the learned members of this group for their suggestions. Keep in mind KISS and that a very high degree of accuracy is not required. Is there an opensource/freeware PC app that will generate an appropriate time code signal that can be recorded on one track of an audio recorder (either PC based i.e. Audacity or standalone) that will also decode via soundcard or other input? Cheers, Graham ve3gtc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Wish-list
And on that note recall that the TBolt is a 'Disciplined' oscillator... Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Rix Seacord eseac...@verizon.net Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:47:33 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Wish-list Charles I'm not sure it was the source but there is a lady heather charactor on the Los Vegas CSI tv series. Toodles Rix Seacord K2AVP eseac...@verizon.net 845-628-0892 914-262-9186 On 12/4/2010 5:16 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: *I'm still trying to learn who Lady Heather is...or was.* http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22lady+heather%22 Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A/58503A Help
Btw the telco 48 volt supply is in reality -48 ie positive ground system. So be careful with grounding esp in common with other gear Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:38:18 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A/58503A Help I have run the Z38XX software but I dont really understand yet what the charts are telling me, outside of the sat signal strength and pattern. There is lots and lots of info on the Z3801A out on the web. (Time sink warning.) Here is a good place to start: http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm google will find lots more. I suggest getting a copy of the User's Guide and reading through it. Here is one. www.leapsecond.com/museum/z3801a/097-z3801-01-iss-1.pdf My biggest concern is that the power supply that came with the package is 24 volts and the back of the box indicates that it requires a 36 to 60 volt power supply. There are two versions of the Z3801A, one for 48V and one for 24V. I assume 48 is telco and 24 is cell phone. 48 volts from lead acid batteries is really 54 if they are fully charged. (13.6 for your 12 V car) Take the cover off and look inside to see what you really have. (If you haven't already taken the cover off, this is a good excuse.) There is a power supply board. It's on top where you can see it without taking anything else apart. It's got a couple of DC-DC converter bricks. Maybe you can find some input voltage ratings. Most of those bricks will work over a wide input range, probably wider than spec if you aren't pulling full rated output current. Or ask the seller. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT: NTP server questions
I think we are getting precision and accuracy confused, And they are quite different, In the time-nut world we use them as synonyms, In reality its possible to have a precise measurement which is not accurate (think instrument with bad timebase it's repeatable and reads out to a high degree of precision but it's INACCURATE). We can also have a accurate measurement in with resolution in gross units like minutes or seconds but be highly ACCURATE but have a low degree of PRECISION. What's needed is ACCURATE time referenced to a external standard to within milliseconds with a resolution of 1 second as application does not understand any unit smaller than 1 second. Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 00:34:00 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: NTP server questions There are sometimes delays up to 30 minutes or so due to processing of sensor data till it makes it into my system which is also way out in the field. Imagine a shipping pallet full of equipment that gets air dropped into the middle of nowhere. That IS my network, and it has no connection to anything but the sensors deployed with it. Maybe on a good day I'll have a wireless or satellite connection back to another network that may or may not have a time server on it. I can't ever assume this will be the case. I will, however, be rotating hard disks full of collected sensor data for off-line analysis (forensic stuff) at a less remote location. I will have spare parts (including NTP servers) at this location that will be visited daily. I really only need time to one second. Most file systems don't have any finer granularity and we're not making scientific measurements. We have a system to display transient events inside of a time window that can be arbitrarily set, but typically no wider than 15 minutes. If the data is 15 minutes old, it's not important anymore. If the data is 40,000 years in the future due to a bad time stamp like when it's marked in miliseconds since the epoch (unix time) instead of seconds, we won't ever see it since it too is outside of my window. If it's 4 seconds old, that's okay. I'll see it inside of my time window. The problem with arrival times is that things I'm looking for don't happen the instant I get alerted. I may want to go back and look at when events happened and compare that with when I was notified so I can see where the bottle necks are. If I have a 5 second delay and 5 seconds of clock drift in the same direction, I don't see any bottleneck which is why I need to know roughly what time it is at each sensor, computer, and server at least to one second. It's rare when something I'm looking for comes directly into one of my systems. Almost always there is some processing going on by other teams on the project that are working independently from my team trying to make use of some of the data in different ways. They would then generate the alert message into my system. One of these teams that created data used a TAI reference clock and the folks using this data used UTC (as do I) and it really caused problems since one set of sensors is saying some event happened at a particular time and yet, there was nothing there at that time according to other sensors. I think in this case it was cars driving down a street (I have no idea how they actually determine this since I just ingest data) and another group took video data to generate tracks for vehicles that were not there at the time the vehicle detectors said they were. 34 second delay (TAI vs UTC) means I'm more than a half mile away from the sensor if I'm going about 60mph. If I'm trying to predict when a car will be near another sensor based on bad data, we'll never be looking at the right time. -Bob On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: rdarling...@gmail.com said: That's exactly what we've done in the past (setting it when on the network and letting the clock do what it wants) and that's fine. The actual time isn't as important as the agreement on what time it is. This is certainly the cheaper way to go and is becoming a viable option. How long does it take for data to get from way out in the field to your system? Earlier, you said that you only needed time to within a second. That's a long time for networking. If it's only 100 ms (pulled out of the air) for the data to get from the sensor to your system, then forget all the timestamps as the local system and just use the arrival time at your system. If a significant part of the delay is things like RS-232 baud rates, you can correct for that constant offset. (or semi-constant if the length of a message
Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility
The Phrack article's jammer attacks the offset frequencies. Phrack.org/issues.html?issue=60id=13 This article shows just how vulnerable L1 GPS is Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 01:29:56 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS jamming susceptibility On 11/23/2010 12:19 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi There is *very* little signal hitting the ground from a normal GPS bird. Even a few mili watts close at hand is going to be an enormous overload. The typical GPS does not use a lot of bits in the front end A/D. I suspect that if you tuned your little gizmo down to the FM broadcast band, it would take out your favorite FM station quite nicely. Same would be true of your cell phone if you tuned it there. Jamming from close by isn't all that hard to figure out, or to implement. There are switching power supplies that make wonderful jammers for low frequency signals. If it's RF, it can be jammed. The real question is can you jam it from a reasonable distance? There are a few reports and articles going into the susceptibility of civilian receivers to jammers. Some public texts have also been written, so the field is not completely covered only on green paper. A CW jammer will basically grab the AGC and as it gains down the CW the GPS reception is gained down with it. In particular 1-bit receivers is susceptable to this effect. 1,5-bit receivers with separate AGC detection was developed and was able to combat the CW jammer situation. The relative time when the code can control the bits quickly becomes just a fraction since a sine spends long times in the extremes far away from detection limits. Next thing to attack is lack of supression in the C/A code, and list of offset-frequencies which is more susceptible can be found. Noise jammers is also possible. Things like these alongside the weak signal makes civilian receivers quite sensitive, so quite a bit of line-of-sight distance can be jammed with a fairly low output. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A real-world precision timing need....
Why not purchase one of the existing ballistic chronographs and upgrade the time base? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:49:06 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A real-world precision timing need Hi The original request was to measure both velocity down range and time of flight. They certainly are related, however the relation (especially around the speed of sound) is difficult to estimate. If you are dealing with a projectile that drops sub-sonic as it goes down range, velocity is indeed worth checking. - If you own the range (800 yard range in the back yard hmmm...): Head over to the local cable TV outfit's scrap yard. Pick up a spool of what ever they are throwing away. Dig a trench and burry some out to each observation point. Coax in the ground is going to be much more stable timing wise than anything else you can get for free. With it buried it will last a bit longer than wire on the surface. Bob On Nov 1, 2010, at 1:37 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Oct 31, 2010, at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp wrote: The gotcha is that the gong can move / twist when hit. The plate buried in front of the electronics has to just sit there and take it. More energy transfer to the anchored plate. I'm sure there are alloys that will get you under 1, the issue will be making sure you have the right one... Ah, good point. Also, it won't matter if the steel stops the bullet from penetrating if the shock turns the enclosed electronics and optics into powder. As an aside, when I bought my high power rifle rated steel gong target (which, sadly, I haven't taken for a test drive yet), I looked at pre-shot samples from about four different vendors who had displays at the gun show, and there was a noticeable difference in the steels that they used. The vendor I chose had little more than faint dimples surrounded by lead spatters where .308 rounds allegedly hit their target, while other vendors had substantial craters. Back to the topic at hand: If muzzle velocity and time of flight alone would provide enough data (*), then one possibility would be a downrange target with an attached transducer (piezo?) to register the bullet impact, with a wire pair going back to the shooting bench. In this case, the downrange sensor would be cheap to replace when it eventually fails, and all of the expensive/delicate stuff would be back at the shooting bench. (*) I haven't studied ballistic equations carefully enough yet to know whether this would provide enough information to estimate fun details like ballistic coefficient. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net Web page: http://www.nf6x.net/ GnuPG public key available from my web page. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A real-world precision timing need....
Initial suggestion would give muzzle velocity only - need coffee before commenting A piezo detector bonded to the plate would give time of impact. I'm interested in how you would compute group size Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: scmcgr...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:57:43 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: scmcgr...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A real-world precision timing need Why not purchase one of the existing ballistic chronographs and upgrade the time base? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:49:06 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A real-world precision timing need Hi The original request was to measure both velocity down range and time of flight. They certainly are related, however the relation (especially around the speed of sound) is difficult to estimate. If you are dealing with a projectile that drops sub-sonic as it goes down range, velocity is indeed worth checking. - If you own the range (800 yard range in the back yard hmmm...): Head over to the local cable TV outfit's scrap yard. Pick up a spool of what ever they are throwing away. Dig a trench and burry some out to each observation point. Coax in the ground is going to be much more stable timing wise than anything else you can get for free. With it buried it will last a bit longer than wire on the surface. Bob On Nov 1, 2010, at 1:37 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Oct 31, 2010, at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp wrote: The gotcha is that the gong can move / twist when hit. The plate buried in front of the electronics has to just sit there and take it. More energy transfer to the anchored plate. I'm sure there are alloys that will get you under 1, the issue will be making sure you have the right one... Ah, good point. Also, it won't matter if the steel stops the bullet from penetrating if the shock turns the enclosed electronics and optics into powder. As an aside, when I bought my high power rifle rated steel gong target (which, sadly, I haven't taken for a test drive yet), I looked at pre-shot samples from about four different vendors who had displays at the gun show, and there was a noticeable difference in the steels that they used. The vendor I chose had little more than faint dimples surrounded by lead spatters where .308 rounds allegedly hit their target, while other vendors had substantial craters. Back to the topic at hand: If muzzle velocity and time of flight alone would provide enough data (*), then one possibility would be a downrange target with an attached transducer (piezo?) to register the bullet impact, with a wire pair going back to the shooting bench. In this case, the downrange sensor would be cheap to replace when it eventually fails, and all of the expensive/delicate stuff would be back at the shooting bench. (*) I haven't studied ballistic equations carefully enough yet to know whether this would provide enough information to estimate fun details like ballistic coefficient. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net Web page: http://www.nf6x.net/ GnuPG public key available from my web page. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842-- WARNING!
Yes I do have the manual - I also travel to all corners of the known universe and if I'm home I might be there for 24-48 hours. I finally got it scanned and sent a copy to chuck. I overestimated my ability to scan and return the manual in a timely fashion. I also have paid for and never taken delivery of equipment for the same reason in many cases running into thousands of dollars. I've lost stuff shipped to the UPS store because I have not been able to claim it in time. Chuck and the list I apologize for holding on to your manual for so long every time I come home I see it sitting in its box on my desk like the damn sword of damocles. Tell me where you want it to go because I am home for at least one day Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:05:39 To: scmcgr...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842-- WARNING! WARNING: Scott McGrath borrowed an HP Rb standard manual from a good friend of mine and HAS NOT RETURNED IT, despite repeated requests both on and off lists. He has made lame excuses for well over a year. Details upon request. Be Warned!! -John = Dick I'd like to buy your antenna if not already sold I've restored one of these receivers and was about to build antenna! Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Dick Moore rich...@hughes.net Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 15:22:18 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842 I used to have one of these marvelous receivers and sold it. I still have the WWVB/60kHz shielded loop antenna that I made for it and although it is big, at about 30 x 30 x 2 or so, I believe it will ship FedEx or UPS OK. It's free to anyone who'll pay the shipping. It's made out of copper pipe and works quite well, and is tuned for the 5842 at 60kHz. Best, Dick Moore On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:50 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 5 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:34:57 -0600 From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 990bd60b3c5d084910c10c8855912...@pumpkinbrook.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone that wants them. Best regards, Paul Davis - K9MR -- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:42:16 -0400 From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/DymecDY-5842 VLF receiver? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: b7ea2d4ab6f34ab19da25cfdc85a6...@franke Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original I am very interested. Do you have any images? John Franke WA4WDL Portsmouth, VA 23703 -- From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:34 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in
Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842
I'd like to buy your antenna if not already taken Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 23:40:52 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842 Dick did you ever try an unscreened loop ?? they should be just as good if not better at 60kHz. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Dick Moore rich...@hughes.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842 I used to have one of these marvelous receivers and sold it. I still have the WWVB/60kHz shielded loop antenna that I made for it and although it is big, at about 30 x 30 x 2 or so, I believe it will ship FedEx or UPS OK. It's free to anyone who'll pay the shipping. It's made out of copper pipe and works quite well, and is tuned for the 5842 at 60kHz. Best, Dick Moore On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:50 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 5 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:34:57 -0600 From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 990bd60b3c5d084910c10c8855912...@pumpkinbrook.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone that wants them. Best regards, Paul Davis - K9MR -- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:42:16 -0400 From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: b7ea2d4ab6f34ab19da25cfdc85a6...@franke Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original I am very interested. Do you have any images? John Franke WA4WDL Portsmouth, VA 23703 -- From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:34 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone that wants them. Best regards, Paul Davis - K9MR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:50:17 -0500 From: Brian Kirby kilodelta4foxm...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 4ca665a9.1090...@gmail.com Content-Type:
Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842
Dick I'd like to buy your antenna if not already sold I've restored one of these receivers and was about to build antenna! Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Dick Moore rich...@hughes.net Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 15:22:18 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842 I used to have one of these marvelous receivers and sold it. I still have the WWVB/60kHz shielded loop antenna that I made for it and although it is big, at about 30 x 30 x 2 or so, I believe it will ship FedEx or UPS OK. It's free to anyone who'll pay the shipping. It's made out of copper pipe and works quite well, and is tuned for the 5842 at 60kHz. Best, Dick Moore On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:50 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 5 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:34:57 -0600 From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 990bd60b3c5d084910c10c8855912...@pumpkinbrook.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone that wants them. Best regards, Paul Davis - K9MR -- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:42:16 -0400 From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/DymecDY-5842 VLF receiver? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: b7ea2d4ab6f34ab19da25cfdc85a6...@franke Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original I am very interested. Do you have any images? John Franke WA4WDL Portsmouth, VA 23703 -- From: ziggy9 zig...@pumpkinbrook.com Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:34 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5 crystals in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL, WWVB). It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here. So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone that wants them. Best regards, Paul Davis - K9MR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:50:17 -0500 From: Brian Kirby kilodelta4foxm...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 4ca665a9.1090...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed You might consider contacting Dr. Ken Kuhn -- kennathak...@gmail.com check his HP museum at http://www.kennethkuhn.com/hpmuseum/ Brian Kirby KD4FM On 10/1/2010 5:34 PM, ziggy9 wrote: Fellow time-nuts: I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF
Re: [time-nuts] Timing Distribution in Mountainous Terrain
If you need that kind of timing accuracy in the absence of GPS then Cs is probably the only answer. Dark fiber would also work but the infrastructure and fiber leasing costs would probably be much more expensive than local Cs Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Ralph Smith ra...@ralphsmith.org Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:48:54 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Timing Distribution in Mountainous Terrain The network is spread over about 250-300 US miles. Ralph On Thu, September 9, 2010 12:01 pm, Didier Juges wrote: How widely spread is your network? Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Ralph Smith ra...@ralphsmith.org Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 11:37:46 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Timing Distribution in Mountainous Terrain We have a requirement for approximately ten radio sites to be synchronized to within 30 ns of each other. Ordinarily you could throw in an appropriate GPSDO and be done with it. However, we also have the reqirement to be able to operate independent of GPS for up to six days. If we were able to have each site within line of sight of another, and could form a network including all sites, we could do differential time measurement between the mutually visible sites and correct in that way. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Absolute time accuracy is not critical, but relative time accuracy is. Does anyone out there have any ideas? Thanks, Ralph AB4RS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
